Qur'an a Code for living a good life

reply to post by jiggerj

You are 100% correct! Which suggests there is either no god or no need of one. If we abuse religion just like we abuse everything else, where is this god to protect his word in religious texts? You'd think he'd at least do that if he were real. A god (a perfect god) would know how to share his word with us humans in a way that couldn't be misconstrued by any human.

what if Allah knew this problem and has answered it in Qur'an?

(3:7) It is He Who has revealed the Book to you. Some of its verses are absolutely clear and lucid, and these are the core of the Book. Others are ambiguous. Those in whose hearts there is perversity, always go about the part which is ambiguous, seeking mischief and seeking to arrive at its meaning arbitrarily, although none knows their true meaning except Allah. On the contrary, those firmly rooted in knowledge say: 'We believe in it; it is all from our Lord alone.' No one derives true admonition from anything except the men of understanding.

it is making it very clear that humans need to accept their limits and get some really needed humility and then deal with people in a manner suggested in OP.
Some wouldnt do it but this verse shows them a mirror and if even then they dont reform they are disbelievers in Qur'an.
I like this crystal clear approach in Qur'an, it shows people a mirror and just penetrates them till their soul, this makes me believe that it must be from my Creator, i was twisting and wrenched psychologically till i submitted.
For you other point of God not interfering, would you like that each time you lighted a smoke it would extinguish as God knows its bad for health and so is not allowing you to smoke? He lets you because, He knows that the body is not that important and its temporary but wants to see if you are responsible enough to take care of it. Its a test so that He later gives Heaven to ones who have proved worthy.
(smoking was just an example, i am not anti-smoking, smoking is also not a sin)
The above part was an explanation, you dont have to believe that beacause it rest on an assumption that God exists. What proved me that was a tangible Qur'an, it has amazing lessons and insights into human behaviour and it disarmed me.
You may like it just for this although it requires to hold off quick judgements and give it a fair chance.
I am telling you this as you seem open to discuss and explore and i enjoyed your posts even when they were anti god as they were sure smart.
Hope we discuss more
EDIT: I misread your question about God protecting texts, and mistook it as God protecting misuse of religion.
Qur'an also answers that.

15:9 We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption).

Qur'an has a mathematical sequence in it that gets disturbed even if a single alphabet is changed. Its guarded by the prime number 19.

Miracle 19 Fact #1. The first verse (1:1), known as “Basmalah,” consists of 19 letters (Basmalah: image with letters marked).
Miracle 19 Fact #2. The Quran consists of 114 suras, which is …………..19 x 6.
Miracle 19 Fact #3. The total number of
verses in the Quran is 6346, or ….19 x 334.
[6234 numbered verses & 112 un- numbered verses (Basmalahs) 6234+112 = 6346] Note that 6+3+4+6 =…….19.
Miracle 19 Fact #4. The Basmalah occurs 114 times, despite its conspicuous absence from Sura 9 (it
occurs twice in Sura 27) & 114= 19x6.
Miracle 19 Fact #5. From the missing Basmalah of Sura 9 to the extra
Basmalah of Sura 27, there are precisely ……………19 suras.

the list is longer, the full list is herewww.19miracle.org/

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
reply to post by logical7

 

Originally posted by logical7
will you agree to follow at least that which you consider good and true in the holy books? Or reject all with an excuse that it also has bad things, that would be a weak, almost lame rationalisation, right?

I will reject all, not because there is good and bad in them all, but because they are words of man... I will lead my own life and not depend on other men to tell me how to behave, whom to revere or how to live my life.

To me, picking one to live by just because I need something to "follow" is a lame rationalization. We know what we need to know to make it through this life.

If there was a God, and don't be so quick to say there is not because that's not what we're answering here, would He not make Himself known through a text that shares with us His feelings and His actions?

And if that were so, and yet we have many competing holy books all claiming to be of the same inspired Source, then do you think there would be a way to determine which one was authentic?

Very straightforward questions I think, and please understand that I have no agenda in asking. I'm just saying if there was and He did give us His word, then don't you think we would have a way to discover that.

reply to post by Witness123

Originally posted by Witness123
If there was a God, and don't be so quick to say there is not because that's not what we're answering here, would He not make Himself known through a text that shares with us His feelings and His actions?

