Excellent Report on Geo-Engineering and Chemtrails [contains a suprise for ATS]

Originally posted by tinhattribunal
oh,did i forget, a suprise for ATS? one of our members is talked about on page 41

Page 40, and they spell my name wrong

Last but not least there are a number of websites that deny the existence of 'chemtrails' in a quite cynical but scientific way. An example of this is contrailscience.com... Its Webmaster, known as 'Unicus', does actually hide his real identity - adding fresh meat for the conspiracy theory grinder that it might be a government agency. However it is significant that this website deals with any of the websites mentioned above, reducing the argumentation of 'chemtrail' protagonists to a piece of rubble.

I made a searchable version, but it turned out at 94MB, here's the link if anyone wants to cut and paste:
contrailscience.com...

There's another ATS member mentioned, Kevin Martin, on Page 61:

On top of this comes a map with spraying schemes in Europe, which has been released by Kevin Martin, a meteorologist working for the Ontario Weather Service in 2008. Later on such maps displaying intended spraying schemes for Europe, Australia and the United States appeared on the Southern California Authority website. Currently this section of the website has been shut down since January 6th 2010 for unknown reasons.

reply to post by Uncinus


ahh, you've shown up and spoiled the fun for everyone.

but as it is your site [among others] that is scrutinized by this report, i would have expected you to be here to present your views.

thank you for the pasteable link for this document thanks uncinus at 94 mb now i am complaining about low bandwidth .
the smaller download seems to be just 'images' of text and is not cut / paste-able.

as i and others are reading and 'digesting' the info, the debating of this may not start [in earnest] for a while.
that being said, i wouldn't be suprised if many members feel that this has put the issues of geo-engineering into a truthful and proper perspective and will be content to sit back and watch 'the sparks fly'

reply to post by tinhattribunal

i wouldn't be suprised if many members feel that this has put the issues of geo-engineering into a truthful and proper perspective and will be content to sit back and watch 'the sparks fly'

Its not Geo-engineering that's an issue needed to be put in truthful and proper perspective, It exists and a number of countries agreed to not use the science as a means of war against each other.

Chemtrails on the other hand first needs a description/definition that all believers can agree on so that they can then prove that they exist.

Not some saying cloud seeding is chemtrailing others saying persistent contrails are chemtrails and others saying pesticide spraying are chemtrails.

Basically all the above are chemtrails because they have chemicals in a trail that's being left behind an aircraft, however they all have been individually named for what they are so to try and call something its not is either very arrogant or delusional.

No, this is not an excellent report. Far from it, as has been discussed here at ATS before. It is people trying to apply their theory to the science of geo-engineering. If you look at the science of GE, you will find that the REAL experts in the field say this about using planes:

Our generic platform is a jet-fighter-sized aircraft carrying a payload of 10 metric tons of finely divided aerosol, or an equivalent precursor mass, to be distributed evenly over a 2500 km flight path during an 4-hour flight (while few aircraft are currently capable of sustained flight at stratospheric heights, platform design issues are neglected at this point). The initial plume cross section is taken to be 1 m2, which is consistent with the dimensions of the platform. Note that, with these specifications, a total aerosol mass injection of 10 Tg of particles per year would call for 1 million flights, and would require several thousand aircraft operating continuously in the foreseeable future.....

Source
The real experts know that "chemtrails" for geo-engineering will not work. Not only are there few planes capable of doing it, there would have to be fleets of them, flying continuously.
Haven't seen that yet. Have you?

It's also not a new report. Was discussed on ATS in 2010:
www.abovetopsecret.com...
www.abovetopsecret.com...

It's a terrible report. One of the primary sources it lists is a bunch of pilots joking about on a forum about secret chemtrail manual, and the report author takes them seriously. See:

www.airwork.nl...

Read the rest of the thread there, obviously just joking around, yet the "Belford Group" treats it as some kind of real conversation, page 270 on the pdf, and discussed on page 60:

However, the Dutch Airport Portal website, supposed to be a platform for professional pilots, contains a lot of postings referring to spraying schemes with product 'X-432' (a
Barium derivate).149 It contains even excerpts from a company's operating manual and suggestions that KLM, the national Dutch carrier, is a partner in the spraying program. Some consider this portal as a hoax, but one can only wonder why so much energy is used to generate such 'rubbish' that has 'no purpose'. Furthermore the nomenclature is similar to standard operating procedures (SOP) and airplane checklists as used in commercial aviation. Refer to appendix 16 for a printout of some of the postings on this website.

It's like they have never heard of the internet.

Originally posted by speculativeoptimist
...So China and Russia have admitted to cloud seeding. Hasn't Saudi Arabia too?...

I'm not sure what you mean by "have admitted cloud seeding".

Cloud seeding has been done in the United States for decades and is usually done with the full knowledge of the public, because it is often done with public money.

