The Illuminati do evil so it means evil does not exist?

I think it's safe to say the illuminati want to corrupt humanity. Trying to make the youth just think about sex, drugs, and to live a pure materialistic lifestyle. A good portion of humanity doesn't have all the things we have like a place to stay, a computer to use, food to eat, etc. All these fake wars and trying to instill fear in us and other things. We can go on and on about how many things are wrong with the world.

If what we call the "illuminati" dont care about doing evil, is it safe to say evil and good dont exist? Another thing to point out is that "they" are probably smarter than the rest of us..So I'm guessing they don't believe in a God or in karma or anything that would make them avoid bad things and do good. Would this mean that evil and good are pure illusions to control humans? Like there are no consequences for stealling, killing, etc. Neither in this life nor in the after life. So if they dont care why should we? I'm not saying that we should start hurting people or stop helping poor people or anything, what I'm saying is that we shouldent fear any punishments that a God or karma would give us if we do something "bad" because the illuminati dont seem to give a fury rabbit's tail about hurting/corrupting humans.

Originally posted by 0thetrooth0
I think it's safe to say the illuminati want to corrupt humanity.

Nope. Not a safe assumption at all.

In fact, there are two fundamental flaws with that statement:

1. That the Illuminati were evil. That's a lie that you believe because history is written by the victors. The Bavarian Illuminati (the only group to ever call themselves Illuminati) was an enlightenment era collection of men who were anti-tyrant and anti-Pope. They were proto-anarchists who believed that man should govern himself and that we had no need for Kings to rule us or the Catholic Church to tell us how to worship God. They were defeated in 1785, and, of course, the Catholic Church is still alive and strong, thus painting the Illuminati as "evil".
2. That there's still an Illuminati today. There isn't. There may be, and probably are, shadow organizations pulling the strings and making things happen in the world. The CFR, the Trilateral Commission, the Bohemian Grovers, etc. But none of those has anything to do with the actual Illuminati, and it cheapens your argument to make that mistake.

Perhaps they are privy to information we are not and have a different/greater understanding of good and evil right and wrong. We slaughter animals for food maybe in a sense we are but animals to them, beasts if you like hence the reason they are set on evolving seperately from the bulk of mankind.

As i am led to belive at the top are the real elites the first and wealthiest of the families whos roots run deep in history which i wont elaborate on as the forums are full of info on this. Below them are the bilderbergs who control goverments at a federal level for the states and at an mp level in britain, below them are the freemasons who belive it or not, whether they know it or not are tasked with taking over at a local council level. The freemasons are the footsoldiers for the elite.

Heres an interview from edge media hosted by theo chalmers on the Lisbon treaty which goes into depth on some of these groups which i found very informative about the modern day practises of them.

David Knoakes on the EU



Interesting point though and im looking forward to other views so im going to flag it.

reply to post by JoshNorton


By "illuminati" i was refering to the elites of today not the illuminati of the past. I apologize.

Originally posted by 0thetrooth0
I think it's safe to say the illuminati want to corrupt humanity. Trying to make the youth just think about sex, drugs, and to live a pure materialistic lifestyle. A good portion of humanity doesn't have all the things we have like a place to stay, a computer to use, food to eat, etc. All these fake wars and trying to instill fear in us and other things. We can go on and on about how many things are wrong with the world.

If what we call the "illuminati" dont care about doing evil, is it safe to say evil and good dont exist? Another thing to point out is that "they" are probably smarter than the rest of us..So I'm guessing they don't believe in a God or in karma or anything that would make them avoid bad things and do good. Would this mean that evil and good are pure illusions to control humans? Like there are no consequences for stealling, killing, etc. Neither in this life nor in the after life. So if they dont care why should we? I'm not saying that we should start hurting people or stop helping poor people or anything, what I'm saying is that we shouldent fear any punishments that a God or karma would give us if we do something "bad" because the illuminati dont seem to give a fury rabbit's tail about hurting/corrupting humans.

I find it interesting that you make the assumption that good and evil don't exist and in the same paragraph adhere to objective moral standards and say, "I'm not saying we should start hurting people or stop helping poor people." Those two concepts cannot co-exist. If there is no good and evil and there really are no consequences to our actions in any way, either here in the now, or in the life to come as some believe, then any meaning, purpose, value, goodness, etc prescribed to humanity are mere delusions of the mind.

I think there is still an Illuminati.

It has just become a condensed circle upon which these other groups receive their direction from.

I also think a lot of these groups realize the gig is up. Remember Zbignew Brzezinski? That guys a giant douche, and he admitted we're awakening. He doesn't like it www.youtube.com...

