The Beginning And Why It Doesn't Matter

Something that really amuses me about today's world, is that we are an infant race that has existed for less than a nickel's worth of the time Earth has been around. And we already think we know where it came from. But here's the hilarious part: everyone disagrees.

We have atheists saying this rock we live on was created by a spontaneous explosion, and we've got theists saying some almighty being came along and crafted a world for a race of subservient zombies to live on, threatening death to all who don't believe in it (despite mounting evidence that this "god" is actually a tyrannical drunk with an ego problem).

Me, I like the agnostic view. Agnostics go around saying, "Hey, I don't know how we got here. I don't even know how HERE got to be here. And I don't know where 'here' is going to be. All I know is, I got an appointment to keep and if I don't, my butt is fired." And they continue with their lives. Why? Because they are polite and responsible for the sake of the two. They don't need an invisible man or a scientist to tell them why they are here, and why they should behave. They know common decency doesn't rely upon beginning or end. I should mention that I'm not agnostic, but anyway...continuing.

Why does it matter where you came from? Is it really going to change how you live your life? Is it going to dictate whether you give a dollar to that bum on the street, or cut off that old lady on the freeway? Is it really going to determine whether you're a good person or a bad person? If that's the case, maybe you shouldn't be asking about god or the universe.

Maybe you should be asking about yourself.

Here's some stuff I pulled off of the net, in an attempt to put into perspective exactly how arrogant our assumptions in knowing the universe are:

Earth formed approximately 4.54 billion years ago by accretion from the solar nebula, and life appeared on its surface within one billion years.

Alright. So we have a starting point...and remember, Earth most likely did not form instantaneously after the legendary Big Bang.

Humans (known taxonomically as Homo sapiens,[3][4] Latin for "wise man" or "knowing man")[5] are the only living species in the Homo genus. Anatomically modern humans originated in Africa about 200,000 years ago, reaching full behavioral modernity around 50,000 years ago.[6]

Okay. So we, as Homo Sapiens, reasoning man, fully matured, have been around for about...1/100 of Earth's current existence. Great.

Christianity began as a Jewish sect in the mid-1st century.

And Christianity began less than 2,000 years ago. During a time, I might add, that we believed the earth was flat and the sun revolved around us. Okay.

The term atheism originated from the Greek ἄθεος (atheos), meaning "without god", used as a pejorative term applied to those thought to reject the gods worshipped by the larger society. With the spread of freethought, skeptical inquiry, and subsequent increase in criticism of religion, application of the term narrowed in scope. The first individuals to identify themselves using the word "atheist" lived in the 18th century.[9]

And atheism didn't start until...200 years or so ago. By the way, I pulled all of these quotes from Wikipedia...feel free to double check my work. I know it's quoted out of context, but I pasted the relevant data.

So what we have here is a religion that has existed for approximately 2,000 years...as compared to the existence of Homo Sapiens, which has existed for approximately 50,000...as compared to Earth, which has been around (according to the most fervent and zealous studies conducted by the top paid researchers in the world) for over 4 billion years.

So compared to 4 billion years, we expect to know everything about where everything came from in 2,000 years, and any questions we can't answer, we just respond to with, "Oh, we don't need to. God has it covered."

Same with atheists. They just started popping up, apparently...especially considering God's love for us includes earthquakes, volcanoes, tornadoes, rape, homicide, plague, famine, and duplicity rampant across the globe. Can't really say I blame them.

My point here is, the numbers are stacked against the odds of us knowing the first thing about where we really came from. Let's just admit we don't know, and go on living our lives...after all, if it takes a wise spirit from nowhere to convince you to be nice to your neighbor, you're really a sad, pathetic little person. That's the message I got out of watching Christmas Carol, anyway.

Just saying.

Wow...I literally spent about 5 seconds making an adjustment, and I refresh to find 4 stars waiting for me.

Fastest that's ever happened. Maybe I did something right for once.

I'm agnostic. Basically, I don't know but I'm willing to listen.

However, I believe knowing our origins is important. If we were created, then I need to reevaluate my thinking. Same with every other possibility.

