The 450 million rounds of hollow point ammunition for DHS....my thoughts..nefarious....or not????

www.marketwatch.com... t-dhs-ice-2012-03-12


So the 450 million rounds of hollow points keep popping up in various threads and posts. Now, I want to make clear I am not supporting "martial law" or a "police state" or anything like that. I have just had some thoughts every time this comes up.

Reasons' it's not a big deal

1) While Hollow Points are restricted under the Geneva Convention for Soldiers and Military forces, they have not and to my knowledge, never been restricted for Police or, in most parts of the US, Civillians. And here is why.
While hollow points typically do cause much more devestating wounds then FMJ (full metal jackets) they also are much less likely to go through walls or even leave the targets body with much velocity left. So if a police officer (or homeowner) needs to fire at a suspect/intruder: then first they are much more likely to stop the threat with one hit, and second they are much LESS likely to hurt or kill someone behind the target or in a different room. So it is technically a "SAFER" round then FMJ (except for the target!). By the way, the rounds CAN go through the walls, but are less likely, depeding on the material.

2) 450 million sounds like a lot, in fact it IS a lot. But consider the following. Most officers carry a service firearm that carries 15 rounds in the magazine. And they ususally carry 2 additional magazines. So about 45 (will round up to 50 since that's how much are usually in the box0 or so rounds an officer. Now, I don't know how many federal officers fall under the umbrella of DHS. But let's say it's 10,000 between all agencies. Maybe someone can look that up.. I also don't know how often they practice, but lets say they go to the range once per week, and shoot one box of 50 rounds.

10,000 x 50+ 500,000 rounds fired per week. (and 500,000 just carrying while on duty).. Let's say 50 weeks per year (figure 2 weeks off on leave) that's 25 million rounds per year. Now, that comes out to 18 years of ammunition.

Well now, that IS alot. But with metal prices, especially copper (what most bullets are "jacketed" with, skyrocketing), that's a pretty good cost saving deal. Ammo has gotten pretty expensive.

And of course that's just 10,000 officers and also doesn't count for Basic type training, in which each person may fire several hundred rounds. Also SWAT type members (of which these departments LOVE) typically fire THOUSANDS of rounds in training, sometimes in just a few short weeks So now we are really cutting into it. I am guessing this is a 5 to 10 year supply of ammo based on the above numbers. Of course it REALLY depends on, how many officers? And how often they shoot? Does anyone know this info....

Now Reason's this maybe nefarious....

18 years worth of ammo....REALLY!!!! For Homeland Security!!!!! I started this thread with the thought..."not that big a deal" but then had to rewrite some of it, because...while training and equipping DOES take ALOT of ammo, when I started cranking the numbers......it started to sound more nefarious....I try to be practical and look for the obvious rather then the conspiratorial, but that is alot of ammuniction for what is essentially, "internal security". Got to rethink this some..........

So weigh in....and if anyone knows the number of armed agents/officers and their training regimine, please post.

Your right the number sounds high and sensational but it's really not that much. There are something like 300 million guns in the hands of citizens, we just don't buy all our ammo in bulk. In many states you can buy any gun the police have access to yourself, just not automatic. Not sure we have much to worry about.

if i remember this correctly its the maximum that the DHS can get over a 5 year period from their supplier and at a fixed price and as you said copper prices are rising so for the next 5 years the DHS will be able to buy upto 90 million rounds a year at a fixed price so if copper prices go mental the DHS could be saving the goverment money since they are buying ammo at lets say 20c a bullet but the copper price alone would make it at least 50c a bullet which would lead people to moan at the goverment about not looking ahead on ammo purchases

having worked in local goverment here in the uk its not uncommon to do open ended orders but with a fixed price and sometimes its worked out that the supplier has taken a hefty cost hit rather than the tax payer

Originally posted by Maxatoria
if i remember this correctly its the maximum that the DHS can get over a 5 year period from their supplier and at a fixed price and as you said copper prices are rising so for the next 5 years the DHS will be able to buy upto 90 million rounds a year at a fixed price so if copper prices go mental the DHS could be saving the goverment money since they are buying ammo at lets say 20c a bullet but the copper price alone would make it at least 50c a bullet which would lead people to moan at the goverment about not looking ahead on ammo purchases

having worked in local goverment here in the uk its not uncommon to do open ended orders but with a fixed price and sometimes its worked out that the supplier has taken a hefty cost hit rather than the tax payer

This is correct they are not buying that many rounds they simply have a deal for that amount at a fixed price over a period of time. However that of couse sounds way to dull and ruins lots FEMA camp wishes.

As mentioned above, this is the MAXIMUM order amount, and not what was necessarily requested. I have not seen any evidence that this is what HAS been ordered.

But, the idea that a government department has simply thought ahead to stock up in case of supply limitations in the future is nonsense. No government department thinks that far ahead, no matter how much money they can save in the process. When was the last time you heard of a government department being sensible with their money?

