Revelation prophecy; the futility of date-setting

reply to post by kennethmd


Well then unfortunately you know very little of what is in your bible, the Hindermost nation called the daughter of babylon, the nation that is ruled in high places by the king of babylon has many cities with a mingled people in her midst, the land sits upon many waters, where the merchants become rich by the abundance of her coveteousness lifestyles, the wealth of babylon has been plundered, yet the people are saying in themselves, we are mighty nation, a lady of kingdoms who wil never see sorrow or loss of children - then suddenly all of these famine, death sorrow in one day Jer 50,51Is13,48Rev18 ...so so soon suddenly

the sower wil be cut off in babylon , literally no food - spiritually - the sower sows the word of Elohiym

There is another recent thread in the "off-topic" section pointing America towards the date of July the third 2015.
This includes the assumption of a "tribulation date" of 1st of January 2012.
This illustrates another kind of fault that the "calculators" sometimes commit; declaring that we are in a "tribulation" quite irrespective of whether any real "tribulation" can be observed in the world outside.
If the calculator is following Daniel, the claim that we could be in the last three and a half years implies that the "abomination of desolation" has already been set up (so where is it?), and part of the meaning of "tribulation" is the official persecution of the church (so where is it?).

There is now a new thread entitled "Jesus said when he would return to the day".
What I see in the gospels and the beginning of Acts is a refusal to do anything of the kind.
Apparently this one looks for an end in 2022.

It will be necessary to come back to this thread on May the 27th, since, as we keep,being reminded, the prediction of Ronald Weinland expires on that date.
That, too, will demonstrate the point.

Originally posted by DISRAELI
There is a current thread- "Rapture imminent; could be in April 2012"- which illustrates this point very well...
Anyway, if nothing happens by the end of April, this counts as another failed prediction.

The end of April has come, and also gone.
So it is now time to come back and point out how this demonstrates the futility of date-setting.

reply to post by DISRAELI


Yes DISRAELI, data predictions come and go. Sad really.

Originally posted by DISRAELI
Another assumption which many calculators find attractive is that the timing chosen by God will coincide with Jewish religious festivals. This gives them an excuse to pin their predictions to a specific day in the calendar. Once again, we don’t have any real warrant for this theory. The purpose of these festival days is to celebrate things that God has done

The Fall festivals, Trumpets through the Last Day; God sets the dates for these at Lev 23: if the purpose of these days appointed by God (these are called the LORD's festivals at Lev 23- they are not called the Jews festivals) is to celebrate things God has done- what pre-Sinai things do these celebrate? Moreover, why does the apostle at Col 2:17 call them "a shadow of things to come"?

Day of Passover. The first of the Spring appointments: 14th day of the 1st month; an unblemished lamb sacrificed. Paul said this: "1Co 5:7 For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us"; does anyone have a guess as to when Christ our Passover was sacrificed? Any guesses at what time of year?

Day of Firstfruits. Begins the Spring harvest: first day of the week following Passover. The firstfruits of the Spring harvest are presented before the Lord. The apostle says this: "1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits"; okay does anyone have a guess as to when Christ became the firstfruits? Any guesses at what time of year?

Day of Pentecost. Ends the Spring harvest: 49 days after Firsfruits. Celebration. Close of appointments. Okay does anyone know of anything that happened on Pentecost that year? Anything big happening on Pentecost? Something about baptism and fire and tongues.

but we won’t find anything in scripture to support the idea that God will plan things the other way round.

Whoever wrote the four gospels is clearly demonstrating that God indeed plans things the other way around. The Spring festivals are clearly prophetic of the culmination of the first coming: now, as the Spring festivals are to the first coming; the Fall festivals are to ___________________. (Pretend its a college entrance question)

Day of Trumpets. 1st day of 7th month. First of the Fall festivals. The blowing of trumpets throughout the land. Only festival appointed to a new moon, and so only festivals impossible to determine exact day and hour that it starts: only festival one can miss if no actively WATCHING: trumpets sounding? Sound familiar? *cough* Rev *cough*

Day of Judgment. 10th day of 7th month. Judgment. Nuff said. Judgment day? Sound familiar? *cough* Rev *cough*

Tabernacles. 15th-22nd of 7th month. Fruits and grapes gathered in clusters. Winepresses tread. Celebration. Close of Fall festivals. Clusters of grapes? Winepress? Sound familiar? *cough* Rev *cough*

The Last Day. Final appointment of Fall festivals.

