John Keely, what are your opinions about this man that lived over a hundred years ago?

reply to post by sinohptik


Cavitation does not "dissociation" make. All that says is that if I shake water really hard really fast it forms bubbles and will splash a lot. There's a qualitative difference between that and "cease to be water".

The other issue is that most of the Keely sites don't seem to be able to distinguish between sound, EM and whatnot, which really sort of limits their credibility to zero.

reply to post by Bedlam


My point is that cavitation is likely the process that is being observed.

It just tends to be explored through avenues which discredit "mainstream" science as bunk, and as you say, limits their credibility.

Edit: Cavitation isnt "just bubbles and splashing."

Originally posted by sinohptik
reply to post by Bedlam

 

My point is that cavitation is likely the process that is being observed.

It just tends to be explored through avenues which discredit "mainstream" science as bunk, and as you say, limits their credibility.

Edit: Cavitation isnt "just bubbles and splashing."

edit on 16-7-2012 by sinohptik because: (no reason given)

It's not dissociation to hydrogen and oxygen either.

And yeah, at the heart of it, that's what it is - formation of cavities and bubbles in a liquid. It's just sort of an extreme version of it.

Also, cavitation wouldn't tend to be frequency dependent. To some extent it's related to viscosity, tensile strength and behavior in shear but there shouldn't be exact peaks at which you magically cavitate, much less cavitate to hydrogen. Generally what you get is a threshold frequency and some relationship between cavitation strength and frequency, but not a single exact peak where it happens.

Originally posted by Bedlam
It's not dissociation to hydrogen and oxygen either.

And yeah, at the heart of it, that's what it is - formation of cavities and bubbles in a liquid. It's just sort of an extreme version of it.

Also, cavitation wouldn't tend to be frequency dependent. To some extent it's related to viscosity, tensile strength and behavior in shear but there shouldn't be exact peaks at which you magically cavitate, much less cavitate to hydrogen. Generally what you get is a threshold frequency and some relationship between cavitation strength and frequency, but not a single exact peak where it happens.

Again, my point is that this is likely what is being observed and consequently, misunderstood. Not to say that cavitation does not still hold some mysteries, as all things do.

And yeah, its "sort of an extreme version" kind of like an atomic blast is "sort of an extreme version" of a party popper.

Did you miss where I said I feel Keely was a fraud? His reported behavior alone puts up red flags for me.

Originally posted by sinohptik
Did you miss where I said I feel Keely was a fraud? His reported behavior alone puts up red flags for me.

Must have. I thought you were claiming that cavitation was dissociation. My apologies.

Don't get me wrong. I think Keely was a consummate fraud. He's not just a so-so one like Greer. He was the fraud/hoax rockstar of his era. He set the pattern that so many of them follow to this day. You can learn a lot from Keely.

There's a Keely book we bought for the share library at work, it's the Dale Pond one. It's the usual pattern, lots of hokum, pretty diagrams, somewhere along the line they forgot the part where the process of non-pathological science generally involves some sort of experimentation and data collection. I mean, why bother actually setting up some sort of reasonably constructed experiment to verify your Universal Laws of Sound when you can just draw a neat chord chart and claim that it's proof? I mean if you state that you can mix gold and platinum to produce a room temperature superconductor, how hard could it be to actually, you know, try it? But it never seems to occur to them.

I mean, I suppose if Tesla and Cayce have said it's so, no point testing anything, eh?

reply to post by roguetechie

sounds like you found this info at keely.net www.keelynet.com...

