Reincarnation.....

For all of you who don't believe in reincarnation, isn't jesus coming back during the end of times a form of reincarnation? Any thoughts....Just asking

[Edited on 9-5-2003 by abstract_alao]

And the dead will be risen from the graves, and judged. Reincarnation?

Originally posted by abstract_alao
For all of you who don't believe in reincarnation, isn't jesus coming back during the end of times a form of reincarnation? Any thoughts....Just asking

[Edited on 9-5-2003 by abstract_alao]

Jesus Christ was taken up''''Body and soul''''........

When doubting Thomas did not beleive it was Him.....Jesus Christ showed him that He was Jesus Christ..........and Jesus Christ remained with them for 40 days............[Gospel of John 20:26_29]

This is a prefiguration of ''souls''' of the dead remaining on earth for 40 days.............
The Christian Orthodox have Prayer service for the 40 days for the ''soul''' just like the '''Jews''' of the Old Testament did.................And still do..........only the ''Jews'' do not accept the Resurection of Jesus Christ..........The Jewish Tradition is basically the same as athe Orthodox , but without Christ..........
They marry.......clergy
They have prayers of the dead.......as it is written in the Bible........i have mentioned before.
All people will be ''resurrected '' at the Judgement Day , as Maddas said ...........below.....

The resurrection will be the same body that ''died'' as said in Genesis.....
'''''till thou return unto the ground (that is , until you die)for out of it wast taken :for dust thou art , and unto dust shalt thou return [Gen .3 :16-19 ]
The Devil, who concealed himself in the serpant responsible for man's sin....
''Because thou hast done this , cursed art thou ......and He said that between him and man there will be a struggle, in which men will be victors , specifically :The SEED of the woman shall crush thy head ,
and thou shalt strike at his heel [Gen 3 :15 ]that is , from woman there will come forth an offspring------the Saviour of the world ,Who will be born of a virgin ,
will conquer the Devil and save man ,
but for this ,
He Himself must suffer.......
The promise of God concerning the coming of the Saviour was received by men with faith......
In order that men would not forget the promise of God ,
God taught them to offer sacrifices.
He commanded them to sacrifice a bull,
a lamb or a goat, and to burn them with Prayer for the forgiveness of sins
and with faith in the future Saviour.
Such a sacrifice was a ''Prefiguration '' of the Saviour ,
Who had to suffer
and pour out His blood for our sins ,
that is,
by His all pure blood to wash our souls from sin
and make them clean.......to be once more worthy of Paradise...


[Edited on 10-5-2003 by helen670]

Originally posted by helen670

Originally posted by abstract_alao
For all of you who don't believe in reincarnation, isn't jesus coming back during the end of times a form of reincarnation? Any thoughts....Just asking

[Edited on 9-5-2003 by abstract_alao]

Jesus Christ was taken up''''Body and soul''''........

When doubting Thomas did not beleive it was Him.....Jesus Christ showed him that He was Jesus Christ..........and Jesus Christ remained with them for 40 days............[Gospel of John 20:26_29]

This is a prefiguration of ''souls''' of the dead remaining on earth for 40 days.............
The Christian Orthodox have Prayer service for the 40 days for the ''soul''' just like the '''Jews''' of the Old Testament did.................And still do..........only the ''Jews'' do not accept the Resurection of Jesus Christ..........The Jewish Tradition is basically the same as athe Orthodox , but without Christ..........
They marry.......clergy
They have prayers of the dead.......as it is written in the Bible........i have mentioned before.
All people will be ''resurrected '' at the Judgement Day , as Maddas said ...........below.....

The resurrection will be the same body that ''died'' as said in Genesis.....
'''''till thou return unto the ground (that is , until you die)for out of it wast taken :for dust thou art , and unto dust shalt thou return [Gen .3 :16-19 ]
The Devil, who concealed himself in the serpant responsible for man's sin....
''Because thou hast done this , cursed art thou ......and He said that between him and man there will be a struggle, in which men will be victors , specifically :The SEED of the woman shall crush thy head ,
and thou shalt strike at his heel [Gen 3 :15 ]that is , from woman there will come forth an offspring------the Saviour of the world ,Who will be born of a virgin ,
will conquer the Devil and save man ,
but for this ,
He Himself must suffer.......
The promise of God concerning the coming of the Saviour was received by men with faith......
In order that men would not forget the promise of God ,
God taught them to offer sacrifices.
He commanded them to sacrifice a bull,
a lamb or a goat, and to burn them with Prayer for the forgiveness of sins
and with faith in the future Saviour.
Such a sacrifice was a ''Prefiguration '' of the Saviour ,
Who had to suffer
and pour out His blood for our sins ,
that is,
by His all pure blood to wash our souls from sin
and make them clean.......to be once more worthy of Paradise...