It doesn't happen like that, and anyone who thinks the DHS is just making a saving is deluding themselves.

I would suggest that this is just a blip on wider radar picture. Regardless of this purchase (or the agreement of purchase) all sensible people know that we are heading into a period of incredible social and political unrest.

Forget the FEMA camp nonsense (are they REALLY going to try to imprison tens of millions of people? No), just pay attention to what's happening in your community and, to a lesser extent, around the world. Greece is expected to collapse this summer, with several other European nations likely to follow. This alone WILL cause a collapse in the markets, and those megalithic banksters already eating their own business to continue their gambling will sink over night.

If you bank with any of those large corporate banks, you'd better start thinking about what you're going to do when they implode and the ATM's and your cards cease to function.

You know I have a good friend who works at a well known gun store. One time about 2 months ago we were casually talking and he had something interesting to say. We were discussing whether there would be a shortage of firearms due to potential bills or legislations coming up on the radar. He said "no. but if I were you it's not the guns you need to worry but ammo. There will be a shortage of it soon."

I didn't think much about it at the time and therefore didn't look too much into it or ask any followup questions regarding it. I will ask him later today when he gets off work.

Maybe there is a shortage of ammunition production due to metal costs. maybe the DHS didn't want to be caught flat footed when the shortage hits full force and wanted to have plenty ahead of time.

reply to post by detachedindividual


while you may think that the goverment doesnt think that far ahead there will be some poor sod in the purchasing department of the agency who's job is to try and work out the future ordering of every last item down to the paper clip and probably could show you a powerpoint presentation about nearly everything the DHS orders and even why the computer says 'yes'

Originally posted by SrWingCommander
10,000 x 50+ 500,000 rounds fired per week. (and 500,000 just carrying while on duty).. Let's say 50 weeks per year (figure 2 weeks off on leave) that's 25 million rounds per year. Now, that comes out to 18 years of ammunition.

I think this number is way too high. When I was a cop, we were lucky to go to the range annually. (We also went on our own time with our own ammo, but that's what you're talking about here, right?) And when we did go to the range, we were given cheaper FMJ to practice and qualify with, rather than JHP. Just my $0.02.

The 50 rounds is accurate though for daily carry. We carried 3 magazines of 15, plus 1 in the chamber. That left 4 in the box.

reply to post by AnonymousCitizen


The feds and other departments do it differently. My department gives you 150 rounds any Monday you want to show up at the range. It is the exact same as the carry ammo. It helps to ensure that you are use to exactly what you are using during a force incident.

reply to post by SrWingCommander


You really need to know how often the people fire their weapons. If you can't find out about that rate for DHS, call your local police department.

Hint: The sure as Hell dont go to the range once a week. So you blew your theory there and in having no idea about how many people in DHS tote guns. In other words, a worthless thread.

On the other hand it's enough ammo to supply 45,000 officers with 1,000 rounds each.
I find this order for JHP ammo in this quantity very suspect.
It sounds like war time production to me.
Take it any way you want.

reply to post by Aliensun


My locals.typically do shoot once a week....but I know it varies widely.....hence the discussion here.

Originally posted by SrWingCommander
reply to post by Aliensun

 

My locals.typically do shoot once a week....but I know it varies widely.....hence the discussion here.

I doubt that is the case for individual officers. More than likely they are in rotation.

If you do an internet search, you will find that the standard police requirement is only twice a year. Perhaps that is being upped some places. And some places allow the officers to shoot as often as they wish.

I live within hearing distance of a local federal prison, I never hear them shooting every week.

reply to post by SrWingCommander


Trouble is there is about 300 million people in the US that don't have hollow points, and they'd still have rounds left if they missed us...People might want to start stepping their game up if they expect to stop any more attempts to round us up.

450 million rounds for practice? Sorry, I'm just not naive enough to fall for that one.

Originally posted by VeritasAequitas
reply to post by SrWingCommander

 

Trouble is there is about 300 million people in the US that don't have hollow points, and they'd still have rounds left if they missed us...People might want to start stepping their game up if they expect to stop any more attempts to round us up.

I don't have any raw numbers, but I would tell you that I don't know a single handgun owner that doesn't have hollow points. In fact when you buy a pistol, they are pretty much suggested. 1) they pretty much assure the threat isn't going to get back up, 2) they are less likely to exit the target or go through objects behind the target and hurt someone else.

Also, keep in mind that of the multiple millions of rounds manufactured for WW-II many can still be found and are, yes, very desirable.Ii understand that we were fighting a war of survival back then, but isn't that what we've been told about the current ones?

My 2 cents - you would NOT use Hollow point ammo for target practice - you would use cheaper Regular Ammo....

I did Not see what ammo this is - 22, 9mil, 45???

they're 40 cals (the standard police size iirc) and perhaps at that price point its cheaper to use hollow points than other rounds but we'd need to see the actual contract which aint ever gonna happen