I have no idea. I cannot presume to know the mind of "God" and I'm surprised at the number of Christians (and probably other religions) who do. I was raised in a very religious household and was taught that we can NOT know the mind of God and to presume to was a sin.

And if that were so, and yet we have many competing holy books all claiming to be of the same inspired Source, then do you think there would be a way to determine which one was authentic?

Again, I don't know.

If I were a god, I can imagine how I might do things, but I don't believe that people can know the mind of the deity(ies) they believe in, regardless how they claim to.

I'm just saying if there was and He did give us His word, then don't you think we would have a way to discover that.

Maybe, maybe not. I just don't know. Sorry.

Are you suggesting that there IS a way for you to know which text is the "true and correct" one?

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
reply to post by Witness123

 

Originally posted by Witness123
If there was a God, and don't be so quick to say there is not because that's not what we're answering here, would He not make Himself known through a text that shares with us His feelings and His actions?

I have no idea. I cannot presume to know the mind of "God" and I'm surprised at the number of Christians (and probably other religions) who do. I was raised in a very religious household and was taught that we can NOT know the mind of God and to presume to was a sin.

And if that were so, and yet we have many competing holy books all claiming to be of the same inspired Source, then do you think there would be a way to determine which one was authentic?

Again, I don't know.

If I were a god, I can imagine how I might do things, but I don't believe that people can know the mind of the deity(ies) they believe in, regardless how they claim to.

I'm just saying if there was and He did give us His word, then don't you think we would have a way to discover that.

Maybe, maybe not. I just don't know. Sorry.

Are you suggesting that there IS a way for you to know which text is the "true and correct" one?

Philosophy tried to answer these questions a long time ago. The philosophers showed to some satisfaction that God is one in nature and that He is omnibenevolent, that is to say if there was a God. And so if this God is omnibenevolent and created us for His good pleasure, then it is not at all a leap to say that He would find some way to reveal Himself to us, whether by Scriptures or by some other method.

If this God were to reveal Himself to us through a manual we would call His word, then I suggest that there is a way to validate or invalidate the several documents from initially a philosophical basis, and then beyond that we would use additional testings to validate or invalidate which was authentic.

My answer to your question then is yes. If God indeed does exist, and we have reason to believe from common sense that He has provided somewhere on this planet a copy of His directions, then there is an objective way to determine out of the several claiming to be which one it is.

reply to post by Witness123


To believe that IF there is a God and IF he left a rule book, he would illustrate which is the true Word, is an interesting belief. But I just don't see the purpose of making that statement of belief. I don't hold any belief about it at all.

You may also be interested in this discussion (especially the 2nd page):
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
reply to post by Witness123

 

To believe that IF there is a God and IF he left a rule book, he would illustrate which is the true Word, is an interesting belief. But I just don't see the purpose of making that statement of belief. I don't hold any belief about it at all.

You may also be interested in this discussion (especially the 2nd page):
www.abovetopsecret.com...

He would not illustrate that word. It would be left to us to determine through investigation which one was authentic.

A. If there was a God
|
|
----there isn't (end)
|
|
|---there is
-------|
-------| (then)

B. Then it would be logical to assume He would provide us a transcript or a manuscript of whatever information He saw fit to include. Most obviously, He would include a record of His laws.
-------|
-------|(then)
C. Presumably, it could be discovered using natural theology and philosophy, textual criticism, examining the internal consistency of the document, testing it against historical and archaeological facts, that it would be determined to a high degree of probability which word was the authentic text.

What you will need to answer is the first two questions in order to decide if the "C" follows. I think as a kind-hearted, genuine person that I suspect you are, that you would like to know the answer to this despite how it might contradict what you hold already. I can't give you the answer but I think this is a train of thought you will need to consider at some point in order to know to that high degree of certainty what the truth actually is.

Originally posted by logical7

you promote open minded study in comparitive religion yet pass quick judgement on one religion based on actions of a fringe group?

Quick destruction warrants quick judgment.

But really I'm not judging. Just offering food for thought.

Are you just trying to throw a point to have the last word?

No, I'm just offering a contructive criticism. For the Qur'an to be a better code, it needs to encourage more cross-cultural comparativism.