"Savior" ?

Seems like an Insult to God (according to your book).

"I, even I, am the LORD. Beside me there is no savior." - Isaiah 43:11

I'd hate to have to find clear, unambiguous, definitive NT references on this (one is generally on slippery groun when applying the OT exegetically to the NT).
However, traditionally at least (a) Christ will not be "flesh" at the second coming (search "parousia" maybe) and the risen who are saved will assume "incorruptible' bodies: i.e. not "flesh" in any sense and hence not, in any clear sense, "reinCARNation".
Sinners, it appears are, in some sense, "reincarnated" and their corruptible flesh will die.
This can only be debated, not asserted, and is a thorny problem of philosophy, patristics and scholastics.
But -as a relatively definitive statement, Christ will not be incarnate.

You see Another -one ........that's where there's a big difference in the Scriptures of The New Testament and the qu'ran.................The new Testament has proof of Jesus Christ Resurrection.................The Qu'ran on the other hand ....................Goes out of their way to LIE and falsify of what the truth is..............

If the QU'RAN is to be beleived..............it has to be consistent with what it sais....................
The qu'ran sais of Jesus Christ being born of the ''Virgin Mary'' being a miracle............
But then goes on to DOUBT the whole thing.........

Another-one...............THAT'S WHERE THERE IS THE DIFFERENCE........The Qu'ran has gone and CONTRADICTED ITSELF.................
No where in the Bible is there such CONTRADICTION.......
Go on....look it up for YOUR SELF........


Islam believes in the virgin birth of Jesus, his miracles and that He was a prophet, and even the Messiah. On the other hand, the Qur�an teaches that Jesus was only a created being: "Praise be to Allah who has never begotten a son; who has no partner in His Sovereignty" (Sura:17, Ayat:111). Elsewhere the Qur�an states:

"In blasphemy indeed are those that say that God is Christ the son of Mary. Say: �Who then has the least power against God, if His Will were to destroy Christ the Son of Mary, his mother, and

all � everyone there is on earth? For to God belongs the dominion of the heavens and earth, and all that is between. He creates what He pleases. For God has power over all things�" (Sura: 5, Ayat:17).


So why is it that the Muslims Do not beleive in the Son of God..........................???

Originally posted by helen670
You see Another -one ........that's where there's a big difference in the Scriptures of The New Testament and the qu'ran.................

Of course there is. Bible = Lies, lies, lies, and lies again.

The new Testament has proof of Jesus Christ Resurrection.................

If the Bible has anything at all - it is not proof of anything

The Qu'ran on the other hand ....................Goes out of their way to LIE and falsify of what the truth is..............

no

If the QU'RAN is to be beleived..............it has to be consistent with what it sais....................
The qu'ran sais of Jesus Christ being born of the ''Virgin Mary'' being a miracle............
But then goes on to DOUBT the whole thing.........

It doesn't doubt anything.

Another-one...............THAT'S WHERE THERE IS THE DIFFERENCE........The Qu'ran has gone and CONTRADICTED ITSELF.................

There is no contradiction in the Qur'an.

No where in the Bible is there such CONTRADICTION.......
Go on....look it up for YOUR SELF........

There are contradictions on every corner of the Bible. It's so full of it that it's falling out on every side.

Islam believes in the virgin birth of Jesus, his miracles and that He was a prophet, and even the Messiah. On the other hand, the Qur�an teaches that Jesus was only a created being: "Praise be to Allah who has never begotten a son; who has no partner in His Sovereignty" (Sura:17, Ayat:111). Elsewhere the Qur�an states:

"In blasphemy indeed are those that say that God is Christ the son of Mary. Say: �Who then has the least power against God, if His Will were to destroy Christ the Son of Mary, his mother, and

all � everyone there is on earth? For to God belongs the dominion of the heavens and earth, and all that is between. He creates what He pleases. For God has power over all things�" (Sura: 5, Ayat:17).

What's your point lol

So why is it that the Muslims Do not beleive in the Son of God..........................???

Jesus is not God, nor the son of God.

Jesus is a messenger of God who loved God.

La Ilaha Il Allah Muhammedun RasulAllah.

