Illusion of Free Will

Let me take a little bit of time out of your day to try something with you. Raise your right hand, I'll give you a minute or two. Good, those of you who have their hand raised, wanted their hands to be raised. Those of you whose hands are not raised, did not want their hands to be raised. Simple, no?

See: If you truly did not want your hand raised, then you wouldn't have raised them when I asked you. Now, those of you with your hands up, put them down. Now for this part: Those of you who still have their hand up did not truly want their hands up -- if you did, you would have had them up without me telling you to put them up in the first place.

This is how human beings work. If you want something, then the only thing stopping you from getting it is you. If you truly want to blow up let's say, a home (occupied) , then you would look for b-mb plans, set on where you want, and go through with your plan, and you would not get caught. People like this, though, are rare. Why? Because society has made us that way. See, before you make a decision, you (either subconsciously or consciously) evaluate your decision with the rules of your society. If your society finds it wrong to blow up that home, then most people would evaluate this decision with their society's rules first, but there exist people who are either unable to or can voluntarily choose not to do this. Those people are those with true free will. These are the people who will have never even made the effort to look for plans.

It's called morality. If you are a moral person, then you will undoubtedly not have the 'luxury' of free will. Immorality does not mean that a person is necessarily evil, just that this person does not act the way society would like him/her to. See, we think we have free will, when really we are only locked in the cage of decisions that society has put us into. Take a good look at every man and woman on the streets, because the chances are that he or she would not be the same if we were not in a civilization such as this. But, as bad as it sounds, it is for the better, because at heart, we are all animals, and the only way for us to be as civilized as we are now, is for a society to exist.

Your strings are plucked just like the rest of us. Free will is an illusion, but not for the reasons you think.

reply to post by mr10k


I disagree with the OP, for the simple reason that even in spite of those morals, we can either obey or ignore those morals. And that is true free will - the ability to obey or disobey. The ability to make a decision based on what YOU want, whether it be for you or for someone else.

But not all choices are governed by morality, the hand thing for example. The fact that you asked people to put their hand up is irrelevant, if they want to listen to you and play along is up to them, so if they raised their hand they did truly want their hand up regardless of whether they put it down when you ask.

Morality is not an unbreakable set of boundaries, you can ignore your morals, I've done it and I'm sure everyone has at some point.

Originally posted by PrplHrt
Your strings are plucked just like the rest of us. Free will is an illusion, but not for the reasons you think.

I hate it when people try to be all knowledgeable and mysterious. If you've got something to say, say it.

reply to post by SpearMint

I believe I was pretty clear. If you don't understand then it isn't for you to do so.

Edit: You know what? No, you have to earn it. Just like I did.

universal freedom is impossible.

If we were truly free, we would be free to enslave one another, and therefore 'not free'.

Freedom is a paradox.

Originally posted by PrplHrt
reply to post by SpearMint

 

I believe I was pretty clear. If you don't understand then it isn't for you to do so.

I don't understand it either, and you were farrrrr from 'clear'

Your strings are plucked just like the rest of us. Free will is an illusion, but not for the reasons you think.

So, what are the true reasons then, since I seem to be completely off?

reply to post by AfterInfinity

reply to post by SpearMint


I agree, but the point I'm trying to make is that we've been conditioned to relinquish our total free will, and now most all the things we do we pass through society's morality first. True, we can choose whether or not be moral or not, but we never get true free will, because we always weigh our actions on something else, be it 'God', society, or the long-term repercussions of our actions.

Ignorance is bliss.

Originally posted by PrplHrt
reply to post by SpearMint

 

I believe I was pretty clear. If you don't understand then it isn't for you to do so.

Edit: You know what? No, you have to earn it. Just like I did.

edit on 12/17/2012 by PrplHrt because: (no reason given)

No, you didn't say anything of value at all. I don't don't want to "earn" your made up and/or delusional reasons as to why we don't have free will. Nobody knows either way, including you. Stop trying to act like you're enlightened in some way.

reply to post by SpearMint

I do know. I learned the hard way

You haven't earned an answer and you just blew any opportunity you might have had to learn with your crappy attitude.

You'll have your epiphany the hard way just like I did.

Originally posted by PrplHrt
reply to post by SpearMint

 

I do know. I learned the hard way

You haven't earned an answer and you just blew any opportunity you might have had to learn with your crappy attitude.

You'll have your epiphany the hard way just like I did.

Ah, an epiphany, so your theory was concocted by your own mind and is therefore speculation. You don't know more than anyone else, the only difference is that you think you do.

reply to post by PrplHrt


Wow. So by not saying anything, you said something? And now you have the gall to try and rub that nothingness into our faces? What kind of epiphany was this? Did you come to the realization that your posts contribute absolutely nothing to the thread?

reply to post by mr10k


True, we could never be civilised and have total free will, but I think that's for the best, and that is largely governed by morals, or rather the moral consensus. I don't think I'd want to live in a place were everyone had total free will.

