The Great UFO Cover Up? : Berwyn Mountains, Wales, Jan 1974

a reply to: ScottGogleddCymru

Hi Scott,

There are numerous quotes from Magaret Fry's book referencing various people suggesting satellites theories. The army unit that contained multiple informers told Hooper, Redfern and Fry independently about the satellite theory.

Have you any thoughts on why so many informers came from one unit?

I have contemplated this considering my interviews with three ex-military men, also what was independently told Tony Dodd, Terry Hooper, and Nick Redfern; could it possibly have been a man-made space satellite? Although this supposition is flawed, because no one has ever told us they saw anything crash down. It may however, account for the authorities knowing beforehand that something would crash and possibly in the North Wales area, for they can track satellites in trouble and predict more or less where they will crash down.

a reply to: ctj83

My understanding is, that no one ever said it was a satellite. Several have suggested it might have been but they were only theories. The idea wasn't even really pushed as a reality unlike for instance the John Williams version, where steps were taken to give an idea substance to make it more credible and acceptable to the wider public.

I know that Margaret Fry interviewed lots of serving and ex military personnel but not necessarily to do with UFOs directly or even the Berwyn case. She often consulted persons working in different subjects for their opinions on various possible propulsion technologies for instance. Her own father worked in the Atomic industry and because of that was able to consult people in that subject for their opinions on all sorts of things. I think the assumption here is that interviews with military people involved personnel directly involved in any clean up! That was not always the case.

Lots of people over the years, including myself have received anonymous info' about the Berwyn event. The original idea was a UFO crash and informants appeared claiming they cleaned up a crashed UFO and even recovered corpses of aliens etc. Then there is the suggestion of a satellite recovery. It can't be both or more. Now the evidence points to no crash at all, but a controlled landing.

What has been evident over the years is thee seems to be competing multiple agencies involved in rubbishing this event. Agencies, not singing off the same hymn sheet, but with similar aims, to disrupt research into this matter. Huw Lloyd who lived at Garthiaen Farm at the time in Llandrillo and who was the youth who drove the Police search party around the fields where the hunting lads had been and where a plane was suspected of crashing, took a rock his sister found near the house to their Headmaster at Ysgol y Berwyn, Bala because it looked odd. The Head knew personally, Aneurin Evans who was involved in the Berwyn cover up and the rock was passed on to him. After some weeks and pressing from the kids, it came back with a note 'nothing of importance'. Except, it wasn't the same rock. Months later, Huw got a visit from people claiming to be from a London university asking if they could examine the rock. Naively, he handed it over. He never saw it again because the visitors didn't exist when checked upon.

The Astronomers involved swapped that rock, taking anything out of public circulation that caused suspicion even though Huw's home was miles from the UFO site. Another group came along and basically removed from circulation a dud rock. So there was at least two interested parties there.

Tony Dodd's informants according to Margaret Fry were nearly always anonymous. We only have Terry Hooper's word for it that he was (if) ever informed of anything and I've no doubt Nick Redfern received similar. The thread here is that whatever was on the Berwyns at that time, was believed to have been crash debris of some kind. My belief is that the crash scenario itself was invented by over zealous UFO enthusiasts linking Mrs Evans' encounter with the earth tremor which occurred at 20.38 - higher up this thread I typed wrongly and put 20.48!!!. This was hijacked by the Authorities and exploited, the promotion of a crash took place and to divert attention from the concept of an extra terrestrial vehicle being involved, that crash scenario was further pushed as for instance a crashed satellite. This all leads away from the ET hypothesis.

Andy Roberts in his debunking masterpiece tried to suggest in a carefully crafted way as more likely fact than fiction, that the culprit was possibly a stray missile from 'nearby' (70 odd miles away actually) Aberporth. The quote above is contemporary with the time when it was believed a crash had occurred of 'something'. Margaret Fry only considered the satellite theory in attempt to fathom what had actually occurred. She considered lots of alternatives to an ET related crash but like everyone else stuck by the crash scenario until that could be challenged.

Caution must be advised in relation to a suspected army unit on the hillside when the Berwyn craft came down. That should not be confused with any other unit claimed by informants to exist and involved in any other clean up or recovery. The 'unit' you refer to above is in my thoughts little more than a think tank in some shady office somewhere with access to a bank of telephones and a remit to subvert.

a reply to: ScottGogleddCymru

Thanks for the phenomenally detailed answers Scott. You've done excellent research. Do you still believe that one of the outhouses or sheds next to the river was used for some sort of military operation.

