The Moral Basis of Israel's Gaza Operation

Alan Dershowitz in one of his books addresses the propaganda Palestinians are regularly subjected to. Numerous threads at this site document this material, yet, to no avail. In any case, propaganda of the nature Hamas conditions it's citizens with has molded a mentality in the majority of the people within Gaza (the fact that their exists parties amidst this totalitarian regime that can think differently is itself a wonder) that absolutely despises Jews. Not Israelis, but Jews, in the religious sense of the term: the only sense a passionately religious population like Gaza would understand.

The mentality of the Islamist population of Gaza and the terrorism of Hamas terrorists forms a type of continuum. The citizen of Gaza 'believes' in Hamas' righteousness. They have this hammered in everyday at school, on TV, in their newspapers. It's virtually impossible to escape their hold. Enemies of the regime are quickly found with a bullet in the back of their heads.

This is largely why Hamas is so able to make use of the population for cover; a) Islamism, or political Islam, bases itself on the writings of Rashid Rida, Hassan Al Banna and Sayyed Qutb. Hassan Al Banna used to emphasize the importance of learning “the art of death”. The special advantage Muslims had over non-Muslims (particularly Jews) was the Muslims love of death (so the interpretation given of it by the salafists). This can be thought, in terms of metaphysics, as a love for the most abstract concept which involves and includes every basic quality of existence. Allah is this, the Absolute, Pure Will etc. The majority of the Muslims of Gaza are systematically indoctrinated into this ‘mainstream’ theology. This, combined with the political propaganda against Jews and Israeli’s, explains why most Palestinians are eager to 'serve Allah', by helping Hamas succeed in their fight against the Jews.

So in this fight, Israel is taking every precaution imaginable, such as having ships at shore determining exactly where rocket attacks are coming from, dropping leaflets which say:




Equipping units with cameraman to document IDF battles, this for the purpose of refuting claims that IDF soldiers kill civilians deliberately, as opposed to being shot at from areas where civilians are present.

Israel thus is trying quite hard to avoid killing non-combatants; but that doesn't mean Israel should just ignore and forget the terror attacks, the sirens indicating an incoming missile, the disruptions in daily living, and the anxieties created by Hamas terrorism. It is INHUMANE to ask for someone to ignore that.

There are two sides. Hamas is vicious disturbed. What they do can only be described as evil, abnormal, unjust; but their religious theology allows them to always see things in terms of ‘the end justifies the means’. To them, Palestinians are a means towards Islamisms ends. Israel, albeit, not perfect, is the protagonist, while the people of Israel and Gaza are the victims.

Firing 500 random rockets (true number??) compared to one direct hit does not make since at all. Even if they fired 200 rockets and acting like its OK compared to one direct hit still doesn't make much sense. Either way, they both need to find some kind of compromise which I am sure will not happen.

Let the games begin.

Sometimes Israel angers me. Sometimes the Middle East angers me. Sometimes I think I understand. Information like this makes me realize I know nothing about what goes on there or why.

reply to post by sirjunlegun


It's all about premises.

What do you know of the conflict? Of Hamas - it's ideology and government; or Israel?

Many people here jump in support of Hamas despite the fact that Hamas, or Islamism, flat out denounces rights which we clearly take for granted such as freedom of speech, equality between the sexes, etc.

It bamboozles the mind, that an intelligent person can encounter such information, yet do nothing about it. It's a casebook for cognitive dissonance and an impeachment against their own principles and beliefs.

So supporting Hamas is illogical. What it represents, how it functions, and how it discriminates against non-Muslims (being a regime which institutionalizes shari'a law). And that's not even to mention what it spreads about Jews and Israel in it's media and it's schools.

Any solution that does not see the elimination of Hamas is a despicable ruse designed to subdue us into ignorance of the overall Islamist crisis facing the west. We may pretend for today, of course, but it's not going away. It'll be an issue that will have to be addressed if we ever hope to maintain our mode of living.