Most cloud seeding done these days in the U.S. is paid for by tax dollars or grant money from several counties who pools that money together to pay for the cloud seeding. Often these counties are in western agricultural states who often suffer from droughts. The reason many counties pool their money together to have a cloud seeding company come in is because the effects of cloud seeding (if it does work) can't really be pinpointed to work in one specific location -- it can affect very wide areas (i.e., if rain is prodiuced, it can be produced over a few counties).

By the way, and as others have mentioned, cloud seeding is NOT the creation of cirrus clouds. First of all, cirrus clouds are not usually rain-making clouds. Cloud seeding is done in clouds that ALREADY EXIST. Plus, those clouds are low. Cloud seeding planes are usually small unpressurized aircraft. Those planes can't even fly high enough to seed cirrus clouds (not to mention seeding a cirrus cloud would be useless).

reply to post by tinhattribunal


I'm sure this still won't be enough for the skeptics.

I always thought it had to do with cooling down the planet, after reading how there was some research done about roofing houses with white shingles to reflect the heat back out.

I was on the fence on this issue until my wife and friends saw a huge grid pattern as we entered a restaurant. A large plane was climbing spraying 4 trails. We also saw two other planes spraying trails. It really was an abnormal sight. I've seen grid patterns before, but this was really unbelievable.

reply to post by Soylent Green Is People

I'm not sure what you mean by "have admitted cloud seeding".

Although officially denied by government sources many countries performed tests for ‘cloud seeding’ to either generate precipitation where it was needed or to prevent precipitation where it is unwanted. At this moment only the Russian and Chinese governments admit that they use particular matter in order to manipulate weather patterns.

From the OP's second source link. It sounded like to me the US has not officially acknowledged the use of cloud seeding? I am not well versed on the subject, but that was my initial response.
Thanks for the perspective though, now I know
I would suspect that some countries may be hesitant to disclose the chemicals used in their cloud seeding efforts because of trade secrets, like Haliburton did in defense of their fracking chemical data release. Or, perhaps they are using ingredients that are legal but controversial? This is speculation on my part however.

reply to post by tinhattribunal


There isn't a difference between the JT3D, and the TF33, except that the TF33 has extra fan sections to provide more power. Other than that they are identical. Pratt and Whitney even did the same modification to commercial engines on later model 707s. When they were retired, they took the engines off them, and sold them to the Air Force. There only noticeable difference between a JT3D and a TF33, is some versions of the JT3D have a slightly larger ram air door on the ring cowling.

JT3D:


TF33:


I'm kind of curious why the TF33 on the E-3 is so important, and the TF33 used by the C-137, C-135, B-52, C-18 (when they were flying), and all the other aircraft that used the exact same engine as the E-3 were ok.

We've known that even normal commercial flights effect the weather. Why wouldn't the government research this for a military advantage. One inch closer truth.

Thank you for posting

reply to post by Soylent Green Is People

Cloud seeding has been done in the United States for decades and is usually done with the full knowledge of the public, because it is often done with public money.

Indeed, attempts to control the weather have been common around the world for generations. I recently came across this passage in F. Scott Fitzgerald's classic novel, Tender is the Night:

Suddenly there was a booming from the wine slopes across the lake; cannons were shooting at hail-bearing clouds in order to break them.

Tender is the Night was published in 1934. The portion of the story from which the above is quoted is set in Geneva (that's in Switzerland, American readers!)

reply to post by tinhattribunal


LL
the debunking done on your thread
looks quite desperate

lol
"lets just quickly close this thread cause it's an old report and there are years old threads."
all the mincing around and " it's got nothing to do with chemtrails!!!!!!!!!!!"

is just laughable.


F&S

Believe it or not, South Africa has a long history of weather modification, and if you want to know more about it, read up on Dr Deon Terblanche. Allot of countries works together on these projects. This is a good place to start www.southafrica.info...

Keep in mind though that they seed clouds that would have produced rain in any case and it's impossible to determine how much of an influence their modification did. As the above article states look into the United Arab Emirates' Department of Atmospheric Studies and the World Meteorological Organisation.

Some more food for thought:
"Professor Peter Wilder, of the Technical University of Munich, did not see the rain fall in the desert but he is keeping an open mind about this new idea.
'I am convinced that the ionisation technology has the potential to work,' he says.
Dr Terblanche is not. 'There is no scientific basis to this technology,' he argues.
So far, then, no one knows whether rain-seeding really does do what its supporters claim. Measuring the success of weather modification projects is like peering through a thick fog - and it always has been.

Read more: www.dailymail.co.uk...

Dr Terblance himself said it is rubbish...

I don't know what to think about this www.mymultiplesclerosis.co.uk... but it is interesting. If you think there is truth to weather modification then look into the Lynemouth Disaster. Seems like there is some conspiracy around Chernobyl and cloud seeding also.

So far, so good.

When I finish all the replies, I'll post a response, but very good so far.

Originally posted by cousen
If you think there is truth to weather modification then look into the Lynemouth Disaster.

