Jesus was Yeishu ha-Notzri

I came across an interesting article and am currently on the brink of finishing it, i decided to stop and post it on ATS for some further insight.

www.vexen.co.uk...

If Jesus was not an historical person, where did the
whole New Testament story come from in the first place? The
Hebrew name for Christians has always been _Notzrim_. This name
is derived from the Hebrew word _neitzer_ which means a shoot or
sprout - an obvious Messianic symbol. There were already people
called Notzrim at the time of Rabbi Yehoshua ben Perachyah (c.
100 B.C.E.). Although modern Christians claim that Christianity
only started in the first century C.E., it is clear that the
first century Christians in Israel considered themselves to be a
continuation of the Notzri movement which had been in existence
for about 150 years. One of the the most notorious Notzrim was
Yeishu ben Pandeira, also known as Yeishu ha-Notzri. Talmudic
scholars have always maintained that the story of Jesus began
with Yeishu. The Hebrew name for Jesus has always been Yeishu
and the Hebrew for "Jesus the Nazarene" has always been "Yeishu
ha-Notzri." (The name Yeishu is a shortened form of the name
Yeishua, not Yehoshua.) It is important to note that Yeishu
ha-Notzri is not an historical Jesus since modern Christianity
denies any connection between Jesus and Yeishu and moreover,
parts of the Jesus myth are based on other historical people
besides Yeishu.

We know very little about Yeishu ha-Notzri. All modern
works that mention him are based on information taken from the
Tosefta and the Baraitas - writings made at the same time as the
Mishna but not contained in it. Because the historical
information concerning Yeishu is so damaging to Christianity,
most Christian authors (and even some Jewish ones) have tried to
discredit this information and have invented many ingenious
arguments to explain it away. Many of their arguments are based
on misunderstandings and misquotations of the Baraitas and in
order to get an accurate picture of Yeishu one should ignore
Christian authors and examine the Baraitas directly.

Our resident scholar, Amadeus, has pointed out many times that a historical man named, R.Yeshua Bar Yosef of the Gallilean, existed and was a Davidic Jew who, himself and his family, escalated Israelite history, or so i have been able to assume from his posts. Amadeus has stated that this man was killed around 37 A.D; this Yeishu ha-Notzri lived a good 137 years before that, so, were there two different Messiahs ?

I'm a bit confused, i hope Amadeus, or someone else more versed, can add some positive insight.

Deep

www.hiddenmysteries.com...
Check out the book Mushrooms and Mankind, if you can get past the negative stereotype of drug use, this guy actually ahs compiled some ver compelling and profound evidence that would be of interest to you I think.

Jesus in the Talmud:

Horrible Blasphemies Against Jesus Christ

While it is the standard disinformation practice of apologists for the Talmud to deny that it contains any scurrilous references to Jesus Christ, certain Orthodox Jewish organizations are more forthcoming and admit that the Talmud not only mentions Jesus but disparages him (as a sorcerer and a demented sex freak). These orthodox Jewish organizations make this admission perhaps out of the belief that Jewish supremacy is so well-established in the modern world that they need not concern themselves with adverse reactions.

For example, on the website of the Orthodox Jewish Hasidic Lubavitch group--one of the largest in the world--we find the following statement, complete with Talmudic citations:

"The Talmud (Babylonian edition) records other sins of 'Jesus the Nazarene':

1) He and his disciples practiced sorcery and black magic, led Jews astray into idolatry, and were sponsored by foreign, gentile powers for the purpose of subverting Jewish worship (Sanhedrin 43a).

2) He was sexually immoral, worshipped statues of stone (a brick is mentioned), was cut off from the Jewish people for his wickedness, and refused to repent (Sanhedrin 107b; Sotah 47a).

3) He learned witchcraft in Egypt and, to perform miracles, used procedures that involved cutting his flesh, which is also explicitly banned in the Bible (Shabbos 104b).

End quote from www.noahide.com... (Lubavitch website) June 20, 2000.

[Note: we have printed and preserved in our files a hard copy of this statement from the Lubavitch"Noah's Covenant Website," as it appeared on their website at www.noahide.com... on June 20, 2000, in the event that denials are later issued and the statement itself suppressed].