Joh 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.

Come and drink? Sound familiar? *cough* Rev *cough*

Re 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Note it isn't possible to know the year as plainly as the day/month, but I will plainly say, all of the false prophets have clearly done their work in jading people to the knowledge of the timing; but then again, Jesus warned Jerusalem:

Lu 19:42 Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes. For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side, And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.

All because they did't know the time.

If there’s no reason

reply to post by MrCobb

You're making a big deal out of the exact day of the last trumpet?
And have you looked through the pages of Revelation to see what actually happens when the seventh trumpet is blown?

In the first place, the point where the seventh trumpet is blown is only half-way through the book! It certainly isn't the last thing that happens, because half the book is still to come!
OK, admittedly much of the remainder consists of "flashbacks" and alternate accounts of things that have already happened.
Nevertheless, it is true that the seventh trumpet does not immediately bring the day of final day of judgement. The only immediate effect is the arrival of the seven angels with bowls, who start pouring them out to create the final climax. Then there is the gathering of the armies to the field of Armageddon, and only then does Christ arrive in ch19, eight whole chapters after the trumper was blown.
So the moment of the blowing of the seventh trumpet simply means that there are more events to come.
Yes, there is a sense in which the trumpet introduces "the last day, the day of judgement", but only if that "day" is completely detached from literal calendar days.
Your mistake is trying to tie in "last day" references to literal calendar days, and that's not what God means.

Originally posted by MrCobb
Lu 19:42 Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! ... and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.

All because they did't know the time.

You are misusing and misquoting the scripture..
In the first place, "know" in this context, means "recognise".
"You did not know the time of your visitation" means "the time of your visitation has already happened [in that Jesus has been amongst them] and you did not recognise it".
There is no suggestion in the passage that they needed to know the date of his arrival in order to save themselves.
No, what they needed to know was TA PROS EIRENEN- "the things which relate to your peace". In other words, they needed to know what would bring them into a right relationship with God.
That is still true even now. We don't need to know the day when God will come in judgement. We do need to know how to be in the right relationship with him when he does come. That is all the "preparation" we need.

In the way you apply that Luke passage, you suggest that God's people need to "know the time" when he will arrive in order to be safe. You clearly haven't thought that suggestion through, because the implications of it are positively grotesque.
"Ok folks, your long ordeal is over. This lifeboat is going to rescue all of you shipwrecked people in the water- but only if you managed to predict the exact moment when the boat would arrive. You weren't expecting us for another hour? Then you don't qualify- back into the water you go."
No, nothing in the New Testament tells us that we need to "know the time" in the sense of knowing an exact date in the future.
No part of our salvation hangs on that knowledge.

reply to post by DISRAELI

Originally posted by DISRAELI
reply to post by MrCobb

 

You're making a big deal out of the exact day of the last trumpet?

Okay you've inexplicably missed my entire post so I guess I'm having to repeat myself. You said this:

Another assumption which many calculators find attractive is that the timing chosen by God will coincide with Jewish religious festivals. This gives them an excuse to pin their predictions to a specific day in the calendar. Once again, we don’t have any real warrant for this theory. The purpose of these festival days is to celebrate things that God has done

The "Jewish religious festivals" you are talking about which people (myself being one of them) use to indicate exact day/month timing being used by God are found at Leviticus 23 specifically (and they are called "MY festivals" not "your festivals" or "Jewish festivals" they are called the "festivals of the LORD"). You said "we don't have any real warrant for this theory" though the precedent says otherwise:

The 1st day appointed at Leviticus 23 is PASSOVER on the 14th day of the 1st month: Jesus was crucified on the 14th day of the 1st month: ON THE DAY OF PASSOVER; BETWEEN THE EVENINGS
The first day of the week following Passover is FIRSTFRUITS as the firstfruits of the harvest are gleaned and presented: Jesus rose from the dead and presented Himself the first day of the week after Passover: ON THE DAY OF FIRSTFRUITS
49 days after Firstfruits comes the closing day of the first harvest called PENTECOST: Jesus baptized His disciples with FIRE and SPIRIT 49 days after His presentation as firstfruits from the dead: ON THE DAY OF PENTECOST

Okay, so this is clear and undeniable biblical precedent that what you are saying is completely wrong, God is not acting according to some randomly determined unknowable timing: He is clearly and undeniabley acting at clearly and previously appointed day/month timing. Indeed, the entire purpose of the gospels is to demonstrate that the man Jesus of Nazareth has fulfilled the Spring festivals PASSOVER through PENTECOST demonstrating that He is indeed the promised Messiah of Whom ALL THE LAW is but a shadow.

