An above top secret debate between A and B !

a real debate between A and B. A is an idol worshiper and B is a teacher ! :

A: "Would you allow me to say something and ask some questions?"
B:"Yes, you can"

A: "Is it not a myth that there is God? You want people to believe in a thing which does not exist. If there was God, we could have felt his existence through our senses. You may say that we can feel His presence by the help of our inner senses, but our inner senses also depend upon our five outer senses. We cannot conjure up an image of anything in which some of our senses were not involved. We cannot conjure up the picture of a person whom we have not met; recall to our memory his voice if we have not heard him and feel the touch of his hand by our inner senses if we have never taken his hand in our hand."
"You may say that we can perceive the presence of God by our intelligence and not through our inner or outer senses. But our intelligence also needs the assistance of our five outer senses, without which it cannot function. We cannot make any reasoning or come to any conclusion without the help of our senses.
By your imagination you have created a being, which is of your own image. Since you see, talk, hear, work and rest, He also does exactly what you do."
"You do not show Him to anyone. To maintain your hold on the people you say that He cannot be seen. You also say that He was not born from the womb of a woman. He does not procreate and that He would not die. I have heard that there is an idol in India, which is hidden behind a curtain and is not allowed to be seen by the Hindu devotees. The custodians of the idol say that it is out of mercy that their god does not appear before them, because whoever casts his eyes on it, would instantly die."
"Your God is also like the veiled god of the Hindus. It is out of His mercy that He does not appear before us. If he does, we shall surely die. You say that the universe was created by God, who did not talk to anyone,
As a matter of fact the universe came by itself. Does anyone create the grass, which grows in the field? Does it not grow and get green by itself? Does anyone create the ants and the mosquitoes? Do they not come out by themselves?"
"I must tell you, that among all the stories, which circulate among the people, none is more absurd and baseless than the story of God, who cannot be seen. There are many baseless stories, but they, at least, depict real life and present before us the people and personalities, who may themselves be fictitious, but their acts and deeds are like those of real human beings. We can see them. They eat, they drink, they talk, they sleep and they love. When we read these fictitious stories, we enjoy them. We know that they are false, but we see in them the faces of men and women, who are like us. The people mentioned in the stories might not have existed, but our common sense accepts existence of such people in the world. However, when we cannot see, feel or touch your God, our logic and reasoning, which depend upon our senses, do not accept his existence."
"l know that some people, who have been deceived by you, believe in your invisible God, but you cannot deceive me and make me believe in Him. I worship God, who is made of wood and stone. Although my God does not talk, but I can see him with my eyes and touch him with my hands."
"You say that the God whom I have made from my own hands is not worthy of being worshipped, while you ask the people to worship God, you have created by your imagination. You deceive innocent people by saying that your imaginary God has created the universe, but I do not deceive anyone. No one created the universe. There was no need of any god to create it. It came by itself. God cannot create anything. He is himself our creation. I created him by my hand and you by your imagination."
"By introducing your invisible God to the people, you want to acquire wealth and position and have a respectable, comfortable and luxurious life. These are my last words. I do not want to say anything more."

B: "l would like to start with the last part of your speech. Your accusations that I want money, position and a comfortable life would have been justified if I was living like a caliph. You have seen today that I have eaten a few morsels of bread only and nothing else. I invite you to my house to see for yourself what I will have for dinner and how I live."
"if I wanted to acquire wealth and have a good life, as you say, I was not obliged to teach and preach to get rich. I would have earned money and got rich by my knowledge of chemistry. Another way to get rich was to do business. I have more knowledge' about foreign markets than any merchant in this town. I know what goods are produced in different countries and where to sell them for profit. I also know how to bring them here to reduce the cost of transport."
"you have said that I ask the people to worship God to deceive them and to get rich. I must tell you that I have never taken anything from anyone, except some fruits as presents. One of my friends sends to me every year fresh dates from his garden and another some pomegranates from somewhere else. I accept these presents so that they may not get offended."
"I have heard, that your father was a pearl merchant. Perhaps you may have some knowledge about pearls. But I know all about pearls and precious stones. I can also appraise their market value. If I wanted to get rich I would have worked as a jeweller. Can you test and recognise a precious stone? Do you know how many kinds of rubies and emeralds there are in the world?"