Let us examine further some of these anti-Christ Talmud passages:

Gittin 57a. Says Jesus is in hell, being boiled in "hot excrement."

Sanhedrin 43a. Says Jesus ("Yeshu" and in Soncino footnote #6, Yeshu "the Nazarene") was executed because he practiced sorcery: "It is taught that on the eve of Passover Jesus was hung, and forty days before this the proclamation was made: Jesus is to be stoned to death because he has practiced sorcery and has lured the people to idolatry...He was an enticer and of such thou shalt not pity or condone."

Kallah 51a."The elders were once sitting in the gate when two young lads passed by; one covered his head and the other uncovered his head. Of him who uncovered his head Rabbi Eliezer remarked that he is a bastard. Rabbi Joshua remarked that he is the son of a niddah (a child conceived during a woman's menstrual period). Rabbi Akiba said that he is both a bastard and a son of a niddah.

"They said, 'What induced you to contradict the opinion of your colleagues?' He replied, "I will prove it concerning him." He went to the lad's mother and found her sitting in the market selling beans.

"He said to her, 'My daughter, if you will answer the question I will put to you, I will bring you to the world to come.' (eternal life). She said to him, 'Swear it to me.'

"Rabbi Akiba, taking the oath with his lips but annulling it in his heart, said to her, 'What is the status of your son?' She replied, 'When I entered the bridal chamber I was niddah (menstruating) and my husband kept away from me; but my best man had intercourse with me and this son was born to me.' Consequently the child was both a bastard and the son of a niddah.

"It was declared, '..Blessed be the God of Israel Who Revealed His Secret to Rabbi Akiba..."

In addition to the theme that God rewards clever liars, the preceding Talmud discussion is actually about Jesus Christ (the bastard boy who "uncovered his head" and was conceived in the filth of menstruation). The boy's adulterous mother in this Talmud story is the mother of Christ, Blessed Mary (called Miriam and sometimes, Miriam the hairdresser, in the Talmud).


"The Editio Princeps of the complete Code of Talmudic Law, Maimonides' Mishneh Torah -- replete not only with the most offensive precepts against all Gentiles but also with explicit attacks on Christianity and on Jesus (after whose name the author adds piously, 'May the name of the wicked perish')... --Dr. Israel Shahak, Jewish History, Jewish Religion, p. 21.

"The Talmud contains a few explicit references to Jesus...These references are certainly not complimentary...There seems little doubt that the account of the execution of Jesus on the eve of Passover does refer to the Christian Jesus...The passage in which Jesus' punishment in hell is described also seems to refer to the Christian Jesus. It is a piece of anti-Christian polemic dating from the post-70 CE period..." --Hyam Maccoby, Judaism on Trial, pp. 26-27.

"According to the Talmud, Jesus was executed by a proper rabbinical court for idolatry, inciting other Jews to idolatry, and contempt of rabbinical authority. All classical Jewish sources which mention his execution are quite happy to take responsibility for it; in the talmudic account the Romans are not even mentioned.

"The more popular accounts--which were nevertheless taken quite seriously--such as the notorious Toldot Yeshu are even worse, for in addition to the above crimes they accuse him of witchcraft. The very name 'Jesus' was for Jews a symbol of all that is abominable and this popular tradition still persists...

"The Hebrew form of the name Jesus--Yeshu--was interpreted as an acronym for the curse, 'may his name and memory be wiped out,' which is used as an extreme form of abuse. In fact, anti-zionist Orthodox Jews (such as Neturey Qarta) sometimes refer to Herzl as 'Herzl Jesus' and I have found in religious zionist writings expressions such as "Nasser Jesus" and more recently 'Arafat Jesus." --Dr. Israel Shahak, Jewish History, Jewish Religion, pp. 97- 98, 118.

Originally posted by ZeroDeep
I came across an interesting article and am currently on the brink of finishing it, i decided to stop and post it on ATS for some further insight....

? that, so, were there two different Messiahs ?

I'm a bit confused, i hope Amadeus, or someone else more versed, can add some positive insight.