Loved your premise. Well done.

reply to post by Starchild23



Well written and it got me pondering, so thank you

I am an atheist by the way

reply to post by Starchild23


well for starters they still teach religion in most schools and history going only back to egypt. so another generation is gonna believe in a upper god. this is gonna keep on going on for ages. so more zombies as you put it.

just like YOU these scientists also have a job, some different from others and even some that explore and find new discoveries in the cosmos, some who study our existence and try and move forward in our basic knowledge of the universe. you see my friend it is these people who contribute to society and give us the biggest picture we can imagine, they have giving us beauty in astounding details, even if what we know is so little at least we are lucky enough to have experienced these moments in life. i dont know about you OP but you sound like you need to get out and experience something different in your life, "oh just give up" attitude wont get you anywhere in life.

Originally posted by Starchild23
Wow...I literally spent about 5 seconds making an adjustment, and I refresh to find 4 stars waiting for me.

Fastest that's ever happened. Maybe I did something right for once.

Stars are important.

Not the ones you get here though. Well, maybe to you they are.

reply to post by Starchild23

Just how and why we're here, and are still here, in a vast vast universe which seems friendly towards our existence (or we wouldn't be here) is really an unfathomable and inscrutable mystery of the highest order.

Agnostic then, or some sort of mystic (experiencial) spiritual tradition which welcomes mystery, would be the best response to the reality of life as it is.

The atheist view OTOH, just seems to trap us into a materialist monist (matter alone is primary) "thingness", which runs counter to the qualia of our own unique personal experience, which is of a psycho-spiritual nature.

Well, this whole thread is really pointless.

You list a bunch of "facts" that aren't even facts to begin with. I can't believe people still believe in the Big Bang theory, or even consider the Earth is some odd billion years old, with our universe being 20 billion y/o. It's ridiculous. It's sad. Use common sense, for crying out loud. I mean, Wikipedia? Honestly? Wikipedia still has the Pharaoh Khufu as credited for the Great Pyramids. Hahaha

My point here is, the numbers are stacked against the odds of us knowing the first thing about where we really came from. Let's just admit we don't know, and go on living our lives...after all, if it takes a wise spirit from nowhere to convince you to be nice to your neighbor, you're really a sad, pathetic little person. That's the message I got out of watching Christmas Carol, anyway.

Your point is flawed because it's trying to tackle other major subjects all at once. The Bible states very clearly on how old the Earth is, and how it all began. Our entire universe had to have had three components existing at the SAME time - Time, Space, and Matter. One cannot exist without it. If you had Space and Matter, but no Time, where would you put it? The Bible answers this very clearly in 10 words - In the Beginning (time), God created the Heavens (space), and the Earth(matter).

I agree though, that it really doesn't matter. I can see through your whole message though. You really need to change your mode of thinking. Deny ignorance. You hate something and you don't even know why you hate it, or you have a very poor reason for it. I'm getting tired of explaining this over and over again, but I'll say it again anyways -

What's the point of Christianity? Man is full of sin. Destined for Hell. God doesn't like that. He came down in the Flesh and died for our sins. The whole world has been forgiven - you don't even have to believe in Him. Everyone would go to Heaven, unless they have 1 sin.. the one unforgivable sin - not believing in Christ and who he was.

Believe that with all your heart, and you will go to Heaven. That's it. No tricks. There's no fine print, no "and then tithe to your local church." No, just believing.

So does it matter where it all began? No, what matters is where we're going. Those of us who are "saved" are just trying to tell other people how we got there. By believing in Christ.

Jeez it's so simple..

Originally posted by Lionhearte
Well, this whole thread is really pointless.

You list a bunch of "facts" that aren't even facts to begin with. I can't believe people still believe in the Big Bang theory,

Every theory has a hard-swallow.

The hard-swallow in ordinary science is the big-bang. Notice that it’s the limit test for credulity. If you can believe that the entire universe sprang from nothing in a single instant for no reason, what would you resist as a hypothesis?

It’s the limit case for improbability as far as I can tell. Nevertheless, science says “give us one free miracle and we can then go from there and never ask the favor again”.

So apparently you get one free miracle in your system building.

