Catholics to exclude dodgers of church tax

Catholics to exclude dodgers of church tax .

www.theaustralian.com.au

ROMAN Catholics in Germany who decline to pay the country's church tax will be denied communion, confession and a religious burial under moves signed by the Pope that, in effect, excommunicate them.

The decree, issued yesterday by Germany's bishops and approved by Benedict XVI, seeks to end a long-running dispute over the implications for Germany's 24.6 million Catholics of opting out from a church tax.

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It would seem that many German Catholics have been leaving the church.... apparently as a reaction to decades of child abuse against German children by members of German Priests coming to light about two years ago.

Despite this church levy being optional, at the behest of German Bishops and with the approval of the Pope, Germans who do not pay will be refused the right to be members of a congregation, take communion, become God-parents or even to have a religious funeral.

Bizarre!!! Wasn't it this kind of conduct that caused the Reformation in the first place???

Martin Luther and his 95 Theses
A German monk by the name of Martin Luther was particularly bothered by the selling of indulgences. An indulgence, a religious pardon that released a sinner from performing specific penalties, could be bought from a church official for various fees. Martin Luther was especially troubled because some church officials gave people the impression that they could buy their way into heaven. To express his growing concern of church corruption, Martin Luther wrote his famous 95 Theses, which called for a full reform of the Christian Church. In it, he stressed the following points:

- People could only win salvation by faith in God's forgiveness. The Church taught that faith, along with good works was needed for salvation.

- The Pope is a false authority. The bible was the one true authority.

- All people with faith in Christ were equal. People did not need priest and bishops to interpret the bible for them. They could read it themselves and make up their own minds.

Source



www.theaustralian.com.au
(visit the link for the full news article)

That`s mighty christian like of the pope, didn`t jesus himself once say " thou must payeth to prayeth"? or not.
This is just more proof that catholics aren`t christians it`s just another cult masquerading as christians to attract new members.

Can you Catholics see now that there is something really wrong with the church you belong to?

Study history. The Roman Catholic church was created out of pagan influence coupled with a bastardized form of Christianity by the Roman rulers so they could more effectively control the masses.

Catholicism has Nothing to do with real Christianity !

You have to go back to the New testament and see how Christians were really made with the commands of Jesus telling how to do this at the end of each Gospel and then in the book of Acts telling how the Apostles carried out Jesus commands of conversion. This is as far from anything the Catholics believe, it's night and day.

Point is, there are tons of biblical and historical evidence to prove you guys are following a false spiritual leader and he's pulling you down into Hell with him. This news above is just the tip of the iceberg - it's going to get much worse so get out and find a true Christian religion while you can.

reply to post by christina-66

The fastest growing religion in America: "None"
Secularization


I didn't find the graphs for Germany and the UK but I wouldn't be surprised if they followed similar trends, in fact the UK is probably ahead of the US in this trend.

Actions like in the OP might speed this trend up a bit in Germany.

And to any out-of-work, beggar, homeless Catholics out there: "Sorry! No Pay, No Pray!

"How can you expect us to allow you into our church if you can't help to pay for the countless child abuse lawsuits which have so unfairly landed on the Pope's doorstep?

There is a little more to this story than we see at first glance. The "tax" is collected by the state, under their laws. It is not only for Catholics, but identified members of certain religions including Judaism. You can get out of paying that tax if you declare to state officials that you are not a member of or connected with Catholicism, Judaism, or whatever.

Now that a person has declared he's not a Catholic, the Church says "Fine, if you're not a Catholic, then we'll treat you like you're not a Catholic." What's the problem? If you don't like the tax, don't look to the Pope to solve it, this was done entirely by the German government. Get them to change their laws.

reply to post by JohnPhoenix


I'm not Catholic so don't take this as a confrontational type of question but, what would you consider a "true Christian religion"?

Originally posted by Tardacus
That`s mighty christian like of the pope, didn`t jesus himself once say " thou must payeth to prayeth"? or not.
This is just more proof that catholics aren`t christians it`s just another cult masquerading as christians to attract new members.