Deep

Deep, It's more than 2 and probably 4 or more persons, put together will 'fill in' all the gaps of the 'Annointed One'.

you should add the "Issus", a male figure in the Nazorean Sect, living ~32CE, These 'Sons of Light' believers also had a 'position' in the sect termed the 'messiah'...It would be similar to a real-time 'passion play' where the person & actors' role is merged together...

AHHH, to be loosed in the Vaticans' Catacombs...perhaps THEN a scholar could reconstruct the hows & whos the 'suffering Christ' was fabricated from....
don't forget, the 'faithful, believers' at that time, yearning to solidify & fortify their own belief system of the early christian church...would 'fill in the gaps' much like how a contemporary Urban Legend is created & sustained.

good fortune in your quests ZeroDeep

-> gotta read the post from Ashlar...looks interesting...=>>>

Hello Zero Deep and all others:

Actually, folks�.when one refers to �Christ� or �Messiah� he could be referring to any one of a hundred different people in ancient or even medieaval history.

The more common �Babylonian� Talmud (oral law of the Rebbes) was not compiled until after the year 400, in other words in the 5th century AD�a fairly long time to have gathered different legends and stories from various sources about all the failed Messiah's and how to denegrate them

In various passages, the Talmud seems to be stringing together several dubious characters into a single figure named YESHU or YEHOSHU (whom they regard in some way as sorcerers and false prophets) under a name which is cognate of Yehoshua, Yeshu or Yeishu---but there is no consistency in their descriptions---which leads one to believe that several different Messianic Yeshua figures are being referred to and denigrated�and maybe only one may actually have any reference to the Jesus/Yehoshua/Yeshua of the Chirsitian Gospels�

What makes it more complicated is that a name like Yehoshua/Yeshua (Greek �Iesous�) meaning �YHWH is my Salvation� was a very common name in the �occupied� 2nd Temple period in Palestine�BC 430 to AD 70----and may itself have had specific Messianic overtones based on its symbolic Hebrew meaning

(e.g. in Zechariah chapters 9-12 and the Book of Joshua who "by the hand of YHWH rid the Promised Land of the Ammorites" for the Elect of Israel to occupy...

Also, the term CHRIST (or Messiah) is actually a TITLE not a name�and it can be applied to many persons:

In the Bible even foreigners like Cyrus the Persian was called �my Messiah� (saith YHWH) [=�my Christ�] in Isaiah 45:1 ---given that title no doubt because he subdued the Babylonian Empire (as an Agent of YHWH) and issued a Decree which �sent the Israelites back to Palestine� from their occupation in Babylon

i.e. Cyrus fulfilled at least one condition of a Messiah in BC 480 (to return the Jews back to their homeland) when this text was being redacted.

So you can see that the title CHRISTOS (Christ or Messiah) is an exchangeable title which could literally apply to anyone.

The Dead Sea Scroll Community believed that TWO MESSIAHS (or Christs) would arise �in the Last Days�, one priestly (Messiah of Aaron) and one kingly (Messiah of Israel).

Other 1st century branches of Judaeism (e.g. the Ebionites) seemed to have believed that the separate Messiah figures of Aaron and Israel would be merged into one man (like the Cairo Geniza Scrolls found by Shechter in 1897 show, written around AD 138 during the Jewish Revolt of Bar Kochba)

Even the �Ieosus� of the Gospels was reputed to have admitted that many Christs would arise:

�In the Last Days, there shall arise many False Prophets and False Messiahs (�Christoi�) : and these shall show many Signs and Wonders to mislead even the Elect Ones��

�But if any son of man should say to any of you, Behold, the Christ is there, out in the Desert� do not go out to meet him: or if another should say, Lo, the Messiah is here in this room� believe not such a report�.�

Even the shadowy Gospel character �Barabbas� had a first name which was also Jesus or �IESOUS/Yehoshua� in some older MSS copies of Matthew�s gospel �to which the title BAR-ABBAS was added which was Messianic (�Son of the Father�) : IESOUS-BAR-ABBAS�.

(Whom do you wish me to crucify: Jesus who is called Bar-Abbas or Jesus who is called the Messiah?)

No wonder the confused crowds didn�t know which one to pick !