Like you, I don't believe Operation PhotoFlash was anything more than disinformation. Same for the professional 5 and so much else.

So my questions would be:
- Do you have anything left to research or is Berwyn now a dead end?
- did you make any progress on that very suspicious turning circle?
- What do you believe might have happened in reality?
- can you clarify - do you believe there was any military presence anticipating the event?
- Have you had any disruption personally from agents of disinformation

a reply to: ctj83

Things advance all the time as new info' comes forward as you'll appreciate. I was given information about a military unit using an outhouse at a property along the Ceidiog Valley which was rented from the owner. The info was given in good faith, but wrong. When supplied, the informant believed based on his memory that the unit occupied the outhouse at the time of the Berwyn event. However this was not true. Or seemingly so.

I left a note at the property asking the owner to contact me. Some time passed but I received a reply and was invited to the place. It transpired that the owner had died and relatives in the West Midlands had inherited the property. A very nice couple who listened to what I had to say. They had heard of the Berwyn UFO and were interested in their property's possible involvement.

It turned out that the MoD had approached the former owner and requested that a unit of men be billeted in said outhouse. A rent was offered for its use and inconvenience of the owner. I tried to recover details of the bill/receipts etc via a FOI but turned up nothing.

The men were stationed there in February 1982 while the Hawker trainer plane, dead pilot and debris was removed, which crashed on the 12th. When everything was sorted and settled, the then owner received a framed picture of a RAF search & rescue helicopter as a thank you. I was shown and handled it.

The Berwyn case is far from over. I've recently turned my attention to another part of the Range because of some disruption to the surface vegetation in a very remote but accessible part of the moorland.

The whole of the Berwyn case starts before the 23rd of Jan' '74. This date only becomes a focal point because of the likes of Pat Evans seeing what she saw and how she came to see it. It seems there were observations of aerial lights in the vicinity of the Berwyns before the 23rd and thereafter too. The diary entry of an occasional meteorologist and former gamekeeper at Llanrhaeadr ym Mochnant records a seemingly hovering UFO near that village some time after the 23rd. It is my belief that a vehicle of extra terrestrial origin for whatever reason was coming down on the mountainside of Cader Berwyn prior to the 23rd and on the 23rd, an operation was mounted against it, to collect data and shoo it off. I believe there was an organised military event in operation and the reason they were there where the UFO came down is because they were reasonably expecting it. Also, that night was chosen because there was a scheduled meteor shower which would provide a cover story if detection occurred, which it did. Debunkers used the meteor shower to try and discredit any sighting of aerial lights etc. That shooing might sound crazy, but its position was so exposed even if very difficult to reach on foot, that if there was a concerted effort to deny the public knowledge of ET visitation, it is a lot harder to rubbish if multiple witnesses observe one.

However, on the 23rd, lots seemingly went wrong and warranted extra effort to contain. Don't forget, if it hadn't been for Pat Evans' observation, there would be no UFO event. If it hadn't been for disjointed and dishonest military/Police cooperation, Mrs Evans would have been directed to Llandrillo and the area of a Police search to offer her medical assistance and had she gone there, there would be no Berwyn UFO event. The Police at Colwyn Bay knew full well their officers were conducting a search for a suspected plane crash above Llandrillo, an event they could not ignore even if Gwynedd Constabulary (as it was then until April 1974) was aware of a military operation on the mountains. They deliberately misled Pat Evans. They deliberately failed to engage the local mountain rescue team too which had searched the Berwyns many times for various reasons but on this occasion were ignored in favour of a three man team from Anglesey.

It was the earth tremor which brought the villagers from miles around from their homes and in so doing became aware of various events that they'd be totally unaware of if that seismic activity had not occurred. The hunter's light above Llandrillo would not have been seen and thus no connection with the tremor and light (singular by the way!) Thus, no major incident log or search by Police or RAF Valley search and rescue team etc, etc.

I've gotten nowhere with the turning circle. It was Richard Hall who actually discovered that. We'd met up to film the aforementioned outhouse and after a bit of filming, he went off talking to some of the locals and as a result of one conversation was pointed in the direction of the plantation through which the track goes and terminates at the circle.