I prefer to locate my miracle at the end.

the big bang theory is just that, a theory. it may or may not be accurate. i don't know which.
the 'god created us' theory doesn't really work for me. though again, it may or may not be accurate.
where you are 'at' is more important than where you're from, in my opinion. and i believe that the end is of greater concern than the beginning. but i can't say my point(s) of view are any more, or less, valid than those which differ. it's all grist for the mill in the final analysis.

reply to post by AlchemicalBinoculars


Oh, it was just an aside. I was a little happy that people agreed with e instead of shouting me down.

Otherwise, it was just like any other day. I strive to make each day different somehow, you see...and I keep hoping I can show people the light.

Alas, some days it cannot be.

Originally posted by Starchild23
reply to post by AlchemicalBinoculars

 

Oh, it was just an aside. I was a little happy that people agreed with e instead of shouting me down.

Otherwise, it was just like any other day. I strive to make each day different somehow, you see...and I keep hoping I can show people the light.

Alas, some days it cannot be.

Just for shiggs and gittles, what qualifies you as a "Light Shower" when you clearly demonstrate that you are in the Dark?

reply to post by AlchemicalBinoculars


Who said I was a "Light Shower"?

reply to post by Lionhearte


Now that I have a free moment, I'll respond to your amusing post.

You list a bunch of "facts" that aren't even facts to begin with.

All listed on Wikipedia, with citations to boot. Not facts? Try again. Oh, and prove they're not facts.

Your point is flawed because it's trying to tackle other major subjects all at once. The Bible states very clearly on how old the Earth is, and how it all began.

Oh, yes. A Christian. Well, tell me Mr. Know-It-All Christian, how is it that our geologists have used tried and proven methods to show that the Earth is well over the 6,000 years that your Bible claims it to be? Hmm? Did they lies to us?

And let me guess, the world really is flat.

I agree though, that it really doesn't matter. I can see through your whole message though. You really need to change your mode of thinking. Deny ignorance. You hate something and you don't even know why you hate it, or you have a very poor reason for it. I'm getting tired of explaining this over and over again, but I'll say it again anyways -

My mode of thinking says that we don't know nearly as much as we pretend to, which is twice as much as we'd like to. How is that not denying ignorance? The fact that everything here is a conspiracy proves my point.

Man is full of sin. Destined for Hell. God doesn't like that. He came down in the Flesh and died for our sins. The whole world has been forgiven - you don't even have to believe in Him. Everyone would go to Heaven, unless they have 1 sin.. the one unforgivable sin - not believing in Christ and who he was.

Believe that with all your heart, and you will go to Heaven. That's it. No tricks. There's no fine print, no "and then tithe to your local church." No, just believing.

Logically impossible. But that's not my point. My point is that you need to have a legend of a thousand year dead man to have a reason to be nice to people. That's a steaming pile of horse dung. And my other point is that we don't need to know WHERE we came from, or know where we're GOING, so much as HOW we get there.

So does it matter where it all began? No, what matters is where we're going. Those of us who are "saved" are just trying to tell other people how we got there. By believing in Christ.

Jeez it's so simple..

Your posts are the reason so many people are confused about the world right now. The things I could say to you people...

But no matter. You will find out...eventually. What's wrong with being nice for the sake of being nice?

I don't need any friggin' god to do that. And that's what makes me powerful in my own life.

Originally posted by Starchild23
reply to post by AlchemicalBinoculars

 

Who said I was a "Light Shower"?

You. Keep up.

"Otherwise, it was just like any other day. I strive to make each day different somehow, you see...and I keep hoping I can show people the light."

reply to post by AlchemicalBinoculars


And I am keeping people in the dark how?

Originally posted by Starchild23
reply to post by AlchemicalBinoculars

 

And I am keeping people in the dark how?

By falsely claiming you have the capacity to "show them the Light".

reply to post by AlchemicalBinoculars


reply to post by RoScoLaz


I want to address both of you.

First, Alchemical - Yes, that's why they're theories. The problem is, Evolution has MANY of these "hard-swallows". Ones that people don't even realize are there. For example, take this statement - "We know that a dog reproduces a dog, but in theory, given enough time, it could produce a new species." Stop. "Given enough time." You just left science, and entered into the realm of faith. Religion. Evolutionists by default believe that either Matter is eternal, or can create itself. Neither of which have been proven. Both of which are both in violation of the 2nd law of thermodynamics, of course.