Peace.

Originally posted by Estragon
I'd hate to have to find clear, unambiguous, definitive NT references on this (one is generally on slippery groun when applying the OT exegetically to the NT).
However, traditionally at least (a) Christ will not be "flesh" at the second coming (search "parousia" maybe) and the risen who are saved will assume "incorruptible' bodies: i.e. not "flesh" in any sense and hence not, in any clear sense, "reinCARNation".
Sinners, it appears are, in some sense, "reincarnated" and their corruptible flesh will die.
This can only be debated, not asserted, and is a thorny problem of philosophy, patristics and scholastics.
But -as a relatively definitive statement, Christ will not be incarnate.

Etragon.........the RISEN who are saved is the FIRST RESURECTION ''that have RISEN'' in Christ........
All mankind will be Judged..............
The first Resurection''' is the people before Christ.......
Then all will rise that died after ''the Resurection''......Chialism........the beleif of the 1000 years reign of Christ was condemned in the 3rd council of Nicea.........''hence the creed.............And His kingdom shall have no end...............
The creed is still the same in the orthodox church.......
Because there are so many Christian denominations, people are so mixed up as to what is real........
HENCE THE '''''so that when the Son of man cometh,
shall He find faith on earth?[Luke 18 :8 ]
''''And except those days be shortened,
there should be no flesh be saved :
but for the elects' sake
those days shall be shortened '''[Matthew 24 :22]

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone,
where the beast and the false prophet are ,
and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever ''[Revelation 20 :10 ]

And whether or not Christ will be incarnate (which I - misguidedly, obviously - thought was the topic here) is addressed precisely where, in this posting?

And it's drivel-time again: 'the beleif [sic] of the 1000 years reign of Christ was condemned in the 3rd council of Nicea.."
There never was a 3rd Council of Nicaea (this cyber-spammer may be confusing, in his/her/its benighted ignorance, Nicaea with Ephesus) and there is absolutely no robust evidence that "chiliasm" ( let us spell it correctly, cyber-chums, and it is no more than the Greek for 1,000 as in kilo-gramme - "millennialism" would be less pompous though perhaps even more challenging as far as spelling is concerned!) was condemned at any ecumenical council.
As Estragon says: there is nothing that cannot be interpreted entirely unambiguously, and the cut'n'paste drivel here about the Second Coming can justify anything from the Moravian Brethren to the Mormons, via the Jehovah's Witnesses.
Note the difference between an Estagon who asserts quite simply "one cannot say" and this sort of poster who -without even knowing the facts or making any attempt at explication posts rot with a false air of certainty.
It's Brian-time, again.

Originally posted by Estragon
And whether or not Christ will be incarnate (which I - misguidedly, obviously - thought was the topic here) is addressed precisely where, in this posting?

Sorry if i jumped the subject.....

"God became what we are so that we may become what He is.

The New Testament, especially the Gospels, is very important to Orthodoxy because here is found a written witness to the perfect revelation of God in the Incarnation of the Son of God, in the person of Jesus Christ.
While the Bible is treasured as a valuable written record of God's revelation, it does not contain wholly that revelation.
The Bible is viewed as only one expression of God's revelation in the on-going life of His people.
Scripture is part of the treasure of Faith which is known as Tradition.
Tradition means that which is "handed on" from one generation to another. (as is spoken of in the New Testament)
God became man in the person of Jesus Christ not to institute a new philosophy or code of conduct, but primarily to bestow upon us "new life"


Did that help???
when He comes, He will be Christ incarnate.....fully man and God.......but not to reign for 1000 yrs.....all will see Him in the clouds.........and Judgement shall commense.....
Does that make sense???

Anyone remotely interested in "Spamming for Amateurs 101" might spend a moment reviewing the (generally ignored) postings of this person beginning with a vast cut'npaste citing among others a (misspellt) Lactantius, and going on to other scarcely-grasped allusions to "dogmatics", John of Kronstadt, and Heaven knows what else.
These characters have, I'm sure, little files of drivel that they regularly cut'n'paste on the scattergun principle.
Can you say "miracle water"? - I knew you could.

April 3rd would be the starting point, unless this person is also "helen". I think it's a team effort myself. But unlike these people, Estragon is always prepared to admit that he doesn't know.

Here is my opinion on Helen;

She is a hard-core Christian Orthodox who is being fed anti-islamic garbage by friends and possibly parents as well who get all their Islamic sources from the Media - probably Fox News (no offense).