The Lynmouth disaster had nothing to do with cloud seeding experiments, the only ones around the time having taken place on the other side of the country

www.weatheronline.co.uk...

www.exmoor-nationalpark.gov.uk...

Not that cloud seeding has anything to do with contrails anyway!

Originally posted by WeRpeons
reply to post by tinhattribunal

 

I was on the fence on this issue until my wife and friends saw a huge grid pattern as we entered a restaurant. A large plane was climbing spraying 4 trails. We also saw two other planes spraying trails. It really was an abnormal sight. I've seen grid patterns before, but this was really unbelievable.

Not abnormal at all. Just use some logical thinking. I'll go with the middle claim first, "spraying 4 trails." It just means the plane had four engines.
The "two other planes" were making contrails because the conditions were right for contrails to form.
They are not "spraying" anything, anymore than your car "sprays" exhaust. It's Newton's third law of motion in action. For the plane to move forward, it has to force something back. The waste product of that thrust, like any engine, is exhaust, which is chemically mostly water. Always has been, always will be. You burn anything on the planet and you have oxygen combining with hydrogen as a waste product. Two molecules of hydrogen combined with one of oxygen is water in some form. When you see a contrail, that water is condensed to it's solid form (contrails and cirrus clouds are ice, not liquid water drops), and is visible. When you don't, the water remains as a gas. This is 7th grade science. Conspiracy cannot change the laws of science, despite all efforts and insistence otherwise.
Now the big one...a "grid" pattern. There are so many reasons why this is just silly. First, the planes were miles from you and miles apart. From every position of the compass and all distances that these same contrails were visible, they would not look the same.
Second, planes traveling in the same direction leaving contrails will leave contrails in lines. Especially when there is a time between the planes for the contrail to drift or when the planes are miles apart, which they usually are. Add in planes traveling in another direction, and you have "grids".
Try it yourself on paper: Draw a route, label it N-S. The next plane is miles away from the first heading in the same general direction, so draw another N-S route. Now draw a two routes that are going E-W. See? There is your grid. All it means is that two (or more) planes were heading one way, and two (or more) were flying in another direction. This is not magical, nor a trick, it's common sense.

Originally posted by AndyMayhew

Originally posted by cousen
If you think there is truth to weather modification then look into the Lynemouth Disaster.

The Lynmouth disaster had nothing to do with cloud seeding experiments, the only ones around the time having taken place on the other side of the country

www.weatheronline.co.uk...

www.exmoor-nationalpark.gov.uk...

Not that cloud seeding has anything to do with contrails anyway!

Thanks for those links.

Weather modification, so I thought it's relevant. Sorry if not and off topic

reply to post by DerepentLEstranger

"lets just quickly close this thread cause it's an old report and there are years old threads."

Well did you even read the so called report?

Had you have actually followed the link to the old thread you would have seen this was discusses and shown to be baseless, but of course you did look and read it which is why you posted your reply, correct?

reply to post by WeRpeons

I was on the fence on this issue until my wife and friends saw a huge grid pattern as we entered a restaurant. A large plane was climbing spraying 4 trails. We also saw two other planes spraying trails. It really was an abnormal sight. I've seen grid patterns before, but this was really unbelievable.

Just wondering what makes this grid pattern any different than any other you have seen?

How come this wasn't just contrails from plane exhaust, as is all other white lines from plane exhausts that may form grid patterns?

Just wondering what makes this grid pattern any different than any other you have seen? How come this wasn't just contrails from plane exhaust, as is all other white lines from plane exhausts that may form grid patterns?

reply to post by tsurfer2000h


I'm 54 years old. I have lived within 5 miles of an international airport. In all my years growing up and into my adult years, I have never seen contrails like I have seen in the past few years. At first, I was skeptical about "chemtrails" since, I never saw the grid patterns and extremely wide stream chemtrail believers were talking about. I understand how contrails can dissipate and expand after awhile, but these trails were immediate.
The weather on this day was like any other warm sunny day.

The large plane that we observed that day was leaving 4 streams that were immediately expanding. The angle and steep climb of the plane was also extreme. I have seen many planes taking off from our airport, and I have never seen a plane climbing that steep. The angle of this plane was at least 70 degrees. I can't imagine a commercial airplane climbing at that angle without causing passengers to panic. Some people may say it may of appeared as a steep climb from my perspective, but this was directly over our heads! When I saw this, I immediately asked the couple that were with us if they ever seen contrails like that in their life, and they responded with a stunned look on their face and said no. Half of our conversation during our lunch was about the contrails and planes we just saw in the parking lot.

I have witnessed these expanding grid lines 3 times before witnessing this one. I started thinking maybe there was something to these "chemtrails," but I would always assure myself it wasn't the case. This one observation changed my views instantly. Nobody can tell me that was caused by normal plane traffic overhead. It reminded me when I would go to the air show to watch the Blue Angels perform. Their acrobatics were centralized over our airport and the contrails were everywhere.