Are these 9/11 conspiracies based upon culture rather than fact?

I was watching the Japanese anime series "Ghost in the Shell" the other day (if you're not familiar with Japanese anime, they're essentially cartoons that can and do have adult subject matter...and way better stories and artwork) where a story unfolded of a secret conspiracy of super powerful corporations being able to usurp the gov't at will, and it struck me that because it's a Japanese creation, the story was unintentionally reflecting the Japanese people's own outlook on their society. Rather than some super powerful sinsiter gov't that could bend the laws of reality with near supernatural power, their view is that the gov't is an inherently weak and toothless bunch who are repeatedly being used as puppets by their mega-corporations and it's really the mega-corporations who are the ones staging their conspiracies.

You will notice how that differs from the mentality shown here where the belief is held that an all powerful central gov't is staging the conspiracies, not becuase we don't have our own mega-corporations, but because it's the idea of a central gov't which is the boogeyman our culture has been taught to be concerned about, the same way corporations have a much more sinister unfeeling character in Japanese culture. Anyone seeing those videos where auto-workers are instructed to do company sponsored morning exercises will see their corporations have more control over people's lives there than their gov't does..

I looked into a few different cultures and I see the same pattern occurring over and over how conspiracies are influenced by culture- over in the UK they think Princess Di was secretly murdered by the royal family to stop her from embarassing them. Over in the mideast they either think Israel has secret agents manipulating everything, or the myriad opposing muslim sects that are behind everything. In Armenia they're blaming Turkey on everything. In India they think Pakistani Muslims are behind everything. I even heard that in Africa they think the Chinese are deliberately mass marketing their weapons to string the war in Darfur along because they want to colonize it. Time and time again, people are consistantly "running back to mama" and blaming some culturally identified boogeyman whenever they have a need to promote some conspiracy idea or another.

The question therefore is, are these 9/11 conspiracies simply yet another outlet for people to make up outrageous accusations against the "sinister secret gov't" boogeyman they've come to embrace? It would explain why person A insists "the real truth behind the 9/11 attack" is that it was staged by the gov't while person B insists "the real truth behind the 9/11 attack" is that it was staged by the Jewish World Order. I've even heard the Scientologists insist "the real truth behind the 9/11 attack" is that phychiatrists hypnotized the hijackers to stage the attack, since Scientology's main boogeyman is- SURPRISE- psychiatrists.

Now watch, someone is going to deny this in one moment, and in the next moment accuse me of being a secret gov't agent posting disinformation.

I would say so. Everyone in the upper echelon of financial wealth, top 10% of the worlds population are unhappy even though they have astronomically more freedoms, items and stuff than that bottom 90%. We are unhappy with capitalism which is why we place the target on corporations, on oil companies, on the financiers that play with numbers to make money out of thin air. We are unhappy but are unwilling to look at the actual culprits, ourselves for buying into this scheme.

9/11 was one of the first things people could bite into and say "This is rotten!" Not because it is rotten per say, but because we have been fed up with this lifestyle for far too long. We want a government conspiracy, we want a flip in the world we see.


Just something that came to mind, probably off topic.

reply to post by GoodOlDave

The question therefore is, are these 9/11 conspiracies simply yet another outlet for people to make up outrageous accusations against the "sinister secret gov't" boogeyman they've come to embrace?

let me see if I can respond. After delving into the 911 truth community I found that there are two types of "truthers".

Those who, like your quote there, are paranoid and merely need an outlet to rail against the government, anything and everything is a massive conspiracy by "them" against "us".

The other side are those, like me, who researched it for whatever reasons, and found it hard to ignore basics rules of physics, as well as the many other oddities and inconsistencies in the "narrative"

So right now, I'd say it's an 80-20 split. 80 percent are just nutz, holograms, mini nukes, space weapons, aliens, pods, no planes, missiles..... Those people are just loose in the head.

20 percent have lingering doubts and questions, without a theory pointing to "them".

I've gone through various different feelings on this, started completely against it trying to prove the truthers wrong, ended up becoming one in the process. Later I became disenfranchised with the methods and directions people were talking, turning it into a giant clusterfrak of insanity.

Personally, I'd like to think that roughly 20% of the 80% is actually paid opposition.

...
Wow, what a ramble... Short answer:

Yes, for a good chunk of the truthers, it's a culture based thing.

In the 60s-70s it was the moon landing conspiracy and jfk, now it's 911.