I dont want a debate, it is almost never productive.

OK.

I'l like you to tell me regarding the question i asked before

Have you reached a simplified spiritual
understanding that can be accepted
by all? What it is?

Comparativism.



"The origins of the discipline of religious studies in nineteenth-century Europe are not primary mystical or even religious. A highly developed secular sense is a sine qua non of the discipline and its social sustainability anywhere on the planet (hence its virtual absense outside the Western academy). I would like, though, to make a restricted and heterodox case that regarding the discipline as a modern mystical tradition could be useful in approaching the constructive tasks being explored in these reflections. In this, I am not suggesting that the discipline must or even should be read in this way.

Rather, I wish only to make the much more restricted, but no less unorthodox, case that some of the discipline's practices and practitioners (that is, those capable of forging a tensive mystical-critical practice out of the discipline's dual Romantic/Enlightenment heritage) can be read in such a way, and that, moreover, such a mystical-critical rereading of the discipline might be useful for the constructive tasks under discussion here, namely, the cross-cultural influence of religious systems toward a safer, more humane, and more religiously satisfying world.

Scholars of religion, it turns out, often have profound religious experiences reading and interpreting the texts they critically study, and these events have consequences for the methods and models they develop, the conclusions they come to, and even for the traditions they study.

Poetically speaking, gnostic thought recognizes that religious expressions function as symbols and, as such, are simultaneously true and false, that they both reveal and conceal. Reductionism and revelation lie down together here in a (post)modern form of what the Sufi tradition understood as the paradox of the veil (hijab), that is, the psychological and linguistic necessity of cultural forms that reveal the divine light (which is in itself beyond all representation) precisely by concealing it behind veiled symbols and signs." -Jeffrey J. Kripal

reply to post by Witness123

Originally posted by Witness123
I think as a kind-hearted, genuine person that I suspect you are,

Thank you.

I think this is a train of thought you will need to consider at some point in order to know to that high degree of certainty what the truth actually is.

Oh, I have spent MANY years considering it. I'm old. And I was raised in a religious environment. I have considered it for longer than I have been atheistic, by far. My final determination is that I do not and cannot know "what the truth actually is".

But this is getting far off topic. Thank you for the very civil discussion.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
reply to post by Witness123

 

Originally posted by Witness123
I think as a kind-hearted, genuine person that I suspect you are,

Thank you.

I think this is a train of thought you will need to consider at some point in order to know to that high degree of certainty what the truth actually is.

Oh, I have spent MANY years considering it. I'm old.

And I was raised in a religious environment. I have considered it for longer than I have been atheistic, by far. My final determination is that I do not and cannot know "what the truth actually is".

But this is getting far off topic. Thank you for the very civil discussion.

Then let me part by advising you that while you may not be able to know, you shouldn't extend that as being normative for everyone else. While you may not have the ability to know, that doesn't mean no one else does, and it's easy for a person in your position to get the impression that that would be true.

____

On the topic of the thread, Islam started out as a violent, revolutionary movement. Mohammed was a murderer, he was a child rapist, and a polygamist.

What is different about the formation of Christianity and the formation of Islam is that the Christian religion started out as a non-violent movement. It was kicked off by raising people from the dead, including Yeshua ha Meshiach, as He raised Lazarus. Yeshua also taught His followers the way of non-violence, peaceful resolution, and self-sacrifice up to and including laying down your own life to save others or to die for your beliefs.

The beginning of Islam started out very differently with its founder initiating a murder campaign across much of the Middle East and North Africa. He taught his followers the way of war, assassinations, and espionage. In his wake, he left no record of raising people from the dead, but he did however send many people to their grave. Today, his followers, imams in particular, make rationalizations why sex with children as young as three is okay,
the virtues of slavery, and make war on Christians in the name of Allah, and conspire against the Jewish people of Israel. They have populated areas of Minnesota and Michigan, France, Britain and Western Europe, have destroyed many of the neighborhoods there, seen an unprecedented surge in crime, and commit honor killings of their daughters and sisters in the name of Allah.