When you say it that way it sounded like Jesus had a lisp....lol

Was it the Pope's decision for this or was it his boss's the Black Pope Adolpho Nicholas?

If I was a German Catholic I would breathe a sigh of relief and go tell the Pope to go to hell.

I'm not a believer myself. As far as I'm concerned God and Jesus are the same thing. The Sun. But hearing something like that from a guy who is supposed to be a man for the people makes me sick. Those dress wearing idiots have gotten away with too much.

I think the people should Excommunicate the Roman Catholic Church (Babylonian Trinity Church)

reply to post by charles1952


Yes...the 'church tax' is taken from every German of whatever religion to support it's running costs. However, it is supposed to be voluntary. Here in the UK, at my local church (not catholic) we make a donation at the service....if we choose not to donate the minister won't bar us from services/refuse to marry us/ or bury us.

Around 180,000 Germans a year are 'leaving' the Catholic Church and, according to the news articles, this is as a direct consequence of child abuse by priests. I feel sorry for these German Catholics.....starving the German Church of funds seems like a legitimate response to force it to get it's house in order. Instead the Catholic Church denies them the core practices of their faith (which seems to be rather cruel to me) when what the people really want is justice for their children and a change in management.

Anyway....what about all of the 'Render unto Caesar' stuff Jesus mentions in the Bible.

"Real Christianity!?" Interesting. The Pope is sending people to hell and people who follow the Catholic church are going to hell? Interesting.

By the way, pointing out Luther (who condoned genocide) does not really help you. I hope more intelligent people will see this as it is: religion mixing with politics. In the US it is having disasterous consequences. I am so glad the founding fathers abhored such superstition mixing with civil national matters.

When you mean hell do you mean the viking place of the dead? We know that the idea of the "Day of Judgement," did not enter monotheism until the Judahites encountered Zorastrianism during the exile to Babylonia.

I find protestants funny and scary, they remind me of wahhabis; and they are essentially. As for the Catholic church, well its idiocy speaks for itself.

Excommunication? Well maybe this will give former catholics time now to communicate with reality, so much greater than either Jesus could have or the Pope could ever imagine.

I find evangelicals funny and scary. Sorry for the (slight) mix-up.

Isnt the pope german? Pretty cruel to do this to his home country. I guess he's still mad he was a hitler youth.

As for someone who asked what a true christian is, considering Jesus opposed the temple and high priests, a true religion is one based on love and wisdom, and not a high and mighty citadel.

Originally posted by JohnPhoenix
Catholicism has Nothing to do with real Christianity

:shk: Face it. The Catholic church is the church that put the bible together.
Without the Catholic church, there would be no Christianity in the world today.
And Catholics are just as much 'christian' as Lutherans or Baptists or Episcopalians.
Each group has their 'issues'. Each group has their own interpretation of Christianity.
That doesn't make any of them 'not Christian'. It just makes them different from
each other.

there are tons of biblical and historical evidence to prove you guys

I could easily make the bible say anything I want. I could make God look like a devil in disguise. I could make the Jews look like saints or like demons. Whatever my mood is. It's very easy to cherry pick scripture.

Originally posted by christina-66
reply to post by charles1952

 

Yes...the 'church tax' is taken from every German of whatever religion to support it's running costs. However, it is supposed to be voluntary. Here in the UK, at my local church (not catholic) we make a donation at the service....if we choose not to donate the minister won't bar us from services/refuse to marry us/ or bury us.

Around 180,000 Germans a year are 'leaving' the Catholic Church and, according to the news articles, this is as a direct consequence of child abuse by priests. I feel sorry for these German Catholics.....starving the German Church of funds seems like a legitimate response to force it to get it's house in order. Instead the Catholic Church denies them the core practices of their faith (which seems to be rather cruel to me) when what the people really want is justice for their children and a change in management.

Anyway....what about all of the 'Render unto Caesar' stuff Jesus mentions in the Bible.

