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Originally posted by Maxmars
What we need is literal factual history, and a press that prospers only in the dissemination of those actual facts. From thence we can proceed to flog one another over what was and wasn't proper,. moral, or just.
Originally posted by Polaris2
Well, the "clear cut" arguments concerning the Civil War is what I have a problem with. First, those who claim that slavery was not the biggest cause of the Civil War are simply re-writing history. I'm not saying that it was the only cause, but it was right there at the forefront. To say that it was not is to ignore the countless political compromises and all of the drama concerning new states joining the Union. You would also be ignoring the political parties disappearing and being created that were largely based on the issue of slavery. The Republican Party, for example. Second, the Civil War may have cemented the power of the federal government but to say that since the end of the Civil War the federal government has been in total control is nonsense. More federal control came as a result of the income tax, Senators becoming popularly elected, the federal reserve and the federal response during the Depression than came as a result of the Civil War. Of course, all of these things did not happen until the 1900s.
Finally, to those that quote Lincoln: for every quote to be found that "supports" slavery or otherwise slights slaves or former slaves one can be found that says the opposite. Its not clear cut concerning blacks when it comes to Lincoln.
Originally posted by Jakes51
reply to post by xstealth
Furthermore, if Lincoln was such a tyrant? Why were the majority of the Confederate leadership pardoned, and granted restoration of citizenship after the war? A tyrant would have executed the whole lot of them and anyone that looked like them. The country was in a state of emergency and drastic measures were taken. That is the crux of the matter. Personally, I thought he handled it well in response to the dire circumstances before him. Of course, only my opinion, and feel free to disagree if you so wish.
Finally, to those that quote Lincoln: for every quote to be found that "supports" slavery or otherwise slights slaves or former slaves one can be found that says the opposite. Its not clear cut concerning blacks when it comes to Lincoln.
In 1855, Lincoln wrote to Joshua Speed, a personal friend and slave owner in Kentucky: You know I dislike slavery; and you fully admit the abstract wrong of it. ... I also acknowledge your rights and my obligations, under the constitution, in regard to your slaves. I confess I hate to see the poor creatures hunted down, and caught, and carried back to their stripes, and unrewarded toils; but I bite my lip and keep quiet. In 1841 you and I had together a tedious low-water trip, on a Steam Boat from Louisville to St. Louis. You may remember, as I well do, that from Louisville to the mouth of the Ohio, there were, on board, ten or a dozen slaves, shackled together with irons. That sight was a continued torment to me; and I see something like it every time I touch the Ohio, or any other slave-border. It is hardly fair for you to assume, that I have no interest in a thing which has, and continually exercises, the power of making me miserable. You ought rather to appreciate how much the great body of the Northern people do crucify their feelings, in order to maintain their loyalty to the Constitution and the Union. . . . How can any one who abhors the oppression of negroes, be in favor of degrading classes of white people? Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes." When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty— to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be take pure, and without the base alloy of hypocrisy
On August 22, 1862, just a few weeks before signing the Proclamation and after he had already discussed a draft of it with his cabinet in July, he wrote a letter in response to an editorial by Horace Greeley of the New York Tribune which had urged complete abolition. Lincoln differentiates between "my view of official duty" --that is, what he can do in his official capacity as President--and his personal views. Officially he must save the Union above all else; personally he wanted to free all the slaves:
I would save the Union. I would save it the shortest way under the Constitution. The sooner the national authority can be restored; the nearer the Union will be "the Union as it was." If there be those who would not save the Union, unless they could at the same time save slavery, I do not agree with them. If there be those who would not save the Union unless they could at the same time destroy slavery, I do not agree with them. My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union. I shall do less whenever I shall believe what I am doing hurts the cause, and I shall do more whenever I shall believe doing more will help the cause. I shall try to correct errors when shown to be errors; and I shall adopt new views so fast as they shall appear to be true views.
I have here stated my purpose according to my view of official duty; and I intend no modification of my oft-expressed personal wish that all men everywhere could be free.
Originally posted by Castillo
This is one of my FAV memes ... "the Civil War wasn't about slavery."
Anytime someone repeats it they drop it with a reverential hush and bombshell like drama as though it was the first time it had been proffered, as opposed to simply being a tired old meme.
The Civil War was indeed about a variety of issues - the Kansas-Nebraska Act, the Fugitive Recovery Laws, the Walker Tariff - all of which were directly related to slavery!
Originally posted by captaintyinknots
Originally posted by Castillo
This is one of my FAV memes ... "the Civil War wasn't about slavery."
Anytime someone repeats it they drop it with a reverential hush and bombshell like drama as though it was the first time it had been proffered, as opposed to simply being a tired old meme.
The Civil War was indeed about a variety of issues - the Kansas-Nebraska Act, the Fugitive Recovery Laws, the Walker Tariff - all of which were directly related to slavery!
The civil war happened for one reason, and one reason alone-to keep the south from seceding. All other factors, including slavery, lead to this. But had the south not tried to secede, the war doesnt happen.
So, no, the civil war was not about slavery.
Originally posted by Castillo
Originally posted by captaintyinknots
Originally posted by Castillo
This is one of my FAV memes ... "the Civil War wasn't about slavery."
Anytime someone repeats it they drop it with a reverential hush and bombshell like drama as though it was the first time it had been proffered, as opposed to simply being a tired old meme.
The Civil War was indeed about a variety of issues - the Kansas-Nebraska Act, the Fugitive Recovery Laws, the Walker Tariff - all of which were directly related to slavery!
The civil war happened for one reason, and one reason alone-to keep the south from seceding. All other factors, including slavery, lead to this. But had the south not tried to secede, the war doesnt happen.
So, no, the civil war was not about slavery.
the South tried to secede to protect the institution of slavery from an increasingly hostile north
So, yes, the Civil War was about slavery.
Originally posted by captaintyinknots
Originally posted by Castillo
Originally posted by captaintyinknots
Originally posted by Castillo
This is one of my FAV memes ... "the Civil War wasn't about slavery."
Anytime someone repeats it they drop it with a reverential hush and bombshell like drama as though it was the first time it had been proffered, as opposed to simply being a tired old meme.
The Civil War was indeed about a variety of issues - the Kansas-Nebraska Act, the Fugitive Recovery Laws, the Walker Tariff - all of which were directly related to slavery!
The civil war happened for one reason, and one reason alone-to keep the south from seceding. All other factors, including slavery, lead to this. But had the south not tried to secede, the war doesnt happen.
So, no, the civil war was not about slavery.
the South tried to secede to protect the institution of slavery from an increasingly hostile north
So, yes, the Civil War was about slavery.
Thats right along the lines of saying a cough causes a cold.
Lincoln himself said that he would gladly keep slavery if there was a way to do it without the south seceding. Slavery was a catalyst, not the cause.