But trust me, I once had the exact same understanding as you, then some guy came along and showed me this stuff, and it blew my mind but there it was- ring a ding ding; king of, alarm bells ringing. First you're shocked at the utter truth of it, then you're shocked at the utter simplicity of it, then you're shocked that everyone somehow missed it all these years, then you realize that your own intellect is meaningless and God just reveals things when IT'S TIME and puts it right in front of everyone's faces.

But anyway, there it is: Jesus is obviously acting according to the Lev 23 appointments. The bible clearly testifies that the first coming culminated in the fulfillment of the Spring festivals; but, good luck finding testimony of Christ's fulfillment of the Fall festivals TRUMPETS through THE LAST DAY. It's suspiciously, absent.

But I get the feeling that the Revelation is a free preview. Or, maybe it's just a coincidence that half the imagery in the Revelation is identical to Fall festival imagery. Also, be sure to check out my thread "timing is everything"

Originally posted by MrCobb

Sorry, I've been off-line for several days, so I've had to think myself back into this subject

they are called "MY festivals" not "your festivals" or "Jewish festivals" they are called the "festivals of the LORD"

There are two reasons why this quibble is unnecessary.
Firstly, there is no reason whatsoever why both statements cannot be true. They can be the festivals that belong to the Lord (in one sense) and the festivals that belong to the Jews (in another sense) at one and the same time.
If they are religious festivals celebrated by the Jews, it is perfectly legitimate to call them Jewish religious festivals, and I intend to go on using the phrase, so that people know which festivals I'm talking about.
Secondly, it doesn't matter in the least which description we use, because it doesn't affect the argument one way or another.

, good luck finding testimony of Christ's fulfillment of the Fall festivals TRUMPETS through THE LAST DAY. It's suspiciously, absent.

Now it's your turn to miss the point of one of my arguments.
If the trumpets are associated with "the last day", this cannot refer to to literal calendar days.
This is clear from the narrative in Revelation, where the blowing of the trunpet is obviously being followed by a large number of calendar days.
Therefore the phrase must be using the word "day" in some larger, metaphorical, sense, not related to calendar days.
But if this phrase "the last day" does not relate to literal calendar days, it is quite useless for fixing dates on a calendar.

This thread was originally prompted by someone predicting elsewhere that Christ would return on this date.
As I pointed out, this implied that all the events described in Revelation would take place during the interval.
As I remarked on the first page

Even so, that is a lot of action to get through in only three months.

Now that May 27th has arrived, it looks as though the optimistic calculator was mistaken, which proves my point.
I'm not sure if that poster was getting his calculations from Ronald Wienland, who was also, apparently, expecting the return of Christ on this date. That saga has its own long-running thread.

reply to post by DISRAELI

Further to this point, ie that the predicted May 27th has come and nearly gone;
Here is something which I have noticed before on ATS, relating to these dated doomsday predictions. whether Biblical or numerological or coming from any other source..
However intense the previous speculation has been, it has always died down by the time the day in question has dawned.
People are not coming forward to remind us- meaning it seriously, rather than sarcastically- that "this is the day when it's going to happen".
It appears that people can believe in the predicted day only when it is safely at a distance.
Once the cold reality of the day arrives, in all its normality, that's enough to convince them that nothing is going to happen, and they don't even wait for the end of the day before quietly abandoning the expectation and falling silent.