A:"I know nothing about them"
B:"Do you know how many kinds of diamonds there are and what colours they have?"
A"I do not know".

B: "I am not a jeweller, but I know all about the pearls and precious stones. I also know where they come from. All jewellers must know about gems, what I know, but few of them know their sources."
B:"Do you know what makes a diamond shine?"

A:"I never was a diamond merchant, nor was my father. How can I know why diamonds shine?"

B:"Diamonds are obtained from the beds of rivers and streams. Rough diamonds are cut by experts. This is the cut of a diamond, which gives it its brilliance. Those who are experts in cutting diamonds are trained from the childhood in the profession of their fathers and forefathers. Cutting a diamond is a very delicate and difficult art. A diamond is cut only by a diamond."
"I have said all this simply to show to you that if I wanted to accumulate wealth, I could have done so by making use of my knowledge about jewels. I have replied to your accusations and now I shall deal with your objections."

"you have said that I have fabricated stories and ask the people to worship God, who cannot be seen. You refuse to acknowledge existence of God, because He cannot be seen. Can you see inside your own body?"

A: "No, I cannot."

B: "If you could have seen what is inside you, you would not have said that you do not believe in God, who cannot be seen."

A: "What is the relationship between seeing within one's own body and the existence of your unseen God?"

B replied: "You have said just now that a thing, which cannot be seen, touched, tasted or heard, does not exist."

A: "Yes, I have said that and I believe it is true."

B asked: "Do you hear the sound of the movement of blood in your body?"

A: "No, I do not. But does blood move in the body?

B said: "Yes, it does. It makes a full circuit of your body. If the circulation of blood stops for a few minutes you will die."

A said: "I cannot believe that blood circulates in the body."

B: "It is your ignorance, which does not let you believe that your blood circulates in your body, and the same ignorance does not let you believe in the existence of God, Who cannot be seen."

Then B asked A whether he has seen the tiny living beings, which God has created in his body.

B: "It is because of these small creatures and their wonderful work that you are kept alive. They are so small that you cannot see them. Since you are a slave of your senses, you do not know about their existence. If you increase your knowledge and decrease your ignorance, you will come to know that these small beings in your body are as large in number as the particles of sand in the desert. These small creatures are born in your body, multiply in your body, work in your body and die in your body. But you never see them, touch them, taste them or hear them in your life time."
"It is true that one who knows himself knows his God. If you had known yourself and had the knowledge of what is going on inside your body, you would not have said that you do not believe in God, without seeing Him."

Pointing his finger to a huge stone B said: " do you see the stone, which is in the foot of that portico? To you it seems lifeless and motionless, because you do not see the brisk motion, which is inside the stone. Again it is lack of knowledge or your ignorance, which would not let you believe that there is motion inside the stone. The time will come when the learned people would see the motion which is in the stone !"

Continued B: "you have said that everything in the universe came by itself and has no Creator. You think that the grass in the field grows and gets green by itself. You must know that the grass cannot grow without seeds and seeds would not germinate without moisture in the soil and there would be no moisture if no rain falls. The rain does not fall by itself. First the water vapours rise and gather above in the atmosphere in the form of clouds. The winds bring the clouds. Then the water vapours condense and fall down as rain drops. The rain must also fall at the right time, otherwise no grass will grow and become green. Take the seeds of ten kinds of herbs and put them in a closed jar, which has sufficient water, but no air. Would they germinate? No, in addition to water, seeds need air also. It is possible to grow grass, herbs and fruits in hot houses, when it is very cold, provided there is sufficient air. Without the presence of air no grass will grow in the fields and get green. If there is no air, all plants and animals, including human beings, would die."