One of the members of this site argued that faith is not necessary in a society, it is a crutch, and an excuse for why society hasn't gotten things done. What I have described to you is precisely the society that rejects the tenets of Christianity. Why in Egypt, Syria, Sudan, Myanmar, China, are Christians being executed or thrown into prison. They operate underground church where states have required they must preach Communism. Why do you think that is? This is the world without faith AfterInfinity describes and I want to offer that faith contributes a lot to a society. What this Islamic religion shows, what Communism shows, is that where men lack a moral compass then they have no compunction about doing any of these things and more. I won't deny men may have found other ways to live happy, fulfilled lives. That's one of our goals as people. But to try to argue that the Christian religion is a force for evil in this world exposes a level of prejudice in you that I think is the very evil the world suffers from.

reply to post by Witness123


I am replying you after reading your opinion about islam.
Have you ever tried to objectively know what islam is?
Or its wrong just by the fact that it is not christianity?
You can have whatever belief you want, but if you judge other beliefs, it better be with proofs and also being open to get your belief being equally and critically examined and judged.

Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by Witness123

 

I am replying you after reading your opinion about islam.
Have you ever tried to objectively know what islam is?
Or its wrong just by the fact that it is not christianity?
You can have whatever belief you want, but if you judge other beliefs, it better be with proofs and also being open to get your belief being equally and critically examined and judged.

Some people would not learn beyond their comfort zone. Things that not make sense like the prophet as ambitious man who wage war and conquer middle east, meanwhile he was so poor, or explanation of when he married aisya and how old she was etc. Same things but not willing to learn more deeper.

But it is ok, i guess this is the time that being a muslim is like holding a burning coal. Keep making a good thread

Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by Witness123

 

I am replying you after reading your opinion about islam.
Have you ever tried to objectively know what islam is?
Or its wrong just by the fact that it is not christianity?
You can have whatever belief you want, but if you judge other beliefs, it better be with proofs and also being open to get your belief being equally and critically examined and judged.

You imply that I'm restricting you from making such an equally critical response. I'm not. Do it if you feel it is necessary but that was not the purpose of the thread. You brought up Islam and if you're suggesting that you only want sterilized sanitized opinions that tend to be in agreement with yours, it seems you're desire is inconsistent with the purpose of an open forum. When you say proofs, nothing I said in my post was untrue. How is that that you find that to be incorrect or do you prefer not to objectively study Islam for yourself?

Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by Witness123

 

I am replying you after reading your opinion about islam.
Have you ever tried to objectively know what islam is?
Or its wrong just by the fact that it is not christianity?
You can have whatever belief you want, but if you judge other beliefs, it better be with proofs and also being open to get your belief being equally and critically examined and judged.

You imply that I'm restricting you from making such an equally critical response. I'm not. Do it if you feel it is necessary but that was not the purpose of the thread. You brought up Islam and if you're suggesting that you only want sterilized sanitized opinions that tend to be in agreement with yours, it seems you're desire is inconsistent with the purpose of an open forum. When you say proofs, nothing I said in my post was untrue. How is that that you find that to be incorrect or do you prefer not to objectively study Islam for yourself?

reply to post by Witness123

On the topic of the thread, Islam started out as a violent, revolutionary movement. Mohammed was a murderer, he was a child rapist, and a polygamist.

Only according to Christian fundamentalists.

What is different about the formation of Christianity and the formation of Islam is that the Christian religion started out as a non-violent movement. It was kicked off by raising people from the dead, including Yeshua ha Meshiach,

Jesus didn't appear out of nowhere and do his thing in Israel. Jesus was part of an Israelite culture that established itself in the middle east via barbaric genocide and war.

[

The beginning of Islam started out very differently with its founder initiating a murder campaign across much of the Middle East

God in the Bible also used violence to over throw pagan forces.... or would you rather call them "murder campaigns"?Mohammad was a warrior prophet like Moses...who also led wars.

But to try to argue that the Christian religion is a force for evil in this world exposes a level of prejudice in you that I think is the very evil the world suffers from.

Yet, you believe vilifying Islam as evil does not point towards a prejudice?

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
Only according to Christian fundamentalists.

What are you going to do? Behead me because I have called your religion violent? Where do you think your brothers got their inspiration to commit jihad? You think that is of a relatively late date, because any account of history shows that your kind has been at way for the last 700 years with anyone they came across.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
Jesus didn't appear out of nowhere and do his thing in Israel. Jesus was part of an Israelite culture that established itself in the middle east via barbaric genocide and war.