Originally posted by DISRAELI

Originally posted by MrCobb

Sorry, I've been off-line for several days, so I've had to think myself back into this subject

No problem whatsoever.

they are called "MY festivals" not "your festivals" or "Jewish festivals" they are called the "festivals of the LORD"

There are two reasons why this quibble is unnecessary. Firstly, there is no reason whatsoever why both statements cannot be true. They can be the festivals that belong to the Lord (in one sense) and the festivals that belong to the Jews (in another sense) at one and the same time. If they are religious festivals celebrated by the Jews, it is perfectly legitimate to call them Jewish religious festivals, and I intend to go on using the phrase, so that people know which festivals I'm talking about. Secondly, it doesn't matter in the least which description we use, because it doesn't affect the argument one way or another.

You're right in a certain sense; if we are just wanting to point someone to the day-month appointments, it doesn't matter what we call them. BUT, I will quibble that by calling them "My feasts" and not "your feasts" God is indicating that these day-month timing appointments are ultimately appointments for HIM to keep. We see in the NT that these appointments are truly HIS: meaning, the Jews- while they indeed observe the Passover- did not nor ever will FULFILL the Passover. Christ is the only man to fulfil the appointment through the crucifixion: thus demonstrating that He is the one making the appointments and fulfilling them: they are truly HIS appointments.

And so if we call them the "Jewish festivals" we're robbing the appointments of their intended association by and through Christ. But, you know, no big deal if we're just pointing at them; but when you get down to the grit, it does matter,

, good luck finding testimony of Christ's fulfillment of the Fall festivals TRUMPETS through THE LAST DAY. It's suspiciously, absent.

Now it's your turn to miss the point of one of my arguments.
If the trumpets are associated with "the last day", this cannot refer to to literal calendar days.

The Day of Trumpets falls on Tishri 1; the 1st day of the 7th month. The Last Day falls on Tishri 22; the 22nd day of the 7th month. The only association that the Last Day has to the Day of trumpets is that they are both boundary points of the fall festivals: the first day (Trumpets; Tishri 1) and the last day (actually called the Last Day; Tishri 22)

Let me repeat again that because the Day of Trumpets (that is, Tishri 1, the 1st day of the 7th month) is the ONE AND ONLY festival appointed to the 1st day of a month; it is the ONE AND ONLY festival of which NO MAN KNOWS THE DAY AND HOUR it begins. This is because a new month doesn't begin until the light of the new moon is first observed in waxing. Thus, all months will always have at least 29 days in them; but no one knows beforehand if the day following the 29th will be the 30th day of the same month, or if it will be the 1st day of the next month. If the waxing crescent is not seen on the 29th, then the next day will be the 30th and the 1st day of the next month will fall after the 30th day of the previous month; BUT if the waxing crescent is seen, then there will be no 30th day, and the next day will be the 1st day of the new month.

This 48-hour window of uncertainty following the 29th of every month becomes very special when we get to the ONE AND ONLY festival to be appointed to the 1st day of the month; it makes the Day of Trumpets singular in the fact that, not only does it begin the fall festivals, but we have to WATCH or the festival can actually catch you unaware!

This is clear from the narrative in Revelation, where the blowing of the trunpet is obviously being followed by a large number of calendar days.

There are 22 days between the Day of Trumpets and the Last Day. Also bear in mind that every 49 years you have a special Day of Judgment (Tishri 10) called a Jubilee Judgment on which a special trumpet called the TRUMPET OF JUBILEE is blown. When this GREAT TRUMPET is blown, it signals the immediate cancellation of all debt for everyone; it immediately releases all slaves from their servitude (whether the servitude was willingly engaged, or forcably).

So, again, what we have here is a pattern of two groups of festivals revolving around two harvests: spring and fall. The NT plainly reveals to the entire world that the first harvest festivals which are Passover, Firstfruits through Pentecost were fulfilled by the man Jesus of Nazareth. That means God has given me a pattern which is clearly half-fulfilled. That means I can do one of two things:

1. Ignore the pattern and deem it irrelevant. God has plainly fulfilled the first half but apparently completely abandoned the second half.
2. Observe the pattern and deem it relevant. God has plainly fulfilled the first half and will do likewise with the second half.