A recent (1965) possible verification of the frequency Keely used to dissociate water into etheric force was related to me by a scientist when we were discussing certain aspects of free energy. He wishes to remain anonymous for obvious reasons, but his name is on file. I have no other verification of this experiment, however I believe it merits telling. The scientist, I shall call him Dr. X, was doing experiments with ultrasonic sound in a column of water. The object of the experiments was to devise a means of separating various densities of materials by injecting them into a column of water which was subjected to an ultrasonic standing wave vibration. The experimental setup is sketched in Figure 3-3 (for BBS considerations a description follows). A Barium Titanate ultrasonic transducer was fixed to the bottom of a quartz tube which was closed at the bottom and open at the top. Pure water was poured into the tube and the water column was "tuned" so that a standing wave was produced at 40,000 CPS (cycles per second). The transducer was powered by a 700 Watt power amplifier which was driven by an ultrasonic frequency generator. Because of the large amount of power put into the column of water a certain amount of evaporation took place at a constant rate when the transducer was energized. Therefore, to maintain a standing wave in the water column a feedback device caused the frequency to be raised as the water evaporated and the temperature changed. As a test, Dr. X decided to run through the experiment with only water in the tube to insure that a standing wave was maintained as the water evaporated and the frequency rose higher and higher. When the experiment was started everything worked beautifully. Dr. X took periodic readings of his instrumentation and was assured that the standing wave was being maintained. Suddenly, with no warning whatever the water disappeared from the open quartz tube. He looked up thinking to see the water splashed on the ceiling when to his amazement a clean hole went right through the ceiling. The hole was the same size as the inside of the quartz tube. Further investigation showed the hole continued on through the roof also! Dr. X checked his notebook and found the last frequency entry to be 41,300 CPS. It was shortly after this that the water disappeared. Because of the time interval between the last reading and the disappearing water, the frequency sent to the transducer was higher than the last reading and Dr. X said it could well have been very close to 42,800 CPS, the Keely dissociation frequency. (11)

I have been seeing what I can find, lots of free energy forums quote it but haven't found one to claim a working devise, will let you know

reply to post by Bedlam

Keely I first read about this weekend but hidden power in water I have always believed in, so many things about water are not understood.
Resonant frequencies and their power has always intrigued me.
Some movie had a line about water burning at high temperatures and I did a patent search finding that oil companies have a water gas patent for equipment to clean oil wells, ( a heated box using a catalyst that does separate water to h2 & o then burns it to get high temperature steam).
I was thinking maybe that temperature equates to a frequency maybe a vibration, (sound) or several put together.
Recently there was a dentist here in FL using microwaves to disassociate water, he discovered it while looking to cure his leukemia, leukemia got him first.
I even go so far as to think JFK was killed because he wanted to use the water gas idea in the space program.
Age of Aquarius should have something to do with water and wouldn't it be neat if we were all freed by free energy from water.
So I asked for opinions and ideas about Keely and his work hoping to save some time, not to get anyone angry or upset.
Just looking for answers and ideas, Don

Actually the keely water disassociation myth is repeated in the keely biography by his biggest investor.... Can't remember her name now but yeah the water disassociation thing is part and parcel to keely's whole legend. IF it can be proven or disproven conclusively then I think everything else can be as well.

Truthfully I have also latched onto this disassociation thing because if it were somehow magically true it could be immensely useful in various fields. Between that and the fact that it should in theory be easy to test in a number of configurations for a reasonable budget I think it's the perfect experiment to prove or disprove keely's ideas with. Well that and lets face it if you really can make water violently disassociate like that with some sort of standing wave it would be pretty distinctive on video. Between those three reasons I have always thought it was the perfect way to hang or vindicate the work of Keely by an interested party.

I currently don't have the budget or the faith to waste my time and money proving it but judging from the overwhelming and vehement response I've gotten from Keely believers for questioning the "great man" someone out there should have the vested interest and resources to prove us all wrong and show us some real live water disassociation.

I have even went so far as to find out you could modify an off the shelf ultrasonic humidifier to get the frequencies you are looking for. I have also found out that a dr puharich was also claiming to disassociate water into hydrogen and oxygen using pulsed ac in a specially shaped chamber at 600 cycles a second.... which is apparently a subharmonic of the famed keely frequency. I've also found another source stating that a certain type of metal forming using water and electrical pulses is supposedly 156% efficient....

All in all I'd really love to see someone put in the work to experiment and try to either bust or prove the keely myth of water disassociation. ON the plus side if you can confirm it you've probably set yourself up for life just based on the industrial applications you could patent. And if you fail well then at least you'll know something you didn't at the start of the day.

water spark plug research and dr x story
site saying metal forming with water and electrical current is better than 100% efficient
link to Dr puharich information about 600 cycle ac water disassociation

Originally posted by donlashway
reply to post by Bedlam

 

Keely I first read about this weekend but hidden power in water I have always believed in, so many things about water are not understood.
Resonant frequencies and their power has always intrigued me.