"do you see the air, on which your very existence depends. You only feel it when it moves. Can you refuse to believe in the existence of air? Can you deny that to grow and get green the grass needs many things like seeds, soil, water, air, a suitable climate and above all a strong managing power, which may co-ordinate the action of these different elements. That Managing and Co-ordinating Power is God."

"You say that everything comes by itself because you are not a scientist. No scientist would ever say that. All scientists and all scholars believe in the existence of a creator, albeit, they may call Him by different names. Even those, who do not believe in God, believe in a Creative Force."

"it is not because of one's knowledge, but it is due to his ignorance that he does not believe in God. When a wise man thinks of himself, he finds that his own body needs a controller so that all its organs and systems may function properly. He then realises that this vast universe also needs a controller or supervisor so that it may run smoothly."

"You said just now that both of us create our own gods - you by your hands and I by my imagination. But there is a big difference between your god and my God. Your god did not exist before you made him out of wood or stone, but my God was there before I could think about Him. I do not create my God by my hands or by my brain. What I do is to know Him better and think of His Greatness. When you see a mountain you try to know more about it. It is not creating the mountain by imagination. That mountain was there before you saw it and it would be there when you are gone."

You cannot know much about the mountain because of your limited knowledge. The more your knowledge grows, the more you will learn about it. It is impossible for you to find out when and how that mountain came into being and when it would disappear. You cannot find out what minerals are there inside or underneath the mountain and what is their benefit to mankind."

B continued "Do you know that the stones, out of which you make your idols came into being thousands of years ago and shall exist for thousands of years more. These stones have come here from a distant place. They could travel that long journey because different parts of the earth are always moving, but this movement is so slow that you do not feel it. There is nothing in the universe, which is not in motion. Rest or motionlessness is meaningless. We are not at rest even when we are sleeping. We are in motion because the earth is in motion. Besides, we have a motion inside our own bodies."
"if you had any knowledge about the piece of stone, out of which you carve an idol, you would not have denied the existence of God and said that I have created Him by my imagination. You do not know what a stone is and how it came into being. Today you can handle it as you like and cut it into any shape or form, but there was a time when it was in liquid state. Gradually it cooled down and God solidified it. In the beginning it was quite brittle and would have broken into pieces in your hand like a piece of glass."

Asked A: "Was it in a liquid condition before?"

"Yes, it was", replied B

A burst into a peal of laughter. One of the students of B got angry and was about to say something when he was stopped by his teacher (B).

A said: "I am laughing because you say that the stones are made of water."

B replied: "I did not say that the stones are made of water. What I had said was that in the beginning they were in a liquid state."

A said: "What difference does it make. The liquid and water are the same things."

B replied: "There are many liquids which are not water. Milk and vinegar are liquids, but they are not water, although they have a water content in them. In the beginning the stones were liquid like water and they flowed like water. Gradually they cooled down and became hard so that you could cut them and make them into idols. The same hard stones will turn into liquid, if they are heated."

Said A: "When I go home I will check the truth of your statement. I will put the stone in the fireplace and see if it turns into liquid or not."

Said the B: "You cannot liquefy stone in your fireplace. Can you liquefy a piece of iron at home? A very high temperature is required to turn solid stone into liquid."

"I am too small and too weak to create God with my brain. It is He, who has created my brain, so that I may think of Him and know Him - my Creator. He was there before I came into being and He would be there when I am no more. I do not mean that I would be totally destroyed. Nothing in the universe is totally destroyed. Everything is subject to change. It is only God, Who does not change."

"please tell me sincerely to whom will you turn for help when you are in trouble? Do you hope that the idol you carve out of stone can come to your succour? Can it cure you when you are sick; save you from mishaps and calamities; save you from starvation and help you pay your debts?"

A replied: "I have no such expectations from the stone, but, I think there is something inside the stone, which will help me. Moreover, I cannot help worshipping it."

B enquired: "What is inside the stone? Is it also stone?"