But on what basis does Israel have to occupy gaza or the west bank or any other part of Palestine? Sounds like they want to wipe Palestine off the map.

reply to post by woodwardjnr


Follow the course of events:

First, however, I will reiterate that Hamas is a totalitarian (all controlling) Islamist regime. So first of all, it is idiotic and beyond reason to lend support to an ideology that contradicts everything you would support.

Hamas has been shooting rockets at Israel in order to induce a response

Since shooting rockets is terrorism i.e. it terrorizes the citizens of Israel, Israel must respond

This has been going on now for over 12 years. In 12 years, over 12,000 rockets have been shot at Israel. In the last year alone, close to 1000 have been shot at Israel.

Since Hamas makes living so difficult for Israelis, the Israelis have every moral and justifiable right to attempt to do something significant about Hamas

As said, Israel is trying desperately to avoid killing civilians. But one of the many evils of Hamas is their locating important military, government or bomb making facilities in residential neighborhoods.

The fact that 16 kids have been killed is a misfortune that Israel wants to avoid; but Hamas engineers it by locating these dangerous facilities in such precarious areas.

OP I ask you this, If the rockets had stopped, would the expansion building settlements on illegal land also stop.?


I know the answer and it is the reason there is a Hamas trying to defend their peoples from it.

That's the bottom line.

reply to post by dontreally


is this guy serious?

reply to post by ken10


The west bank and Gaza are two different situations. Fatah controls the west bank and the settlements are happening there. Hamas controls Gaza. There are no settlements in Gaza. Hamas and Fatah are bitter ideological enemies.

But that's both besides the point. Hamas doesn't fight Israel because of the settlements, but because, as it's founding charter states:

The charter states that "our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious" and calls for the eventual creation of an Islamic state in Palestine, in place of Israel and the Palestinian Territories,[1] and the obliteration or dissolution of Israel

link

reply to post by ken10


So I give you facts, with sources, and then you accuse me of making it up

It's posts like these which deserve deletion. They sully this site with a type of anti-intellectualism that should turn any intelligent and educated poster off from engaging in conversation.

Worse of all, I know you realize that you're being facetious in order to dishevel me and troll the thread with nonsense.

Someone who is sincere should be logically able to take in that information that I gave, and modify their earlier position.

Originally posted by dontreally
reply to post by ken10

 

So I give you facts, with sources, and then you accuse me of making it up

It's posts like these which deserve deletion. They sully this site with a type of anti-intellectualism that should turn any intelligent and educated poster off from engaging in conversation.

Worse of all, I know you realize that you're being facetious in order to dishevel me and troll the thread with nonsense.

Someone who is sincere should be logically able to take in that information that I gave, and modify their earlier position.

edit on 18-11-2012 by dontreally because: (no reason given)

Hamas only came to power in 2006, before then it was Fatah for both Gaza and Weat Bank.

The problem has ALWAYS been Israeli stealing Palestinian lands, everything else is resistance to that fact.

There is no moral basis for Israel's Gaza operation, this rabbi seems to agree:



Do you agree or disagree with what the rabbi says?

I find his words to be very moving.

reply to post by dontreally

Since Hamas makes living so difficult for Israelis, the Israelis have every moral and justifiable right to attempt to do something significant about Hamas.

If the conflict were isolated to the Israeli Governments' attempt to only defend the country against Hamas, this statement might be true to some extend.
For someone who is repeatedly pointing out the importance to include all relevant facts, you have a tendency to greatly oversimplify the situation.

I posted this in a reply to a post of yours in another thread.

The question of the moral justification is one that a growing number of people, who were/are actively involved, are asking themselves. Here's what one of them has to say.



paraphrased: "When i entered the Army, i asked myself how could i conduct a moral occupation, it took me a while before i realised, this was a contradiction in terms."

I would urge you to watch the whole thing.