God in the Bible also used violence to over throw pagan forces.... or would you rather call them "murder campaigns"?Mohammad was a warrior prophet like Moses...who also led wars.


The most recent genocide I can recall was the one during the Holocaust, that some of your own leaders like the Grand Mufti and also Catholics were aligned with Hitler at the time. Do you remember that or for the sake of concealing your true fascist ideology will you say that is a fundamentalist spin of history?

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
Yet, you believe vilifying Islam as evil does not point towards a prejudice?

Funny coming from an anti-semite, but I'm not prejudiced against Muslims. It seems that you just have a lot of people who do things in the name of your religion that are abominable, like honor killings and firing missiles into Israel and shoving knives up guys like Gaddhafi's asshole which I can't say he was the greatest guy but show a little respect.

Then when your kind are genociding people in the Sudan, do you think there might be a reason the public image of Islam is not as positive as you would like? And obviously your kind brought it on themselves. We aren't saying this because we're biased euro-centric Americans, we're saying it because your culture is a barbaric society that thrives off of violence and murder.

reply to post by Witness123

You imply that I'm restricting you from making such an equally critical response. I'm not. Do it if you feel it is necessary but that was not the purpose of the thread. You brought up Islam and if you're suggesting that you only want sterilized sanitized opinions that tend to be in agreement with yours, it seems you're desire is inconsistent with the purpose of an open forum. When you say proofs, nothing I said in my post was untrue. How is that that you find that to be incorrect or do you prefer not to objectively study Islam for yourself?

nothing you said is a fact(true), its your opinion derived by selective reading of opinions by others whom you already agree with.
Christianity grew slowly for the initial few centuries, it spread rapidly only when an empire accepted it as an official religion. Thats a fact. Its also a fact that christian rulers and later colonisers took christianity with them when they conquered by force and violence and had the full blessing and backing of the church.
Now the facts about Islam, the pagan arabs among whom Prophet Muhammad pbuh came were no novice in wars, vendetta and assasinations.
He and the initial followers suffered for 13 years till he had to leave to Yatrib(Medina) as pagans plotted his assasination.
Even there they were constantly threatened by pagan armies and had to either defend themselves or get annhilated.
When he returned to Makkah with an army of 10,000 it was conquered without a fight and he forgave all his enemies who had tortured him and plotted his assasination.
I am not going to respond to each point in your mini anti islamic rant but i'l just give you a general rule, "when you point a finger at what some imams say/do then also think what some priests do/say."

However on the topic of Qur'an as a code of conduct, you are welcomed to post querries or Qur'anic verses that you feel are promoting wrong conduct and i will reply you to the best of my ability.

reply to post by Witness123

What are you going to do? Behead me because I have called your religion violent?

Like I said, only Christian fundamentalists think everyday muslims have this compulsive urge to behead everybody they cross paths with. You just proved my point.

Where do you think your brothers got their inspiration to commit jihad?

Thats like asking Christians...."Why do you think your brothers end up molesting children?"
and then pointing to these verses...


Yes, it is good to abstain from sexual relations.But because there is so much sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife, and each woman should have her own husband.
-1 Corinthians 7:1-2


An unmarried man can spend his time doing the Lord’s work and thinking how to please him. But a married man has to think about his earthly responsibilities and how to please his wife.
-1 Corinthians 7:32-33
- He is clearly saying being celibate allows a man to spend his time doing the Lords work.

But I wish everyone were single, just as I am. Yet each person has a special gift from God, of one kind or another. So I say to those who aren’t married and to widows—it’s better to stay unmarried, just as I am.
-1 Corinthians 7:7-8

If you have a wife, do not seek to end the marriage. If you do not have a wife, do not seek to get married.
-1 Corinthians 7:27


But if he has decided firmly not to marry and there is no urgency and he can control his passion, he does well not to marry.So the person who marries his fiancée does well, and the person who doesn’t marry does even better.
-1 Corinthians 7:37


and rationalizing that these biblical instructions to abstain from marriage is why the church is full of child molestors.