THERE�S MORE

Israel was conquered at least seven times in its history, and occupied by foreign goyim-gentile armies who imposed their own rule on them : Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece and finally Rome (which destroyed Israel in two failed revolts, the first in AD 70, and again in AD 137).

This long and brutal series of Foreign Occupation without their own Daviddic king on the throne aftre 587 BC was a very difficult pill to swallow for a tiny proud nation accustomed to calling itself the �chosen people� ---- and thus they psychologically hoped one day for a coming �Messiah� (�anointed one� or Christ� ) who [in the "Last Days"] would Innaugurate a Reign of God and who would restore David�s line �in the Last Days� and who will �bring back the lost sheep of the House of Israel scattered from amongst the goyim��

Their vision was for a kingdom in which �purified� Israelites will live for 1000 generations �upon the land of Israel� and all the Goyim nations shall act as their vassal slaves and pay tribute to them (�ye shall milk the Blood of the Gentiles� as it says of the "Last Days" in the book of [Trito-]Isaiah, i.e. Isaiah chapters 56-66).

The Book of Revelation has some of this Eschatalogical (Glorified End Times) material buried inside it

This �Day of the Messiah� was seen as a glorious �Future Time� when all would be Restored back to Balance and Justice with a Kingly Son of David safely sitting on the Throne and Peace in the land. (see Amos chapter 9: And in that Day, I shall Rebuild the Tabernacle of David which is Fallen�).

In ancient Canaanite times, those who held any kind of political power (Priests, Kings and Prophets) were all �anointed� (Hebrew: Meshia�q, Greek: Christos) into office with ritual scented olive oil.

This future Christ Figure, or �Anointed One to come� in the Last Days (a Future Time of Reckoning/Judgment of the Gentiles who had brutally invaded Israel and deported its inhabitants) was to incorporate the power and attributes of each one of these 3 power groups which formed the political core of the ancient Israelite �kingdoms�.

Messianic Hope (or �In that Day, They�ll All Get Theirs!�) paralleled a long series of Jewish failed revolts against the occupying forces along with all the leaders who were each a failed Messiah figure or Christ----all hoping to recapture �the glorious� (if mythical) past, and were followed generation after generation by even more �Messiahs� or �Christs� in order to throw off the yokes of Babylon, Persia, Greece, Syria and Rome, all of which ended in failure.

Christians and Jews today are often shocked to learn that there were many �Messiahs� (or Christs) before and after the time of �Jesus� �a man who himself led his own armed disciples up a hill in his foiled attempt at revolt against Rome in AD 36 during the 100th anniversary of the Roman Invasion of Palestine by General Pompey in BC 63.

Jews in the Jerusalem area had re-established their own (non Daviddic) Kingdom and had been under (more or less) self rule for 100 years since the Macabbean revolt of 163 BCto 63BC. So there was 100 years of �freedom�.

Then the Roman Invasion which until AD 36 lasted 100 years exactly.

Iesous, as a Messiah figure, armed his disciples on the 100th year anniversary of the Roman Invasion and led a revolt against Rome in AD 36 (=2 Jubilees or 100 years later) proclaiming such warlike chants as:

�The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand...these be the Days of Vengeance of our God�the Times of the Goyim-Gentiles are fulfilled: Believe it !�

all of which makes sense only if some kind of calendar of 100 year (or Double Jubilee of 50 years each) timetable is being followed:

We see just such a SCHEMA in the Book of Jubilees (The Testament of Moses) where all history is neatly divided into periods of 50 years (or Jubilees = 49 years + 1)

Shimon Bar-Kosiba (Bar Kochba) also called by his followers �Messiah� [or Son of a Star (Bar Kochba)] but he preferred the title �Nasi�, or �Highest One� :

This man was the one who led the 2nd Jewish Revolt against Rome in 132 AD but his attempt at capturing Jerusalem for 2 years was eventually foiled by Roman forces in AD 136:

But The BAr-Kochba Revolt was also TIMED following the 100 year rule---it took place DELIBERATELY 200 years from the time Pompey invaded Jerusalem and defiled the temple�s Holy of Holies--which made it Eschatalogical and therefore MESSIANIC, i.e. having to do with the Last days and the Fulfilment of a grander historic Schema in the eyes of these people and their Weltanschauung.