The APEN stuff is as far as I'm concerned disinformation from Day 1. You'll be aware of its association with Berwyn and I believe it was an attempt to discredit the 23rd of Jan' '74 event by associating UFO enthusiasts who might start poking about with the Far Right. It comes as no surprise to me that Russ Kellett is a far right nut job. Terry Hooper is up to his eye balls in this and has been there in the back ground from the off. Once Margaret Fry started looking into the case in the early 90s, Jenny Randles got increasingly frustrated as she wanted in on her research. Margaret Fry started to distrust Randles more and more as she tried to monopolise the event and swerve public opinion towards the event occurring above Llandrillo on the mid slopes of Cader Bronwen Mountain rather than on Cader Berwyn. Like Andy Roberts, she knew exactly where that object was but she tried to divert the story to elsewhere, bringing her geiger counter/stone circle/leukaemia into the mix. Mrs Fry and Jenny Randles don't even communicate any more.

It was in the 90s that Hooper decided to send his metal fragment to Mrs Fry. She'd been researching UFO stuff since the late 1950s and was a direct witness to the Bexley Heath UFO, but only she received a metal fragment from Hooper, only once she took up the Berwyn gauntlet. Considering his metal was not UFO related, Hooper had many opportunities to pass that on to any random UFO researcher anywhere in Britain, but he didn't. It only appeared when she started gleaning useful info' on the Berwyn event. Hooper I seem to recall once claimed he'd seen APEN material in a UFO enthusiasts's home. I don't have a problem with that. I have a problem with once again, only his word for it. He has produced ziltch to back up anything he has ever claimed. Personally, I think he was trying to frame someone in order to distance himself from it. His whole mission seems to be about discrediting innocent people who just happen to be UFO researchers. He'll do whatever it takes, including making a big scene over the 'misuse' of a town name.

a reply to: ScottGogleddCymru

Any idea what might have been of interest to such a visitor in that part of the world?

Also, are you aware of any antenna arrays or dishes within line of sight of the mountain?

a reply to: ctj83

I have pondered that, to no avail. If a vehicle of extraterrestrial origin was indeed returning to that location over a period of weeks, then something must have been attracting it. Having said that, why only seemingly at night? For an intelligent organism within to imagine it must need the cover of darkness to do whatever it did (assuming there was some living entity (ies) within), suggests awareness and need to remain concealed. This further suggests any entity within the craft feared detection for whatever reason.

When Pat Evans noticed it, it was glowing and quite large or at least the light dimensions were large. Richard D. Hall in his film produced a graphic suggesting it may have been about the size of a modern house. That of course suggests it wasn't at least then, trying to remain concealed, but circumstances where different that night as it was seemingly being approached and a few minutes after Mrs Evans left for home, it lifted off and flew over Llangynog towards the border with England.

It actually reminds me of the only curious 'UFO' I've ever seen, namely a small luminous sphere on the banks of the River Mersey in Liverpool in the mid-80s. My dog detected the little UFO either by scent or hearing. It was below us at the base of the promenade wall, so the dog couldn't see it. I looked over the wall down onto the mud and shingle below and then, an object lit up from within the shadow of the wall - it was just going light about half way through August - I was doing a recce on ducks flighting in in readiness for the duck shooting season starting on September 1st.

The object was doing whatever it was doing in total darkness, but lit up when I looked down below where my dog was transfixed. Had it not lit up, I'd have been none the wiser and bollocked my dog for disobedience. It was a small sphere hovering about a foot or so above the mud. The light I feel surrounded a smaller solid centre. It moved off across the mud still hovering and after about a hundred yards, reached the water's edge. It ploughed through a flock of wading birds and gulls which rose in alarm. The light vanished, either going out or submerging in the water.

That is my only UFO sighting. My point here is that it seemed to 'power up' in illumination before moving off and maybe, the Berwyn UFO was doing something similar and that is why it was glowing when Mrs Evans spotted it? Had it been there unilluminated, a thousand cars could have passed along that road and no one would have seen it over a mile away in the dark.

I'm not aware of any antennae or dishes etc beyond mobile phone masts today, but that doesn't mean something wasn't there in the 70s in a line of sight. I have considered that any operation mounted against the Berwyn UFO may have involved possibly mobile detection technology on vantage points in advance of an expected arrival. I'm aware of a claim that a military unit/group of soldiers turned up in a farmyard within a 20/30 min hike to the UFO location about 9.30pm that night, one of them asking if he could use the telephone as their radios wouldn't work. This he did and a few mins later they all left.