"I do not know what it is. But it cannot help me if it is also stone," replied A

B said: "You do not feel the presence of air when it is not moving. The air is only a creation of God. He is everywhere, but you cannot see Him or feel His presence by your senses. You have admitted just now that although you do not see it, but your instinct or your soul tells you that there is something inside the stone, and is not the stone, which can help you. That something is God. Your instinct also tells you that you cannot live without God and without worshipping Him."

A said: "It is true. I cannot live without worshipping idols."

Said B: "what is inside the stone and is not stone and can help when you are in trouble is, God."

A pondered over the subject for a while and then said: "Is God, who cannot be seen, inside the stone?"

The B replied: "He is everywhere."

A said: "I cannot believe that a thing may be everywhere but remain unseen."

B said: "Do you know that the air is everywhere but cannot be seen?"

B continued: "even the plants obey the laws made by God faithfully and worship Him. Out of 150 species of plants, which are further divided into hundreds of sub-species you will not find even one plant, which has a disorganised and disorderly life."
"just like us the plants also do not see their Creator, but they worship Him by obeying His laws instinctively."
"I know that you will not accept, or perhaps you do not understand, what I say. A man must have sufficient knowledge to understand complicated problems."

"not only animals by their animal instinct and plants by their plant instinct obey God and worship Him, the lifeless and inanimate objects also, with whatever instinct they have, obey God and worship Him. If they did not worship Him, they would not have followed the laws made by Him. As a result, their atoms would have broken apart and they would have been destroyed."

"The light which comes from the sun also worships God by obeying his laws, which are very stringent and exact. It comes into being by the combination of two opposite forces. These forces also obey the laws of God and worship Him, otherwise they cannot produce light."

"if there was no God there would have been no universe and no you and me. The sentence, "There is no God', is meaningless. The existence of God is a must. If attention of God is diverted, even for a moment from the affairs of the universe to something else, it would break up. Everything in the universe obeys His laws, which are permanent and eternal. Because of His absolute wisdom and knowledge, He could make such wonderful laws, which will last for ever. Each and every law, made by Him serves some special and useful purpose."

When the B concluded his discourse, A fell into a deep reverie as if he was greatly inspired.

B asked: "Do you now believe that God, who cannot be seen, does exist and what you worship is the unseen God?"

A replied: "I am not yet convinced. I am in a quandary. I am full of doubts and misgivings about my faith and my convictions."

B remarked: "The doubt about idol worship is the beginning of the worship of God."

/**************************************************************************************************************************/
sorry for this long story but I found that interesting and since this debate occurred between 699- 765 CE I think it is special.
for concentrating on debate and preventing any prejudgment I omitted the names of persons of A and B and ....
I found that story here:
evans-experientialism.freewebspace.com...

Holy...

Could you please summarize your thoughts? That's an awful lot of reading for something that I'm not exactly sure what it is about.

reply to post by kimish


Touche'

Is it just me or is ATS getting a lot more "looney" and/or trollish threads lately?

reply to post by kimish

yes I know but the problem is that it is a real debate that occurred long time ago not my thoughts. I just thought that the questions of "A" would be the questions of ours.
and the odd thing is that the person "B" spoke about some scientific facts that they are really odd for so many centuries ago. more info is in the link I posted.
A is an idol worshiper and B is a teacher !

reply to post by maes2


Ok, Thanks. You may want to add that to the beginning of your OP so people know what they will be reading. You will get more people to read the thread that way.
I'll respond back after I read it later.

reply to post by maes2


Good conversation. This happened on ATS? I like the whole part about the sun producing light due to opposite forces that obey and worship God. Makes you think about the fallacy of duality and how God is only limited to good when God creates both good and evil.

reply to post by DelayedChristmas

I do not know what you mean by evil but in monotheistic religions God is creator of everything. and of course light. even Lucifer.
but if I say that God wanted Lucifer to be bad is contrary to mercifulness and wiseness of God so I prefer to say God knew that Lucifer would become Lucifer but he allowed him to be. and a free will to decide between right and wrong. like all of us.