You think that is of a relatively late date, because any account of history shows that your kind has been at way for the last 700 years with anyone they came across.

My kind would be anybody who has basic decency to NOT judge an entire religion or people on the actions of a few.

The most recent genocide I can recall was the one during the Holocaust, that some of your own leaders like the Grand Mufti and also Catholics were aligned with Hitler at the time.

The grand Mufti is not my leader. Also, Muslims saved Jews during WW2.


Regarding Catholics... they happen to be Christians, not muslims. So why are you bundling your fellow Christians with Muslims?

Funny coming from an anti-semite, but I'm not prejudiced against Muslims.

a) Its hard to be an anti-semite when 90% of Islams prophets are Israelite.
b)You say you are not prejudiced, yet you don't mind judging all muslims based on the actions of a few terrorists.

who do things in the name of your religion that are abominable, like honor killings and firing missiles into Israel and shoving knives up guys like Gaddhafi's asshole which I can't say he was the greatest guy but show a little respect.

Honor killings take place even among hindus and Sikhs.
The Israel situation is completely political...
Gaddhafis a######..... ouch.... but he was killed by an angry mob. They didn't kill him for religious reasons.

None of those represent Islam. Learn to differentiate between political / religious / religiously motivated political events... which even Christians are guilty of.

We aren't saying this because we're biased euro-centric Americans, we're saying it because your culture is a barbaric society that thrives off of violence and murder.

Same can be said about the entire Western civilization.... based off the two World Wars... its subjugation of cultures in South America, Africa, Asia.... slavery... etc. etc.
So stop telling yourself you are all good and holy.



------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also you did not address the part about the violent beginnings of Israelite culture. What about the genocide and baby killing in the Old Testament? It wasn't always all "turn the other cheek", was it?

reply to post by logical7


its sweet you defend them rules.

but since you posted them, you ask for any response, right.

'allah ' is the spiritual Spell, to let a soul cling to the Earth.
only the very mantra 'allah ' is a spell to let the soul cling to earth.
because of the 'al '
which is in the same category of 'yah ' which is ' ya ' = enki.

...Im very sure that the quaran gives useful advices on ' how to live a good life here ' .

But thats not the point - isnt it.
The point is, what happens, áfter one dies.

...and having lived a ' good life here ' will not help upthere.

Bless

reply to post by Lone12


I dint get anything from what you said, what mantra? 'Allah' is some magical incantation?

...and having lived a ' good life here '
will not help up there.

what other alternative are you suggesting that will help 'up there'?

Originally posted by logical7

nothing you said is a fact(true), its your opinion derived by selective reading of opinions by others whom you already agree with.
Christianity grew slowly for the initial few centuries, it spread rapidly only when an empire accepted it as an official religion. Thats a fact. Its also a fact that christian rulers and later colonisers took christianity with them when they conquered by force and violence and had the full blessing and backing of the church.
Now the facts about Islam, the pagan arabs among whom Prophet Muhammad pbuh came were no novice in wars, vendetta and assasinations.
He and the initial followers suffered for 13 years till he had to leave to Yatrib(Medina) as pagans plotted his assasination.
Even there they were constantly threatened by pagan armies and had to either defend themselves or get annhilated.
When he returned to Makkah with an army of 10,000 it was conquered without a fight and he forgave all his enemies who had tortured him and plotted his assasination.
I am not going to respond to each point in your mini anti islamic rant but i'l just give you a general rule, "when you point a finger at what some imams say/do then also think what some priests do/say."

However on the topic of Qur'an as a code of conduct, you are welcomed to post querries or Qur'anic verses that you feel are promoting wrong conduct and i will reply you to the best of my ability.

Muslims in the Middle East rape children: Fact.

Imams in the Middle East offer support for the rapes: Fact.

sheikyermami.com...

They learned this from Muhammad, who fell in love and married Aisha.

Here is a whole list of imam rapists:

freethoughtblogs.com...

Sexual pleasure from babies is okay to Muslims

"A man can have sexual pleasure from a child as young as a baby. However, he should not penetrate. If he penetrates and the child is harmed then he should be responsible for her subsistence all her life. This girl, however would not count as one of his four permanent wives. The man will not be eligible to marry the girl's sister." Ayatollah Khomeini