I believe I know the identity of this girl who opened the door to them, but she has been elusive. I was told this information via a local farmer who'd been asked to relay it to me as the girl wanted to remain anonymous. I mention it anecdotally as although the info' was given in good faith, I've yet to fully confirm it. It has been my policy not to entertain anonymous information unless it comes via a face to face source.

a reply to: ScottGogleddCymru

This might be of interest. The Orange orb seen floating over the harbour, the night by Shag Harbour, by author Chris Styles matches the description and size estimate of Hall's to within a few feet.

a reply to: ctj83

My understanding is there were four orbs?

As a matter of interest too, I was checking my notes from the Mike Saville interview and there was a snippet I forgot about relating to the Object's dimensions.

Mr Saville re-enacted his movements from coming out of the house to immediately spotting the object and then getting his (now ex) wife out to see what he was seeing. The geography of his garden boundary trees and outbuildings was fortuous. He stood on a raised stone platform which was part of the wall of an outbuilding and that wall and his face/eyes/line of sight went straight out towards Cader Berwyn. The sight line itself drawn straight over the mountains passed just a few hundred yards north of Llangynog where witnesses claimed to have seen the UFO pass over head soon after departure.

The estimated distance from him to what he was seeing was about 5.5 miles. As for estimating size of the 'light' which could have been much larger than any structure craft within, Mr Saville stretched out his arm fully pointing towards it and the dimensions where a tad larger than the bottom of a standard tin of baked beans, so about 7 cms diameter.

As the object/light descended slowly and left their view about 9.20 pm, it had actually sunk behind a small hill I later identified as Cefn Coch. Line of sight from Mr Saville's abode at the time meant that the known height of that hill (Cefn Coch means Red Ridge) also dictated where on the slopes of Cader Berwyn the Object was perched when discovered by Mrs Evans some 40 mins later. As it had disappeared behind Cefn Coch, that meant it must have been below its summit height and line of sight from that summit to the Berwyn slope beyond. That whittled down the area of mountainside where it must have been.

Now Andy Roberts had tried repeatedly to debunk what Mrs Evans saw about 10pm and one of his claims was that she had no points of reference to work from, so had no idea where this object actually was. That was a blatant untruth.

As the B 4391 climbs upwards from the Bala area in the Dee Valley, it starts to level out as it reaches the summit point for the road. There is a point where Mrs Evans got her first view of the Object. The road runs roughly level then for about 0.66 of a mile before it starts dropping down towards Llangynog. As it does, the view to the left becomes obscured as the bank rises. Thus, there is a point where the Object is lost from sight.

Between the two points there is a corridor going straight out across the moorland and slopes. Her Object must have been sat somewhere within those parameters. That info' was withheld to try and discredit Mrs Evans.

When Mike Saville's testimony arrived, a line drawn from his home cut right across that corridor and even allowing for margins of error, the Object could have not been further right of left of Cefn Coch, so the area it was sat could be narrowed down even further.

I narrowed that mountainside down to just a few hundred sq' yards.

So, I imagine the graphic created by Richard D. Hall in his film was quite accurate.

a reply to: ScottGogleddCymru
Very interesting. My previous post was misworded - Chris saw the 50ft object the night before Shag Harbour.

I can remember this being reported on the news the day after, probably the most important UFO case in UK after RFI,
Richard d hall's film of this case is very informative and is available on u tube.

My first post on this forum and I choose this thread because it's quite intriguing to be fair.

Personally I think the Berwyn UFO stuff is a load of twaddle and was probably a military exercise.

Secondly I have read about Darren Perks on other websites. He seems a bit strange I will give him that, but what if all the things he has done in the UFO community are a set up?

It could of all been planned to disrupt the cycle of information etc. What if the authorities actually do stuff like that and try to get a reaction from people with an interest? I may be thinking a bit wildly here but you can't rule this out.

If the guy gained lots of info by nicking other people's research etc, then what has he done with it? Or who has got it now.

Not being funny but those people he got in with a few years ago must be thinking this in the back of their minds. I know I would be after seeing all the random made up stuff it looks like he could of done.

I love the UFO subject but these last few years you can't trust anyone or any website that's claims to know lots about it.

Just saying.

a reply to: ScottGogleddCymru

Great post and I'd tend to agree with Mrs Fry's opinion on Mr/Mrs Randles.

Very interesting interview by the way and hats off to you for your research.