Wow.... So professional Airline pilots...highly regarded Professors...Eye witness's...not speculation or heresay but solid hard cold black and white facts that 911 did not go down as *OUR GOVERNMENT* said it did... are all simply the works of our imaginations and needing a scapegoat? Based on you watching anime cartoons? You found a connection?

:0/

Originally posted by AaronWilson
I would say so. Everyone in the upper echelon of financial wealth, top 10% of the worlds population are unhappy even though they have astronomically more freedoms, items and stuff than that bottom 90%. We are unhappy with capitalism which is why we place the target on corporations, on oil companies, on the financiers that play with numbers to make money out of thin air. We are unhappy but are unwilling to look at the actual culprits, ourselves for buying into this scheme.

9/11 was one of the first things people could bite into and say "This is rotten!" Not because it is rotten per say, but because we have been fed up with this lifestyle for far too long. We want a government conspiracy, we want a flip in the world we see.


Just something that came to mind, probably off topic.

On the contrary, i think it's very relevent to the topic. Everyone here knows my viewpoint is that all these 9/11 conspiracies are beign driven by a bunch of damned fool conspiracy websites run by con artists like Dylan Avery and outright lunatics like Alex Jones. In cases like Loose Change, there wasn't really any attempt to point out any conspiracy, but rather it was an attempt to throw out literally every conspiracy theory Avery knew of in a shotgun effect, in the hopes that at least something would grab hold. The "flight 93 landed in Ohio", and the "security personnel were bringing out a blue tarp covered object from the Pentagon", claims all fizzled out, but the "Bush's cousin was in charge of WTC security" and "no plane hit the Pentagon" claims are surviving.

The question is, who else but the people who are paranoid of these "sinister secret gov't plots" would be going to such antiestablishment sources of information to begin with? I've never even heard of Alex Jones until the truthers kept referencing him as a news source so of course people who are paranoid of sinister secret gov't plots are going to listen to these characters shovelling out stories of sinister secret plots. It's not any attempt to find otu the truth behind the 9/11 attack. It's just a Rorschach test where people see the patterns in images they specifically want to see.

If this happened in England they'd probably be accusing the queen of blowing up the towers for some thin-as-tissue-paper conspiracy to protect the honor of the royal family. It makes just about as much sense as the claims the gov't staging the 9/11 attack to frame some third world country that not even the Soviets thought was worth fighting over.

Originally posted by tracehd1
Wow.... So professional Airline pilots...highly regarded Professors...Eye witness's...not speculation or heresay but solid hard cold black and white facts that 911 did not go down as *OUR GOVERNMENT* said it did... are all simply the works of our imaginations and needing a scapegoat? Based on you watching anime cartoons? You found a connection?

:0/

Actually yes. Just because the attack didn't go down "as our government says" it doesn't automagically mean the gov't engineered the whole thing. I for one think the gov't doesn't want to admit it's gigantic incompetence in its handling of 9/11, so this "the gov't was behind it all" is coming entirely from you truthers. The topic is to address one potential reason why.

FYI I know who the "professional airline pilots" and "highly regarded professors" who you're referring to are. They're nowhere near as highly regarded or even as qualified to be even making the claims they're making as you think they are.

reply to post by GoodOlDave


What if i was to tell you that i am a "truther" , and i dont beleive a word alex jones says ... infact i dont even visit any of these crazy truther websites you OSers keep banging on about .

What if i was to tell you that i have read the official reports , i have studied the blueprints of WTC 1 , WTC 2 , WTC 7 , and WTC 6 ...... and i still do not beleive the official story ?

What if i was to say that i beleive the sheer arrogance and ignorance of people like yourself is becoming more and more unneccessary every single thread ?

People BELIEVING in airliners weighing less than 200 tons totally destroying buildings weighing more than 400,000 tons in less than TWO HOURS can't possibly be cultural.

Does physics have a culture? Maybe ignorance of physics is a culture.

psik

Originally posted by RockLobster
reply to post by GoodOlDave

 

What if i was to tell you that i am a "truther" , and i dont beleive a word alex jones says ... infact i dont even visit any of these crazy truther websites you OSers keep banging on about .

What if i was to tell you that i have read the official reports , i have studied the blueprints of WTC 1 , WTC 2 , WTC 7 , and WTC 6 ...... and i still do not beleive the official story ?

What is I was to tell you that I don't necessarily accept the gov't's take on things either?

What if i was to say that i beleive the sheer arrogance and ignorance of people like yourself is becoming more and more unneccessary every single thread ?