He also thinks killing people is preferable to controlling them, said so himself. He's pretty much your enemy, your evil incarnate.

Anyway, I believe the Hidden Hand info. Remember that guy?

For those that don't remember, he's been a National Security Advisor here. Hmmm... Yeah, not good.

reply to post by fourthmeal


Why did you say not good? By Hidden Hand do you mean that guy that claimed to be in the illuminati and said they are actually the good guys and that the god of this world is not the true god and stuff. The guy may be right I dont know. What I do know is that the elites seem to have an agenda to distract humans from important issues, corrupt us with tv, music and other things, confuse us, make us live in fear, etc.

What I'm trying to figure out is.. if the illuminati are doing all these bad things it means that they believe/know there are no repercussions to their actions, like theres no god or karma. So if they are the smart/enlightened humans we should take that as a cue that good and evil dont exist, and to follow the live life to the fullest philosophy .. I think..

reply to post by 0thetrooth0


Yeah exactly, THAT guy.

Referring to Hidden Hand - I don't know if he's right either, but I have a feeling that, judging by how fast the responses were coming back when questions were asked, that he either REALLY knew his stuff and was genuine, or he was REALLY good at bluffing and he took no time at all in responding with partially truthful facts while inserting crazy b.s.. I say that because well after he left the thread, people went back and fact-checked the things that could be, and I think that checked out as good as one could hope in a thread full of conspiracy. But this guy really laid it out there, much like Svali.

By "not good", I was talking about Zbignew. That guy has been in the ear of quite a few Presidents, and in control of important information for years, and his personal views (as proven through his "closed door" talks when people sneak in and video or audio record him) are atrocious and dangerous to mankind (except the Elite of course.) So this guy is "not good".

I don't wish to derail your thread, but I guess I'd like to point out that according to what I've researched, at the very top crust of what is the "Ruling families", they believe they are serving the greater good by being the bad. At the very, very center of the onion that makes up these layers of what this system is, they believe that to the core. Further out, they believe they are entitled or better than the masses, and further out still they are just following orders because it helps them. Also there's a lot to be said about the "Occult Economy" that David Wilcock talked about. That guy has a lot of ideas and it is likely that most of it is wrong, but his research into this monetary thing called the Occult Economy is solid as a rock, with lots of corroboration from other sources and evidence. At least as much as can be shown without being shot in the head for exposing them. At the lower levels where a few Billion bucks in an account may serve as a great excuse to do someone's bidding, it makes sense. Also at lower levels we have blackmail, extortion, and forms of fraud like money laundering, all which power this behemoth. At the higher levels, where they realize they already have all the wealth they could ever want, it is about POWER. And higher still, back to the center of the "onion" as I like to refer to it, we have a small group of people that seem to believe we need this negativity. The top of the pyramid, as it were. They "see all", know all.

To say it is complicated and complex is a huge understatement. However, the Hidden Hand guy really clears up a lot of it in a way that at least resonated to me.

To sum it up, at least my view of it:

At the very inside layer, they view the Service to Self path (negative polarity) as their path, but they also claim to know that the Service to Others path is viable. The Earth serves as a "school" for the soul to learn Duality. Choices, decisions, repercussions, etc. They ABSOLUTELY believe in Karma at this inner level. But remember, they are aligned STS, so Karma for them is something that will impact them in the next existence, not this one. They believe that they are giving a great sacrifice by doing this, and that the humanity that DOES choose STO or the positive polarity can only do so after recognizing really what the other path is. And since they literally create the most powerful STS path possible, the catalyst needed for the soul to make a decision is their responsibility. So they serve in this game, this school, as the "bad guy" so that you may choose the "good", if you decide to. They mention that the harvest for the negative path is actually very difficult, because the core nature of creation is not STO, in the end. But in this dimension, the Duality is almost 50/50.

Now, outside this very inside level of the onion, things are very different. But that's for another post I suppose.

reply to post by fourthmeal


Personally, I think HH is disinfo agent/not credible. He does sound legit and smart. He says some interesting things like "religion if not created, heavily influenced by men"
He mentions how the god of this world is not the true god. Where is the evidence to back to up. It's hard enough to believe in a god, but 2 gods..He sounds like a Gnostic.

Interesting..

Originally posted by JoshNorton

Originally posted by 0thetrooth0
I think it's safe to say the illuminati want to corrupt humanity.

Nope. Not a safe assumption at all.