The term NASI occurs in many of the Dead Sea Scrolls in relation to the Teacher of Righteousness who founded their desert community �in the wilderness of Damascus� and himself was a kind of Priestly-Messiah Figure.

Josephus (in his Jewish War) refers to R. Yehoshua bar Yosef the Galilean (Iesous) only obliquely---i.e. by only mentioning him via his brother James first

e.g.: �Iakkov, the brother of Iesous, who was called Christos�,

and Suetonius mentions a riot among Jews in the mid 40s AD (or Jewish Christians, the two groups were hardly separate back then)

"the riot which was instigated by one Chrestus..." which means that yet another rabble-rouser trying to overthrow the Roman Yoke, even in the capital itself, had the nickname "Christ" attached in some way to him.

The NT mentions at least three other Messiahs in the book of Acts: Theudas, Judah the Galilean, and one unnamed Egyptian Jew.

See Acts 5:37 and Acts 21. And on and on and on....

Do you want more, or are you getting the Picture?




[edit on 19-10-2004 by Amadeus]

jesus could also have been zorastrian (or at least something like that) the founder of the zorastrians, he has some striking smiliarites to jesus

Originally posted by Amadeus


Do you want more, or are you getting the Picture?

I'm getting it..but Ilove to read your posts! More!

OK one more for the road, for Lady V:

A word about Nazarene and Natzir/Netzer:

When I was in college, I once was in an Art Museum and was staring at a lurid painting of "Christ before Pilate"---complete with the "glorious purple" robe and the blood stained face and neck complete with "crown of thorns", in which a little scroll was coming straight out of Pilate's mouth with the tiny words in Latin: ECCE HOMO.

The Curator couldn't explain what the words meant, beyond the literal, i.e. only to say, It's Latin... and it means.... "Behold [the] Man".

So I thought I would quiz him a little (well, he was a curator after all) and teasingly asked him what was really meant behind the phrase:

BEHOLD THE MAN : ECCE HOMO !

but he could not tell me anthing more beyond the literal meaning of the Latin words.

So I asked him if he had ever read Zechariah chapter 6:12: he said no.

Here is the verse in question that links NAZIR (branch) with "Iesous" in the gospels----

Thus saith YHWH of armies,
BEHOLD THE MAN --whose name is The Branch (Ha Natzir) :
he shall grow up out of his place,
and he shall re-build the Temple of YHWH

[cf: "you who would destroy the Temple
and rebuild it in 3 days,
come down from the cross !"]

Ah, said the Curator, that would explain the word NAZIR in the Titilus on the cross on this painting over here...he said pointing to a crucified Jesus with a yellow loincloth.

A lady behind me said: IESOUS NAZARENUS REX IUDAEORUM which means "Jesus of Nazareth King of the Jews."

I told her, "Close, but no Cigar. "

"What it actually means in the Titulus above the cross is : ("Iesous the Natzir, King of the Judaeans..." which suggests that Nazrei/Nazir/Netzer was associated with Messianic Daviddic pretenders even in the Gospel tradition, though its intent is blurred in the Greek.

NETZIR (or NATZIR, "branch") is one of many Titles (but not a place) for the Messiah, from whence the term "Nazorean Christian"came from---the original church headed up by the family of "iesous":

Remember, when Iesous was executed, his brother James, who was absolutely NOT one of the 12 disciples, he took over the ministry based on his Daviddic Bloodline--without question.

I told him that Nazareth was not a place name until after AD 70, although there might have been a town called Genesseret which certainly could lead some to confuse the two.

It does NOT meant "Jesus of Nazareth King of the Jews"

By then some others gathered around and I pointed to the painting and the sneer on the face of Pontius Pilatus and said:

"Here Pilatus is telling the crowd, take a good look at what happens to all wannabe Messiah's who Call themselves the BRANCH of DAVID !"

The Branch prophecies, are all essentially MESSIANIC in character.

(Isa. 4:2) In that day shall the Branch (Netzer) of YHWH be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the earth shall be excellent and comely for them that are escaped of Israel.