Yeah....but....43khz isn't going to resonate anything with water. Especially 43khz of sound. Here's a thing to consider when you think about resonances - the resonances are going to occur when the wavelength of your input stimulus more or less matches some mechanical feature of the object. When you push someone on a swing, the pushes are most effective when they're timed to match the swing frequency of the pendulum formed by the swing. So you push when the swing naturally comes back to the top of its swing - that works best.

If my kid's in a swing, and I grab the swing and start shaking it back and forth as fast as I can manage, it won't go very far. It might torque back and forth and wobble but it's not going to swing properly. That's because I have a bad mismatch between a fast shake (short wavelength) and the mechanical feature of the swing's rope length/pendulum frequency (long wavelength).

Resonance also doesn't work well when there's a lot of damping in the system. That turns the motion into heat. It's a low-q system. There might actually BE a resonance in there, but you won't notice it because no energy is stored, it's all dissipated. For example, if you tap a crystal wine glass with a spoon it rings - ping! that's a form of resonance - glass is elastic and crystal's got high q mechanically. That's also why it's brittle.

If I have a lead goblet, tapping it won't give me a ping, I'll get a clunk. Lead is dissipative. The material flexes but turns the flexure into heat (very small) so no ping. It's one reason you don't make lead violins.

So take water. Water's got the usual quantum-mechanical type resonances in the IR and microwave spectra, wagging, rocking, scissoring etc. But the lengths of these features is about the length of a hydrogen bond, around 200 picometers. The wavelength of 43khz sound in water is something like 3cm offhand. ORDERS of magnitude difference.

Some movie had a line about water burning at high temperatures and I did a patent search finding that oil companies have a water gas patent for equipment to clean oil wells, ( a heated box using a catalyst that does separate water to h2 & o then burns it to get high temperature steam).

Hydrogen and oxygen do burn pretty hot. Water can't burn because it's sort of at the bottom of exothermy. It's burnt.

I doubt you found a catalyst for disassociating water. Catalysts are used to overcome activation energy for reactions - generally exothermic ones, although most catalysts will drive reactions both ways to some extent, the exothermic direction's going to vastly predominate unless you apply an awful lot of energy. In the case of water, it's burnt. There's no activation potential to overcome. If you put enough heat into water to dissociate it with the help of a catalyst, you might as well just heat it to steam in the first place.

There are catalysts to crack H2O2 into steam and oxygen, could that be what you saw?

I was thinking maybe that temperature equates to a frequency maybe a vibration, (sound) or several put together.
Recently there was a dentist here in FL using microwaves to disassociate water, he discovered it while looking to cure his leukemia, leukemia got him first.

Kanzias. He found that RF would dissociate water, if it's full of ionic contaminants. It wasn't microwaves. He was using a stock diathermy machine with decorative addons to hide what he was using. Heck, IIRC he wasn't even using radio, it was h-field.

I even go so far as to think JFK was killed because he wanted to use the water gas idea in the space program.
Age of Aquarius should have something to do with water and wouldn't it be neat if we were all freed by free energy from water.

Well, all the free energy from water has been freed. You burn hydrogen and oxygen to get there. You got heat and light. The ashes of what's left are what we call water. It's sort of like saying - we had this neat campfire where we burned this wood. It got really hot. So I'd like to turn the ashes and charcoal back into logs and burn it again so we can get free campfire energy. That's ok, but converting it back to wood is gonna take more energy than you'll get back when you burn it the second time.

So I asked for opinions and ideas about Keely and his work hoping to save some time, not to get anyone angry or upset.
Just looking for answers and ideas, Don

Not angry or upset. I find Keely to be like P T Barnum - there's a lot you can learn from him outside of the "secrets of chords".

reply to post by roguetechie



Ok let me explain what you are seeing in that video. There is a box with three piezoelectric transducers mounted in it and three frequency's are being feed to the unit. The combined effect of this is causing a compass needle to rotate mounted on a wire ie he is using sound to cause rotation which is obviously the basis for the construction for a motor which would use sound.