In fact, there are two fundamental flaws with that statement:

1. That the Illuminati were evil. That's a lie that you believe because history is written by the victors. The Bavarian Illuminati (the only group to ever call themselves Illuminati) was an enlightenment era collection of men who were anti-tyrant and anti-Pope. They were proto-anarchists who believed that man should govern himself and that we had no need for Kings to rule us or the Catholic Church to tell us how to worship God. They were defeated in 1785, and, of course, the Catholic Church is still alive and strong, thus painting the Illuminati as "evil".
2. That there's still an Illuminati today. There isn't. There may be, and probably are, shadow organizations pulling the strings and making things happen in the world. The CFR, the Trilateral Commission, the Bohemian Grovers, etc. But none of those has anything to do with the actual Illuminati, and it cheapens your argument to make that mistake.

What he meant is that the illuminati is still in existence. And I too agree. THEY ARE!
However... what they do is based on gangs. Each flag that represents a nation has an army/gang.
They want to thwart the tyranny that may come about if such gangs do actually take control.
Be that as it may... we are well to rely on the path that Freemason has set for us. Therein found is the method of surviving the whole agenda of corruption and salvery. Yay!

Originally posted by 0thetrooth0
reply to post by fourthmeal

 

Personally, I think HH is disinfo agent/not credible. He does sound legit and smart. He says some interesting things like "religion if not created, heavily influenced by men"
He mentions how the god of this world is not the true god. Where is the evidence to back to up. It's hard enough to believe in a god, but 2 gods..He sounds like a Gnostic.

Interesting..

I think what he means is that some religions view as God is really Yahweh or whatever you want to call it, not The Creator.

Like, maybe A creator, but not The.

Which is a tough subject. To me, it isn't really imporant.


And yes, it could definitely be non-credible. However it would be the closest view I think. Ever read the Law of One? That's a trip.

In that, there's some similar explanations.

reply to post by 0thetrooth0

Is there a way that you can connect the modern instant gratification syndrome or what some call "cultivation theory" via agenda setting and gatekeepers is tied to anything that is or was known as the Illuminati?

The existence of good and evil doesn't hinge on the possible existence of an extinct group. Are you a moral relativist? Or are you saying that the Illuminati espoused moral relativism? You seem to be hinging morality and ethics upon the existence and beliefs of a group...that seems incredibly wrong.

I think it's safe to say the illuminati want to corrupt humanity.

What an opening statement.


I opened this thread with enthusiasm, hoping to enter a debate about what is real and not real (actually a topic for an upcoming sermon I'm delivering).

I expected a statement of at least hypothesis....

I couldn't get past the first sentence. I will however debate the topic and my rebuttal of line 1 begins here.

"I think" - Fair enough. This is how everything starts. This is even how the universe and the illuminati started.

"it's safe to say" - Logical error. This phrase makes the OP thesis incumbent upon all readers by proposing they all believe what you think. It is definitely not safe to start a thread like this, especially in this forum.

"the illuminati" - Do not exist.

"want to corrupt" - A non-existent body by necessity cannot emote. Even if I give you that the illuminati exist the likelihood of them concluding anything they 'want' collectively is beyond comprehension.

"humanity" - Empirical fallacy. Humanity is already corrupt. Atheists, Theists, Agnostics, Antelapsarianists... you would be hard pressed to find anyone that says humanity isn't already corrupt.

Originally posted by 0thetrooth0
I think it's safe to say the illuminati want to corrupt humanity. Trying to make the youth just think about sex, drugs, and to live a pure materialistic lifestyle. A good portion of humanity doesn't have all the things we have like a place to stay, a computer to use, food to eat, etc. All these fake wars and trying to instill fear in us and other things. We can go on and on about how many things are wrong with the world.

If what we call the "illuminati" dont care about doing evil, is it safe to say evil and good dont exist? Another thing to point out is that "they" are probably smarter than the rest of us..So I'm guessing they don't believe in a God or in karma or anything that would make them avoid bad things and do good. Would this mean that evil and good are pure illusions to control humans? Like there are no consequences for stealling, killing, etc. Neither in this life nor in the after life. So if they dont care why should we? I'm not saying that we should start hurting people or stop helping poor people or anything, what I'm saying is that we shouldent fear any punishments that a God or karma would give us if we do something "bad" because the illuminati dont seem to give a fury rabbit's tail about hurting/corrupting humans.

Good job. You've found the uttermost reaches of being incorrect with a pathetic can't beat 'em join 'em analysis.

We were all given fair warning about the elite. And we were told exactly who they are and you have it all wrong. Because you failed to be interested enough to find the truth. That being:

They are beyond evil. They are," The wicked ". Satan is thier God and they hate and are at war with The Heavenly Father ! It isn't at all that they don't believe in our Heavenly Father Creator God. They don't want you to believe it. So that you fall into the exact trap you just described.

So take evereything out of your head and turn it right side up.