(Isa. 11:1) And there shall come forth a Rod out of the Stem of Jesse, and a Branch [NATZIR] shall grow out of his roots;

(Isa. 11:2) And the spirit of YHWH shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of YHWH;


(Isa. 11:10) And in that Day there shall appear the Root of Jesse,
which shall stand for an Ensign to the people;
to it shall the Gentiles seek oracles;
and his reign (or "rest") shall be glorious.

Jer. 23:5

Behold, the Days are coming, saith YHWH,
that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch (Natzir)
and a King shall reign and prosper,
he shall shall execute Judgment and Justice in the Land of Israel

(Jer. 23:6) In his Days Yehudah/Judah shall be saved (Yeshua)

One can see at a glance how the early Nazorean Church grafted on these NETZER qualities on to "Iesous" as the Messiah in the Gospel tradition....

That should hold you till tomorrow..!

I have always wondered about the whole "Nazareth/Nazarene" thing. I had presumed that the title derived from a place of residence.

Perhaps there is indeed still something to that -- maybe a village named "Nazir" in Israel?

As always, excellent and thought-provoking posts from the maestro, Amadeus, in a thread that is itself most excellent.


[edit on 10/19/2004 by Majic]

Yesu ha-Notzri is the anti christians jews' name for Jesus.
Yeshu is acronym of Yemhu smu w'Zikro ( hebrew for May God wipe out his name and his remembrance)
this name was given by jews to all their enemies from themselves , like false prophets or even worse pretenders to be Messiah or God himself.

After the supposed death of Jesus in 32 AD the jews were very happy for some time to get rid of Jesus, However three years after Jesus the disasters started pouring on the jews one after the other, starting by the appontment of a very arrogant Roman Governer who wanted to put the Picture of Caesar inside the temple, jews begged him but he kept killing them by the hundreds, it got worse till the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.
The Rabbis intructed the survivers of the jews to pray a before bed prayer to kill the christians who somehow survived the massacre and suddenly their numbers began to equal the jews. For while the Christians were being tortured by the jews to death, the after math of the Roman massacre that the christians started taking revenge on the jews.
So when ever hear a jew mention the word "Yshu" he would hit him on the head and ask him "what did you say his name again?"
the jew out of fear would reply "Yshua" instead of 'Yshu" of course Yshu is kind of a spell ( Satanic spell) against Jesus, while Yeshua is the name of Joshua the great hero of the Jews( the servant or adopted son of Moses).

As for the second part of the name Ha-Notzri it is made of two parts Ha and Notzri:
Notzri means a person who is being given by his parents to the temple as a kind of slave to God ( ie such man can not marry or do any thing but work for the temple and pray for the people and memorize the scriptures and transcribe them.
Mary mother of Jesus was one of those and automatically Jesus was a Notzri.
While Notzri as a titlewas a great thing at the time of Moses since it implies being descendent of Aaron, and part of the Zadokim high priest class, Notzari was even a speciall class among Zadokim (Cohenites--lineage of Aaron), but by the time of Jesus (1200 years after Moses) the Levites were very hated by the jews because the jews considered them responsible for Babylonian diaspora. Many levites did not return, and Juda the Maccabi usurped the office of High Priest of the temple to himself and his posterity ( from the Levitic Zadokites), Jews also stopped giving the religious tax to the Levites enough, that Levites became very poor and needy)
For this, Levites accepted that jews from other tribes ( Juda, Efraim (joseph) to become scribes ( a job only for levites usually by the Law of Moses ), from this inexperienced new class came out the pharaisees who were a mixture of little levites but mainlyfrom Juda).
However the orthodox levites who refused to be corrupted worked in secret to maintain the bible ( transcribing) and they became opposed to the pharaisees ( who as the new scribes class accepted taking money directly from people and became well taken care ).

Ha means Head of , so when you say Ha-Notzari, you mean head of the Notzari class ( a special class in the highly reputable Zadokites the children of Aaron( reputable but very poor and outside the temple).
Jesus was a Notzari ( given to the temple) However there is a deragotary shout at donkeys to keep them going "Ha"
So what the pharaisees ( the proto Rabbis) made fun of the memory of the departed Jesus by calling him Ha-Notzari which is supposed to mean ( head of Zadokites ) to mean something else ( Ha-poor man) since notzari were very very poor and miserable ( levites were not allowed to work or own or inherit-Notzari were moreover not allowed to marry or relax like other levites).