She likes to create topics on the board which deal with her church, pasting the entire article off a website and adding a comment from the Bible that suits her beliefs (circling what you like, throwing away what you dont like).

She hates the religion of Islam and has a HUGE misconception of it as well. She tried several times to bash it by using the "jihad this" "jihad that" garbage which was refuted by me immediately. Nevertheless, she skips my refutals and goes onto something entirely different. Ignorance and concrete thinking.

She believes in a "Trinity" which does not exist nor is taught in the Bible, and she believes that Jesus (peace and blessings be upon him) is God - which Jesus never claimed to be.

She never read the Qur'an NOR the Bible, and is unaware that her religion forbids freedom of religion - enforces power over others - condemns equality of human beings - degrades women - and strongly enforces slavery.

If she was aware of these facts (which she ignores whenever i post verses supporting it), she might be careful about criticizing someone else's beliefs.

I also have reason to believe that she is a former member of ATS who slightly changed his writing style (and gender as well ).

ALLAHU AKBAR
GOD IS GREAT

Peace

You know what???Another-one.......

You dont even attempt to answer any of the questions that are put forward...........you just simply ////////
............... critisize and vagually comment using words like............quote another-one/////

Of course there is. Bible = Lies, lies, lies, and lies again.

no


It doesn't doubt anything.

There is no contradiction in the Qur'an.

What's your point lol


Another-one........these above are your so called Answers..............
As for myself ,i am not a quotefrom Another-one....///Here is my opinion on Helen;

She is a hard-core Christian Orthodox who is being fed anti-islamic garbage by friends and possibly parents as well who get all their Islamic sources from the Media - probably Fox News (no offense).

She likes to create topics on the board which deal with her church, pasting the entire article off a website and adding a comment from the Bible that suits her beliefs (circling what you like, throwing away what you dont like).

She hates the religion of Islam and has a HUGE misconception of it as well. She tried several times to bash it by using the "jihad this" "jihad that" garbage which was refuted by me immediately. Nevertheless, she skips my refutals and goes onto something entirely different. Ignorance and concrete thinking.

She believes in a "Trinity" which does not exist nor is taught in the Bible, and she believes that Jesus (peace and blessings be upon him) is God - which Jesus never claimed to be.

She never read the Qur'an NOR the Bible, and is unaware that her religion forbids freedom of religion - enforces power over others - condemns equality of human beings - degrades women - and strongly enforces slavery.

If she was aware of these facts (which she ignores whenever i post verses supporting it), she might be careful about criticizing someone else's beliefs.

I also have reason to believe that she is a former member of ATS who slightly changed his writing style (and gender as well ).

well.another -one.......you seem to think you know me!!!

I dont ''hate'' muslims!!!
I know a few 'Muslim people' and they sure are not like you....
..........my parents feed me nothing of the sort!!!
(I do my own cooking !!!)

Where is it that i show ''hatred'' of the Islamic'' religion.....i have done nothing of the sort!!!

quote//another-one....She is a hard-core Christian Orthodox who is being fed anti-islamic garbage by friends and possibly parents as well who get all their Islamic sources from the Media - probably Fox News (no offense).

What are you on about???...........I know that the media is not entirely true.......
Like i said before............im not ''anti-Islamic'' ....
YOU HAVE NOT ANSWERED ANY QUESTIONS REGARDING THE QURAN.........Where did it come from???
Where was the Quran found........
Who was the Person that said '''''Muhammed'' is to be a prophet''???
Go on.......Answer the one question!!!



And ESTRAGON , you refer to '''Estragon'' as someone else.......do you know who you are???
Or is it that you have to keep reminding yourself .......




And the correct word is CHILIASMO.......
ESTRAGON....who seems to think know it all....

WHAT DOES THIS MEAN???estragon..........
April 3rd would be the starting point, unless this person is also "helen". I think it's a team effort myself. But unlike these people, Estragon is always prepared to admit that he doesn't know.


(Sorry abstract- alao.......ruined your thread)

This is where the problem lies. Helen like all the other Christians dont believe that Muhammad is a prophet. They believe that Christianity and Jesus was the last person God ever sent. Like Jesus fixed all the world's problems with Christianty, haha. that's a funny one.

Christians will never see Muhammad as a Prophet of God. We can sit here all we want and still deny. It's very hard for Christians to believe God still sent down prophets after Jesus' prophethood. Yes, I said prophethood. I said it because that would be what Jesus would want me to him, a prophet. "Even in his hometown is a prophet without honor" Remember that one Christians? No, I dont think so.