Cosmic Evolution (Big Bang)? Requires faith, never been proven.
Chemical Evolution? Requires faith, never been proven.
Stellar and Planetary Evolution? Requires faith, never been proven.
Organic Evolution? Requires faith, never been proven.
Macro Evolution? Requires faith, never been proven.
Micro Evolution? An actual science, proven and cannot be refuted.

I mean, there's so many things that's taken by faith in Evolution.. they state that somehow matter came into existence (with time and space), and then it somehow came alive, then somehow learned how to reproduce, and somehow learned how to create something other than it's kind.. I mean, jeez. I say, "In the beginning, God.." and Evolutionists say, "In the beginning, Matter.."

That's why the "Nothing created Matter and we are living Matter" works for me. Explain how it works for you, over believing in 10 simple words - "In the Beginning (time), God created the Heavens(space) and the Earth (matter)."

Originally posted by Lionhearte
"We know that a dog reproduces a dog, but in theory, given enough time, it could produce a new species." Stop. "Given enough time." You just left science, and entered into the realm of faith. Religion. Evolutionists by default believe that either Matter is eternal, or can create itself. Neither of which have been proven. Both of which are both in violation of the 2nd law of thermodynamics, of course.

What?

I'm not comprehending what you're talking about. It doesn't seem to make much sense.

Originally posted by Lionhearte
I mean, there's so many things that's taken by faith in Evolution.. they state that somehow matter came into existence (with time and space), and then it somehow came alive, then somehow learned how to reproduce, and somehow learned how to create something other than it's kind.. I mean, jeez. I say, "In the beginning, God.." and Evolutionists say, "In the beginning, Matter.."

That's why the "Nothing created Matter and we are living Matter" works for me. Explain how it works for you, over believing in 10 simple words - "In the Beginning (time), God created the Heavens(space) and the Earth (matter)."

I didn't know the theory of evolution attempted to explain the origin of life. Is this what you are saying?

Do you truly believe that life doesn't evolve and adapt into different forms? That cavemen lived with dinosaurs and whatnot?

Originally posted by Starchild23
All listed on Wikipedia, with citations to boot. Not facts? Try again. Oh, and prove they're not facts.

I'd literally have to spend hours refuting as many lies that were thrown out by you. Not necessarily saying you were the one lying, but you are the one who believed them. See the last post I made as to why your belief requires a great deal more faith than you even realize. None of it has been proven, it's all just a religion.

Oh, yes. A Christian. Well, tell me Mr. Know-It-All Christian, how is it that our geologists have used tried and proven methods to show that the Earth is well over the 6,000 years that your Bible claims it to be? Hmm? Did they lies to us? And let me guess, the world really is flat.

Tried and proven methods? Do you even know how C14-Dating works?

Watch this video, at about an hour and 10 minutes in. He talks about C14.
video.google.com...

And who said anything about the Earth being flat? lol. No where in the Bible does it say this !

My mode of thinking says that we don't know nearly as much as we pretend to, which is twice as much as we'd like to. How is that not denying ignorance? The fact that everything here is a conspiracy proves my point.

What point? The only things that are conspiracies are made by those who call them such things. There's facts, and there's opinions. There's truth, and there's lies. It's simple. All we're doing here is trying to figure out which is which.

Logically impossible. But that's not my point. My point is that you need to have a legend of a thousand year dead man to have a reason to be nice to people. That's a steaming pile of horse dung. And my other point is that we don't need to know WHERE we came from, or know where we're GOING, so much as HOW we get there.

Logically impossible? What's so hard to grasp about it, if I may ask? And actually, uhh, yea, we kind of need God to be nice to people - hint, hint - God is all things good. Anyone who shows ANY sign of goodness, has God's spirit working through them, whether they realize it or not. All evil comes from a lack of God.

Your posts are the reason so many people are confused about the world right now. The things I could say to you people...

But no matter. You will find out...eventually. What's wrong with being nice for the sake of being nice?

I don't need any friggin' god to do that. And that's what makes me powerful in my own life.

Say it, then. What's the point of keeping secrets? If you think you know something, share it. There's nothing wrong with being nice, whoever said that? Do you think I condemn people for being nice if they don't believe in God? What kind of logic is that? How does being nice even grant you any kind of power, anyways?