Or continue in this way of brainstorming and see where you and I mean, you personally end up.

reply to post by randyvs

Where do you get your information that "Satan is thier (sic) God and they hate and are at war with The Heavenly Father !"

Well they do practice in the occult and have a different opinion of Christ and "God" and other major biblical events which to some of the mainstream believers could be percieved as "devil worshipping" and the bringers of the antichrist i suppose.

The question i would ask is, if the masons are equally sure of their beliefs why must they be so secretive about it?

Maybe it has something to do with Catholicism and the centuries old web of lies laid before them.

And apparently its only those at the top with the capacity to comprehend the truth that will be privy to the secrets, everything else is just indoctrination.

Maybe if you exercise like a good little boy ull be able to scramble your way up them stairs and see for yourself one day.

Originally posted by Zecharia
Well they do practice in the occult and have a different opinion of Christ and "God" and other major biblical events which to some of the mainstream believers could be percieved as "devil worshipping" and the bringers of the antichrist i suppose.

The question i would ask is, if the masons are equally sure of their beliefs why must they be so secretive about it?

Maybe it has something to do with Catholicism and the centuries old web of lies laid before them.

And apparently its only those at the top with the capacity to comprehend the truth that will be privy to the secrets, everything else is just indoctrination.

Maybe if you exercise like a good little boy ull be able to scramble your way up them stairs and see for yourself one day.

That's a pretty big mischaracterization. I am a Mason and I will proclaim my beliefs to anyone who cares to listen.

I believe in God.

I believe God created everything and is present in everything.

I believe in the human soul.

I believe our spirit survives physical death.

I believe in 'mysticism'; IE that God defies the physical and temporal senses and is revealed personally and experiential way to people that seek that experience earnestly.

I believe that in the end there are no secrets. I believe everything we've done in this life is revealed at death and the hardest truth we will ever face is how we've hurt others.

I believe in the Great Commandment given by Christ:

“A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another."

I believe all people are created equal. I believe in liberty.

I believe that everyone on ATS is entitled to an opinion.

I believe some of the opinions are wrong.

I do NOT believe that a physical or spiritual entity can 'take over' a person's life without the person's consent.

I do not, however, speak for all masons.

I don't believe there is a "mainstream".

I don't believe in stereotypes or generalizations.

I do not believe in a global elite, an NWO, an 'illuminati', Satan, hell and a long list of other crap.

I do not believe that ANY group or ANY person has the ability or the right to tell another what to believe.


I believe the ultimate irony of Freemasonry is that if there were no "secrets" it would have died shortly after it's creation and there would have never been a "Secret Societies" forum. The fact that there is so much mystery is the reason so many people join.

reply to post by Zecharia


A question -

Are you saying masons are secretive because of a rivalry of Catholicism, or that we are in cahoots with Catholicism?

I don't think we could be in cahoots with a church that condemns us and forbids its members to join us.


DISCLAIMER:

I apologize in advance to any Catholics. My opinions are my own and do NOT represent Freemasonry.

I think the vast worldwide majority of Catholics are good people and have good motives. I also admit that my knowledge of Catholicism is limited and narrow. I don't even think I knew what "Catholic" meant until I looked it up on Wikipedia sometime in the last year.

In my opinion, though, Catholicism has done a great disservice to Christianity. I can only find one reference included in the New Testament (of dubious authorship) that purports to grant temporal authority to one "church" or group.

When a group holds authority over a large group of people, and that authority is claimed to be exclusive, it feels threatened by any other group that denies that authority. I don't think the modern Catholic church would kill or torture anyone for not following it's beliefs, but I believe it has happened in the past and that it has happened to masons exactly BECAUSE they were masons.

reply to post by Zecharia

There are no practices within in Freemasonry that can be rationally seen as "Satanic". Freemasonry has no opinion of Christ, with exception of the York Rite which within the Knights Templar require its members to be Christian.

We are a private organization which secrecy and privacy stems from tradition and something I support.

A question - Are you saying masons are secretive because of a rivalry of Catholicism, or that we are in cahoots with Catholicism?

I couldn't imagine Fremasonry and the vatican in cahoots, i was merely hinting that they were the reason for the need to be secretive because of their alternative beliefs.

Question - Do you really not believe there is an elite group of people running things with plans for a new world order ?

There are no practices within in Freemasonry that can be rationally seen as "Satanic". Freemasonry has no opinion of Christ, with exception of the York Rite which within the Knights Templar require its members to be Christian.

To play devils advocate here [no pun intended] from an outsiders perspective i repectfully disagree. The oath itself could be PERCIEVED as a satanic ritual to name just one, although i dont see it that way some might, dont you agree?