As to the disintegration I think it best if I quote Keely himself:

"In the disintegration of water the instrument is set on thirds, sixths and ninths (harmonics) to get the best effects. These triple conditions are focalised on the neutral center of said instrument"

Ok so from the above you should clearly understand that not one but three frequency's are needed and that the sound waves should be focused in the center of a reaction chamber filled with water.

Now to discover what those three frequencies are would be similar to somebody guessing your pin code for your credit card.....this is why it is not as simple as you think.

So in other words even though keely is quoted as saying it takes one frequency this isn't true? is that your assertion? I believe that keely has listed all 3 frequencies you'd supposedly need to disassociate water

This paper is quite astounding in that it correlates with Keelys' claim that water can be progressively dissociated at 620, 630 and 12,000 cycles per second. These are on the molecular, atomic and etheric levels respectively.

This quote is taken directly from the keelynet document I linked in one of my previous posts....

It strikes me that you are trying to move the goal posts rather than just admit you can't or won't do a test to prove what you believe in. It literally took me less than 20 minutes to find the 3 frequencies that you assert are like trying to guess a pin number.

This is what mystifies me about Keely supporters. They have this belief that one man a hundred plus years ago developed a technology subset verging on the miraculous, But they refuse to even TRY to do the testing to prove or disprove what they believe in. Keely believers behave exactly the same as religious people do when questioned.

I thought this thread was a wonderful opportunity to see if Keely's techniques could be vindicated, but apparently I was mistaken. It seems that the believers are only interested in making proclamations from on high without anything concrete in the real world to back them up.

reply to post by roguetechie


Did Keely say it or did somebody say Keely said it. I have clearly shown you what the man said himself


Also if you have found the 3 frequencies needed why isn't the 43 khz frequency among them, add that and it makes four!

OR you could actually read the links I have provided.... which btw come from keely's semi official biographer and primary investor.

IT has the information you claim isn't available right in the links.

Also I'm unconvinced based on your say so alone that it's got to be 3 frequencies when it's reported in so many places differently.

Either way you are choosing to argue with me rather than just show me the money so to speak.

Keely himself is the one who said 43 khz as a standalone frequency could cause disassociation of water. this much I"m certain of. He also said that the other 3 tones would work ....

My real sticking point is that no one is actually willing to test it. They'll accept it as fact and act like it's gospel but they won't do anything about it.

Do you realize how powerful and useful violent disassociation of water could be? It could most likely do everything from drilling holes to running our cars and power plants once it was harnessed and controlled. It could literally be HUGE if someone were to prove this right!

Yet no one is even willing to give it a shot.

Stan Deo video with water: www.youtube.com...

Ottis T. Carr and Ralph Ring video: www.youtube.com...

Vicktor Schauberger videos: www.youtube.com...

All of these men have attained scientific similarities that Keeley discovered.

reply to post by RussianScientists


I certainly hope you don't believe any of that. Unfortunately I know you do.

reply to post by RussianScientists


That water video is over an hour long and I don't see anything skimming it. Show me something where this is working.

I just spent an hour of my life watching the stan Deyo vid.... how you think that has anything to do with keely is beyond me.

Again though i"ll ask can you show me water being disassociated at the frequencies keely specified?

It should in theory be a pretty simple experiment to run all you need is a quartz beaker you can fit the ultrasonic transducer in the bottom of some wire and etc. I want to see water disassociation not hear about how ralph ring and otis carr stumbled on something too but can't replicate it.

Originally posted by roguetechie
Keely himself is the one who said 43 khz as a standalone frequency could cause disassociation of water. this much I"m certain of. He also said that the other 3 tones would work ....

My real sticking point is that no one is actually willing to test it. They'll accept it as fact and act like it's gospel but they won't do anything about it.

Do you realize how powerful and useful violent disassociation of water could be? It could most likely do everything from drilling holes to running our cars and power plants once it was harnessed and controlled. It could literally be HUGE if someone were to prove this right!

Yet no one is even willing to give it a shot.

I have an ultrasonic mist making unit and it runs at 42khz so I already know what it will do, it will turn water into mist. If however you used the three frequencies it would probably cause the water to explode into a gas causing rapid increasing in volume.

The frequency rang needed to split water may be in the microwave range but it is totally possible as you can see from this vid