The least free of all are people of religions that tell you not to do stuff, otherwise they will go to hell. That's what religion is now I think about it, all it does is restrict free will in a variety of ways.

reply to post by mr10k


I just don't know if this addresses what you want from your OP, but I would say that morals are only for a community of beings. If you are dropped upon Mars, alone, no life besides your own, then morality does not exist there. It is only through your participation with other beings that morality exists. Morality, to me, is the principal guide in getting along with other beings. Society, in my view, cannot be consistent, nor be able to function without morality. We are responsible for our actions in context. We are free to choose. A determinist is merely an intellectual thief, robbing us of our choices and responsibilities in a society of free beings.

I would call your illusion that you suffer is of Mind. It does not take much complication or understanding to realize whether we have free will or not. Even the flies around the garbage have free will, they choose to go there don't they? The only thing thats restricting your free will is your self, as in the Body. Pleasing and satisfying your bodily and egotistical intentions is not of free will.

It all takes just understanding the difference between your bodily needs and Self Needs. To grasp your intention of free will.

I'm a big time free will kind of guy . I was starting to mentally compose a reply that I was certain would brilliantly refute your nonsensical theory when the trouble making part of my brain asked ; if you have so much free will how come your big mouth keeps getting you in so much trouble even when you know better ?

My head is starting to hurt , you've made me think to hard .

flys are Compelled! to go towards garbage. they are created for that. did you ever see a fly head off in the opposite direction exclaiming "phew! what a stink".

the basis of morality is the undivided oneness that simply exists. if you consider all possibilities, the inevitable conclusion is that there is only 1 existence. there is no duality. nowhere do you see any matter fighting against other matter that operates under different laws. manifestation appears multiple but all follow the same universal law. separation is an illusion. in other threads about the pineal gland some mention is made of the unity of creation where the ego-self is seen as illusory. if duality existed then injuring another would not hold repugnance, at least not for the matured spirit.
the personality comes from the word persona, latin for mask, but mask over what? if duality is non-existent then there is no "2nd" to decide what to do. if you love chocolate, can you without difficulty change and genuinely hate chocolate? if you are a naturally contented person, can you really change to (and mean it) an impatient person? if you are heterosexual, can you really become homosexual with an act of will, and with absolute ease?

freewill is an illusion and oxymoron.

all creation maifests from the one undivided causeless reality.(ucr) there is no "reason" for it. it just is. all cycles of peace, war, goodness and atrocities emanate from this UCR.

so what about the identification with the body/mind, is that a choice? ---------

i like the poem translated from the sanscrit by edwin arnold i think it was.

"light of asia"

you suffer from yourselves, none else compels;

to whirl upon the wheel of life

and hug and kiss its spokes of agony.

is it as simple as ----"letting go"

Originally posted by mr10k

Originally posted by PrplHrt
reply to post by SpearMint

 

I believe I was pretty clear. If you don't understand then it isn't for you to do so.

I don't understand it either, and you were farrrrr from 'clear'

Your strings are plucked just like the rest of us. Free will is an illusion, but not for the reasons you think.

So, what are the true reasons then, since I seem to be completely off?

reply to post by AfterInfinity

 

reply to post by SpearMint

 

I agree, but the point I'm trying to make is that we've been conditioned to relinquish our total free will, and now most all the things we do we pass through society's morality first. True, we can choose whether or not be moral or not, but we never get true free will, because we always weigh our actions on something else, be it 'God', society, or the long-term repercussions of our actions.

I thought it was pretty clear myself -- it's not for any reason ANY of us think. It's incomprehensible...

I believe the maker of this statement didn't understand the totality of the statement he made. Pitty.

Your strings are plucked just like the rest of us. Free will is an illusion, but not for the reasons you think.

Free will is an illusion, but the motive is unknown to all, not just "you."

Yep. I can firmly say I agree with that.

Free will doesn't exist, we have restricted will, since we don't choose our opportunities. Free will means we can make our own decisions about things, but we can't control those things.

For instance, you could choose to raise your hand or not, however -- you couldn't choose whether or not you'd be put into the position where you would be asked to raise your hand.

It's very limited will by the very nature of independence.

now that's what I needed mr12k, thx a lot.

You have absolute freedom. You chose these limitations. You existed before your body was born and you will live when it is gone. You are me. You are everything. You are all there is. You created the universe and it is becoming like you.

I chose the limitations of relative perception and individuality because that is the best way for me to experience my creation. The individuals don't see what I, the universal consciousness, sees because then, their perceptions wouldn't be relative and it would be very boring for me.