However the Christians were not bothered by the second part of the word of "Yshu Ha-Notzari" and they called themselves Nazarim in respect of Jesus being Notzari and to retaliate back at their tormentors the pharaisiees.

Yshua rather Yshu is not a curse so christians adopt.

I am new and found this after searching for 'notzri' I would like to read more on the subject but you guys didn't cite any other works, online or off. Can anyone point me in a direction?

To those conspiracists, have you read The Two Babylons?
www.jesus-is-lord.com...

Anyone know if there's an online Tosefta, Baraitas where I can read more about Rabbi Yehoshua ben Perachyah?

reply to post by ZeroDeep


Bored with the lack of new post, I dug into the archive.
This looks like realy interesting stuff.
I have run into a bunch of references to some of these characters on Google searches on John Hyracanus.
I think this former high priest was the type of Jesus.
He shared a lot of atributes of Jesus.
A little confusing because there was the John who was the contemporary of Antipater and then the son with the same name who was a contemporary of Herod, the son of Antopater.
I am not expert enough to come to a serious comment on the subject matter in this thread.
What I can do is try to repeat the opinion of someone I knew who is an expert.
This is a Rabbi I was studying under.
His doctor's degree was from his study of the split between christianity and judaism.
He says that Jesus was a composit of several people.
My theory is different.
It involves a scandal that was covered up.
John's Hyracanus' name comes from a direct intent to take on a Greek name.
Suppose Jesus did that.
What about Caesarea and his trip there.
How about the fact that the reason he lived in Nazarith was to help build a roman town in that area.
Jesus would have been his original jewish name and they had to use it to sell the new religion.
The historical Jesus is probubly staring us in the face.
I think so and I think there is more of a connection between Pilot and Jesus than the church would like us to know.
Jesus, despite claiming to not be political, was actually a political genius.
John Hyrcanus was put into power four times by Generals and as many times by Kings and Emperors.

reply to post by adnanmuf


Sorry adnanmuf, but that is the most pitiful attempt to falsify hebew as I have ever seen, but lets use your false definitions of ha and notzri and see how silly it is


Daveed HaMelek would mean David head king
HaShem would mean Head Name
Pablo HaTov would mean Pablo head good
Ha in hebrew means "the" .. now look above and use the proper word

as for notzri ... well.. I'm won't even bother....

I'll just point out the HUGE, Gaping hole in your bucket of water....
If "Yeshua" (jesus) was really a Zadokite as you state (children of Aaron) ... well... then he's a Levite... and therefore can not in any way shape or form be the xtain messiah... he has to be from the line of david... a ... yep, you guessed it ... a jew (tribe of judah) ...

better luck next time

What, exactly is the reason why some of you still continue to suggest that anyone was responsible for the death of Jesus besides himself? Does this quote ring any bells?: John 10, 17 "Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. 18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down , and I have power to take it again." This quote is from the King James Authorized Bible translation, and is, therefore, free to be used by anyone.

Using the word, Messiah, can be something of a challenge to deal with.

There are heaps of biases for/against this/that regarding the use of the Messiah. If one uses the Bible or the Tanach as a source for legitimacy, it is very easy to use a concordance to look up the word Messiah and reveal its use, purpose and function.

For me, studies have revealed it to be a job title. There have been many, many, many Messiahs. This can come as a terrible shock to some still wrestling with the for/against this/that biases.

The first Messiah we find is Shaul (Saul). The second Daveed (David). Central to the story of Yeshua (Jesus) is the woman who will never be forgotten- the woman who anointed him with oil on his head (she made him Mashiach ("anointed one")).

Other Notzri (shoots) can be found with Shabbatai Tvi, or Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson that began/begin to leave the traditional Rabbinical idea of Judaism.

Although the use of the word נוצרי is almost exclusively used for Xians (both followers of the Messiahs Tvi and Schneerson like to avoid group identification conflicts with Xians).