Soldiers who serve in the Territories witness and participate in military actions which change them immensely. Cases of abuse towards Palestinians, looting, and destruction of property have been the norm for years, but are still explained as extreme and unique cases.
Our testimonies portray a different, and much grimmer picture in which deterioration of moral standards finds expression in the character of orders and the rules of engagement, and are justified in the name of Israel's security. While this reality is known to Israeli soldiers and commanders, Israeli society continues to turn a blind eye, and to deny that what is done in its name.

Breaking the Silence

According to your logic, the Palestinian people in Gaza and the Westbank are also only exercising their moral and justifiable right to defend themselves and the ends justify the means. But this way the violence will continue indefinitely.
Fortunately, more and more people are trying to break the cycle from within.

reply to post by talklikeapirat

According to your logic, the Palestinian people in Gaza and the Westbank are also only exercising their moral and justifiable right to defend themselves and the ends justify the means. But this way the violence will continue indefinitely. Fortunately, more and more people trying to break the cycle from within.

Who are these "more and more people" trying to break the cycle from within??

How many "peace now" Palestinian organizations exist? Are there are any Jewish fundamentalist religious organizations vying for power in Israel?

You ignore the dynamics of the characters involved in this conflict. Hamas is illegitimate, period, because it not only denies Israels right to existence, but longer term, once Israel is out of the way, Hamas will be fighting with Fatah for power.

Do you get how Israel is only turned into a necessary enemy by the Arabs?

This proposition is at odds with with the widely held view that Arab hatred of Jews was or is nourished primarily by concrete experiences with Zionism or Israeli politics. Instead, it assumes, that Islamists will be sure to find their obsession confirmed by whatever Zionism or the Israeli government does or does not do.
Thus, actual Zionist actions have never been really relevant to the Muslim Brothers’ and the Mufti’s Jew hatred. To this day, Islamists remain indifferent to the real Israel. They do not want to influence it’s government and it’s people by political action. Only in fantasized form, as the embodiment of pure evil, does the Jewish state serve the function ascribed to it. – Mattias Kuntzel, Jihad and Jew Hatred: Islamism, Nazism, and roots of 9/11. pg. 100, Telos Press

It never ceases to amaze me that people can talk about the "Palestinian people", without people discussing why peace is so hard to come by. Why Palestinians, particularly those living in Gaza, are so vociferous in their opposition? People post videos of what's shown on Palestinian television - which is monitored by the Israeli based PalestinianMediaWatch, but no one cares. Its unconscionable. I would be the first person to ask for a lifting of the Gaza blockade if I knew these people could be trust; if I felt Jews wouldn't be threatened once those walls are removed and free passage in and out of Israel/Gaza/Westbank wouldn't result in more terror attacks.

The strength of Palestinian propaganda thrives by removing the context in which these scuffles occur.

reply to post by Corruption Exposed


A few thoughts: the Judaism he practices is an eastern european chassidic innovation. Although he imagines what the Zionists believe somehow "isn't Judaism", yet, before the debasement and demoralization of the Jew - the type of Judaism mr. feldman has grown accustomed to (the type of Judaism that encourages Jews go quivering into concentration camps, and then extermination camps, hoping for a miracle from God, instead of doing something themselves) Judaism, as early research into Judaism has shown, was quite different. It was not nearly as pusillanimous as the Judaism mr. Feldman practices..

But alas, a orthodox Jew expressing support for Palestine is too perfect an image for the event's sponsors or the rabbi to give up!

And no, his words did not move me in the least. I especially loved it "was this invented by a religious scholar, no, an outspoken heretic herzl...*cheers*.. And yet, to mr. feldman, all of you are heretics, less-than-Jews in a spiritual sense. I should know, I'm quite acquainted with the beliefs of the ultra-orthodox Jews. I doubt Mr. Herzl would appreciate Abraham Heschel. In any case, there are plenty of religious Zionist scholars, the foremost being the chief rabbi of Jerusalem, Abraham Isaac Kook.

I would be willing to be Mr. Feldman knows nothing about Hamas, and spends most of his time debating the intricacies of Zionism from the 'religious' perspective. Which, could be called a practice in wasting ones time.