As another_one stresses, Jesus son of Mary was one of the greatest prophet's of God Almighty. He peformed many miracles, cured the sick, and rose the dead. Doing all this he was only a prophet, no more no less.

Throughout the entire OT, God is given certain attributes. God Almighty, God All Powerful, and many other more. Why would God need help from a "son" if he was the Almighty and All Powerful. My God is not a weak God, he is a STRONG God.

illmatic.......Let's say Jesus Christ was a prophet

and Muhammed was a prophet...........

Jesus Christ performed many miracles,raised the dead........ as you stated above.......

What did ''Prophet Muhammed ''do???

Did he not die ..................
Jesus Christ resurected.............

Were not both Prophets (in Islam ) considered to be equal???
Or is it because Jesus Christ was a Greater prophet (In Islam) then the later 'Muhammed'(in Islam )

If Jesus Christ was the Greater Prophet (in Islam ) then what was the point in sending Muhammed ???

I'M just asking a valid question.......im not ''hating'' Islam.....just letting Another-one know of this because he beleives that i ''hate'' muslims..........

Originally posted by helen670

Jesus Christ was taken up''''Body and soul''''........

Helen, Helen, Helen.... The body is only a carrier for the sprit. so you basically saying the "Jesus"( i use quotes because that's not his name but you insist on calling him that so we will go with it) never really died. He ascended into "Heaven" Like I have said before the word "Heaven" in the bible has sometimes been misinterpreted as the actual sky. So you basically saying that "Jesus" was abducted....

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by Estragon
And whether or not Christ will be incarnate (which I - misguidedly, obviously - thought was the topic here) is addressed precisely where, in this posting?

Any time you touch on "Jesus" things get off the topic

[Edited on 10-5-2003 by abstract_alao]

Originally posted by helen670
illmatic.......Let's say Jesus Christ was a prophet

and Muhammed was a prophet...........

Jesus Christ performed many miracles,raised the dead........ as you stated above.......

What did ''Prophet Muhammed ''do???

Did he not die ..................
Jesus Christ resurected.............

Were not both Prophets (in Islam ) considered to be equal???
Or is it because Jesus Christ was a Greater prophet (In Islam) then the later 'Muhammed'(in Islam )

If Jesus Christ was the Greater Prophet (in Islam ) then what was the point in sending Muhammed ???

I'M just asking a valid question.......im not ''hating'' Islam.....just letting Another-one know of this because he beleives that i ''hate'' muslims..........

Helen, performing miracles and healing the sick isnt the most important thing in a prophethood so I dont even know why you consider it. The most important thing is the message and in that Jesus and Muhammad were similar. Muhammad peformed many miracles, in the streets and in the battleground. The Night Journey and his ascenscion to heaven to recieve many revelations. But I dont know miracles is nothing.

Muhammad was NEEDED. That's why God sent him. Let's forget the fact that many Jews migrated from their fertile lands of Israel to the desert hell of Arabia. You know why? Because they were awaiting the arrival of The Prophet.

These are the facts. Arabs of the 5th century had rediscovered the religion of Abraham and they started practicing it. Strictly speaking, Abraham was neither a Jew nor a Christian, can you understand that? So a man by the name of Zayd ibn 'Amr was a pioneer of searching for the true religion of Abraham. He was forced to flee from Mecca because he was heavely persecuted by the arab pagans so he fled to Syria. There in met a Christian Monk who told him a Prophet would soon arise in Mecca and he would preach the religion Zayd was looking for, Abraham's religion! The true religion. So Zayd left to Mecca but unfortunately he was killed in the southern border of Syria, having never met Muhammad. But his son, Sa'id became one of Muhammad's closest companion.

There is even a story that before he fled Mecca, Zayd was praying at the Ka'aba and he told the pagan arabs, "O Quraysh, by Him in whose hand is the soul of Zayd, not one of you follows the religion of Ibrahim but I." Then he turned to the Ka'aba and said, "O God, if I knew how you wished to be worshipped I would so worship you, but I do not know." Soon by God's graces his prayer was indeed answered.

Helen, I hope you get the whole point of that story. The arabs felt left out because the Christians and the Jews had their prophets and their books. Many arabs felt that God had left them out of His divine purpose for salvation. That's why Muhammad was sent. Moses and Abraham were great prophets, but God still sent many more after them did he not?