What if I was to tell you that every OTHER reearcher in the world is more than happy to submit their findings to others for critical analysis, and that it's only the 9/11 truthers who insist everyone must agree with their claims without question, lest they be accused of being "goosestepping sheeple", "CNN Kool-Aid drinkers" or "Disinformation agents"?

Originally posted by psikeyhackr
People BELIEVING in airliners weighing less than 200 tons totally destroying buildings weighing more than 400,000 tons in less than TWO HOURS can't possibly be cultural.

Does physics have a culture? Maybe ignorance of physics is a culture.

psik

Would it be safe to say your biggest hurdle is that the upper third could not crush the lower 2/3s regardless of what happened between the two?

Originally posted by samkent

Originally posted by psikeyhackr
People BELIEVING in airliners weighing less than 200 tons totally destroying buildings weighing more than 400,000 tons in less than TWO HOURS can't possibly be cultural.

Does physics have a culture? Maybe ignorance of physics is a culture.

psik

Would it be safe to say your biggest hurdle is that the upper third could not crush the lower 2/3s regardless of what happened between the two?

If you are talking about an upper third then you are talking about the south tower. But the problem with the south tower is how it broke loose and tilted.

The issue with the north tower is less than 15% destroying the rest.

psik

reply to post by psikeyhackr

If you are talking about an upper third then you are talking about the south tower. But the problem with the south tower is how it broke loose and tilted.

Does that mean if we can show you how it 'broke loose and tilted' you could accept it could destroy the rest of the building?

Originally posted by GoodOlDave
...accuse me of being a secret gov't agent posting disinformation.

People do so because the official story STINKS so bad that even a 5 year old smells something funny.

I would need at LEAST a few dozen hands to count on all my fingers of how many "coincidences", suspicious actions, usual occurrences, and things that make ZERO sense involved with the official story.

Can you really blame anyone who does this? That in addition to the fact that you seem to have a pulse for NOTHING other than this subject here... hmmm...

reply to post by GoodOlDave

Now watch, someone is going to deny this in one moment, and in the next moment accuse me of being a secret gov't agent posting disinformation.

You're a secret agent posting disinformation.



Okay, enuff of that... though you must know you did all but ask for that reply, lol.

I tend to find various conspiracies based on an innate distrust of government that was planted, and has been gradually building, since the Kennedy assassination in 1963. And with the advent of the internet and instantaneous, 24-hour-a-day communications around the world, that distrust came out of the closet when it found out that it was not... and never had been alone.

No, it's too late now to close the barn doors and shut down the web. The horses are running free.

Personally, I find some of the official 9.11 account of events to run contrary to what I see with my own eyes from the aftermath. I never needed any loose chance to convince me that something funky was growing on the events of that day.

So... I guess if you want to label culture based on 22 November 1963, when it all began.

reply to post by GoodOlDave


I think culture certainly comes into it. A lot of 9/11 conspiracy belief in the US seems to me to be founded on a hatred and fear of government. I was surprised to see the other day on another thread about guns in US culture the visceral hatred expressed by some and how their guns would have to be prised from their dead fingers by the wicked forces of authority. Not surprising that anyone who thinks like that is more than ready to embrace anything negative about the US administration.

I don't think the same level of fear and hatred of government has arisen here in the UK, perhaps because we have a Queen as head of state, and maybe that is why conspiracy theories around the 7/7 London bombings have never got better than luke warm.

There are others though who have agendas and they are international. A quick google will show that there are those who blame 9/11, the Bali bombings in 2002, the Madrid train bombings of 2004, the London bombings of 7/7 and the Mumbai shootings of 2008 on Mossad. Could be an itsy witsy bit of jew hate in there.

Originally posted by samkent
reply to post by psikeyhackr

 

If you are talking about an upper third then you are talking about the south tower. But the problem with the south tower is how it broke loose and tilted.

Does that mean if we can show you how it 'broke loose and tilted' you could accept it could destroy the rest of the building?

Now how are you going to do that without knowing the mass of steel and concrete on every level?

How to Calculate Rotational Inertia
www.ehow.com...

How much mass was how far from the center of rotation?

psik

I'm sure a lot of the so-called 'conspiracy theorist' ideas originate, at least partially, from an internal psychological factor. People do seem to need someone to blame when things go wrong, we're all guilty of it. The cultural aspect of this is seemingly just that the fingers of blame point to whoever is the highest power, or greatest enemy, in the situation - and this varies from country to country, region to region, race to race and culture to culture.