Hi,

This really isn't a Catholic Church issue and I think the article is misleading by implying it is. As Charles1952 says above, the 'tax' is collected by the state, not the church and cannot be compared to the donations made directly to the church. It seems in the UK we are different from most of Europe in this respect.

I ask your forgiveness in advance, this may be harsher than I want it to be.

No one is being kicked out because they refuse to pay the tax. Paying the tax is between the individual and the government. The system was set up that way by the government, not the Church.

People are getting "kicked out" because they say officially, on the record, "I am not Catholic." The only reason the Church is getting involved is because they have to decide what to do with people who announce they aren't members. The Church has decided to accept them at their word. That seems to be fair, just, and appropriate.

Many posters here seem to be arguing about something that doesn't exist

If you want to leave the Catholic Church here in germany you also have to pay
the procedere. Costs are between 0€ and 50€, depending on the state where you live.
Btw. The Churchtax here in germany is 8-9% from your monthly earnings.
So you see if you leave church it pays.

All info on this issue down here, german website (partly in english)

Leaving Church in germany

reply to post by something wicked


I know it's the German state's system but it is German Bishops who initiated this action...and the Pope who ratified it. I have to disagree with you and say that this really is therefore a Catholic issue.

A secular authority demanding citizens to pay a church tax? This does not sound like a tax coming from the church, but from the government. People ought to be railing against the civil authority over this, because they passed it. Why are these Germans not pressuring their members of parliament to hold a referrendum on this? That is the crux of the matter. Furthermore, it seems like these people have to declare what denomination they are on their tax form? What kind of crap is that? What does it matter to big brother what religion someone adheres too? Are they gonna start handing out patches and armbands as well? Of all places in the world to have something like this happen? Germany? This is not right at all!

I am disturbed that the Vatican and the German bishops have gone along with this decree. Not a good move by them, and they should have fought it in the courts. This is the first I have heard of this, and although some have engaged in a kneejerk reactions about it. Lets wait until more comes out. If this hairbrained idea continues? People are going to leave the Catholic Church in droves, or start having underground services like they do in China and in the former Soviet Union. This is ridiculous!

Originally posted by KaiserSoze
reply to post by JohnPhoenix

 

I'm not Catholic so don't take this as a confrontational type of question but, what would you consider a "true Christian religion"?

I consider a true Christian church one that teaches how to become a Christian by the example of Jesus and the Apostles as laid out in the bible. Mark 16: 16 sums it up in a nut shell. " He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned" At the end of each of the 4 Gospels we see Jesus giving the great commission to go forth and make disciples of all nations. Jesus always taught two main things - repentance, and baptism for the forgiveness of sins. Jesus was even baptized this way by John the baptist. At the end of each of the Gospels, Jesus tells the disciples to go and do these two things. Beginning in Acts ch 2 ( after Jesus went into heaven) and onward throughout the new testament we see the apostles doing only and always these two things to make converts. They did not say a sinners prayer to invite Jesus into their hearts. This is un-biblical - look at all the examples in the new testament and prove that this was never done - ( they claim it was done once in Romans, that's where they get the roman road/sinners prayer but they are taking the out of context) The disciples always after someone shows fruits for repentance, baptized them in the name of Jesus, not in the name of the Father Son and Holy Ghost.

There are several churches that believe this, you'll have to ask around but they must adhere to repentance ( turning away from your sins) baptism in the name of Jesus ( a full dunking) baptism in any other name or the title Father Son and Holy Ghost will not do. They must believe in living Jesus's words and doing all His commandments.

I was raised baptist which believes in a sinners prayer. I noticed they were not doing some things that were in the bible so I prayed for God to show me why. After much prayer, fasting and study, I believe God led me to a group of Christians that had the answers this is how they believed. After baptism it's encouraged to study pray, fast and live Jesus's words, through the doing of the words one will gain knowledge and truth through the Holy Spirit since Jesus words are spirit and life. It makes perfect since to me because it is exactly what the Bible teaches with no deviations. The particular church I belong to does not have a denominational name but is only considered a Christian Church.