However, this is not to say that the 'theories' presented are not correct. They need to be looked at rationally and logically, using evidence and intuition to work out if they are valid or not. This must be done on a case by case basis; one cannot simply say that all 'conspiracy theorists' are crazy just because David Icke (as an oft-used example, i've nothing against the chap) reckons the Queen's an inter-dimensional reptilian shapeshifter.

Very few of the popular 'conspiracy theories' (Christ I hate typing that, the OSs in most cases are bloody conspiracies!) will have formed out of pure fiction. There is usually some oddity to be found in the OS that some open-minded person will pick-up on, this snowballs and before long people are claiming aliens, Satanic cults and holograms are involved...

In my opinion the OS of 9/11 has been proven beyond all reasonable doubt (a British legal term) to be false, but the questions are: how much have 'they' lied about, was this done innocently or knowingly/malevolently, and how much involvement did 'they' have in the actual chain of events? 'They', in most cases, are said to be the US governement and/or TPTB, and this is key to understanding what happened that day and the events both before and after.

At the very least, going by what I have seen, the US government (or elements within it) had advanced knowledge of the 9/11 plot, allowed it to happen as a 'new Pearl Harbour' (see: the Project for the New American Century), and manipulated the unfolding situation to their advantage. There is a great amount of evidence pointing to something deeper than this, but it is hard to know what is true and what isn't from our somewhat detatched perspectives.

The heart of any reasonable 'truther's' argument should be simply pointing out many inconsistencies in the OS, and then saying 'if any single part of what i've said is true, then what are the implications?'. Begin with something most people can agree on like the true reasons for the wars in the Mid-East, and then work backwards. The debate around the collapse of the towers and the impacts of the planes into their various targets is so clouded that I don't think that can really be the focus of any argument, not if your going to change someones mind on this.

As with everthing though we need more debate and investigation, open-minded yet rational, and above all honest and fair.

I just quickly read your OP, but it's a very good post.

Yes, you are spot on. You will see that the majority of conspiracy theories have indeed an agenda, sometimes not even that obvious at first glance. And those agendas are simply people blaming whoever and whatever fits their boat and fits in their world view.

What if I tell you that I think that WE The People have a very good reason to think that 9/11 was an inside job because TPTB have been caught doing very bad things and almost always got and getting away with it without being held accountable. Things like The Gulf of Tonkin Incident , Iran contra, Watergate, giving people syphilis on purpose, illegal spying on citizens, torturing people, getting caught importing drugs into the US, selling guns to drug cartels, lying about safety of vaccinations, lying about the air quality at ground zero, stealing and destroying classified documents that would probably expose the corruption, lying under oath about having sex in the oval office, lying about Iraq 9/11 connection and WMD's just to go to war, lying about Jessica Lynch rescue, lying about Pat Tillman death, stonewalling the creation of 9/11 Commission, and when the victims families finally got the commission, appointing members with huge and obvious conflicts of interest.

And openly calling for assassination of whistle-blowers, assassinating citizens without showing Us The People any evidence that that person was guilty of any crime, or couldn’t be captured alive. What about killing the most wanted terrorist in the world and dropping his body into the ocean to sleep with the fishes just like the “”trustworthy” mobster would do. What about the President that promised the most transparent administration but instead is the complete opposite, said he wouldn’t sign the NDAA because of indefinite detention but in reality insisted that it would be put into the bill. What about our media that’s giving us a lot of false information and get caught doing so on purpose.

What about the TSA being the result of 9/11, and is constantly getting caught breaking the law themselves, abusing their authority, and lying about it. I’m sure many others could add a lot more to this list. What if I tell you that in MY OPINION the only reason no one who failed to do their job to protect those who died on 9/11 and try to cover it up is not in prison is because they really didn’t fail at all. Feel free to believe that our elected and non elected people in control of so many things that can make 9/11 happen or not happen are not lying, or are all innocent, but don't say that people don’t have a VERY good reason to believe that 9/11 was a some kind of an inside conspiracy, and they are just paranoid because of some culture.

Because the fact is that the government is full of people that should be in prison, and the reason they're not in prison is because they are in the government. Again, in my opinion not a single human-being on this planet should believe that their government would not stage a mass murder for some sick agenda.
The culture of TPTB lying and going to war based on lies is the reason.

It's all based on grade school physics, apparently.