Personally, this is a no-brainer for me. Thus if requested, I will actually stand on a mountaintop and proclaim, "As the spring festivals were fulfilled at the first coming; the fall festivals will be fulfilled at the second coming; and Christ will return on Tishri 10 with the sound of the Trumpet of the Jubilee Judgment"

Now, but what year? That is a different story. But one thing I know for fact (and any that disagree will at some point also recant and join me in my certainty) are the appointed days and months. So if you see someone saying, "Jesus will return on Pentecost" or "Jesus will return on Tevet 10" or "Jesus will return on Av 9" or ANY date that is not Tishri 10: well, what you have there is a false prophet with zero understanding. Guarenteed.

Originally posted by DISRAELI
This thread was originally prompted by someone predicting elsewhere that Christ would return on this date.

Would anyone really believe it if christ actually did return?

Because throughout the past,many individuals claimed to have been christ returned and the vast majority of people did not believe them...

But,think about this,what if one of them actually was christ?

List Of People Claimed To Be Jesus > en.wikipedia.org...

Originally posted by DISRAELI
reply to post by DISRAELI

 

Further to this point, ie that the predicted May 27th has come and nearly gone;
Here is something which I have noticed before on ATS, relating to these dated doomsday predictions. whether Biblical or numerological or coming from any other source..
However intense the previous speculation has been, it has always died down by the time the day in question has dawned.
People are not coming forward to remind us- meaning it seriously, rather than sarcastically- that "this is the day when it's going to happen".
It appears that people can believe in the predicted day only when it is safely at a distance.
Once the cold reality of the day arrives, in all its normality, that's enough to convince them that nothing is going to happen, and they don't even wait for the end of the day before quietly abandoning the expectation and falling silent.

I wanted also to note something here to distinguish what I am saying from most others:

I am presenting to you information that is CLEARLY witnessed by the bible itself. These two groups of festivals clearly exist in the bible, and the appointed day and month cannot be missed; it is super simple and super clear. What we have here at Lev 23 (and elsewhere) is the clear appointing of a pattern divided into two groups; a FIRST half of a pattern and a LAST half of a pattern. The NT then also makes it abundantly and exceedingly clear that work of the man Jesus of Nazareth culminated EXACTLY on these appointed dates corresponding to the FIRST half of the appointed pattern: on Passover He was crucified, on Firstfruits He was raised and presented, on Pentecost He baptized with fire and the Holy Spirit. So what I am saying is clearly rooted in scripture, and there is ZERO interpretation involved- this stuff is being spelled out with an unmissable clarity.

Okay, so FIRST half clearly testified. We have HALF of a pattern fulfilled. Naturally, it is entirely reasonable and rational to conclude that the LAST half of the pattern be fulfilled just as prominently as the first half. In fact, after being presented with the info with which I am now presenting, any rational being is forced into this conclusion. This is, in fact, why I am even saying this at all. I am rationally forced to this conclusion: it is inescapable. The spring festivals appointed the very days and months (but not the year) on which the first coming culminated; to conclude then that the fall festivals appoint the very days and months (but not the year) is the only logical outcome here.

BUT my point is this: even if you disagree (somehow) with what I am proposing here- you have to admit it makes sense. This is not information I am just pulling out of thin air or chanelling from Xeta Reticuli or claiming visions or anything such thing: this is point blank info in the bible that is giving us a half-fulfilled pattern. But the point here is that anyone reading this should at least be able to say, "I can understand why you're saying it"

Now go and look at people like Camping and Weinland and whoever else is out there just throwing things into the air that make zero sense. Look, I've watched this stuff going on for years. I'm a REAL skeptic (meaning, one who is actually a skeptic and not just a person who uses the word 'skeptic' to excuse some bias) and I'm not trying to blow a horn here or anything, but I'm pretty intelligent. Now, I've watched these people with their predictions and I am ALWAYS willing to hear anyone's case to evaluate it for myself. But I can say that every single time I look at anyone's "predictions" they are based on things that don't even make sense at all. It's all warped interpretations mixed with bad "numerology" I mean, seriously, I have people shoing me things like 17x3x3x7x5 and saying "that is the justice number of God!" or some such absolute nonsense. Or "let's take the age of Noah at the flood and times it by seven while incorporating" and it is just meaningless nonsense to which I can only thnk, "How on earth did they deceive themselves into thinking this garbage actually makes some sort of rational sense; let alone everyone else buying into this?"

But if you look at what I am saying here you will see it is an entirely different animal. It is simple, clear, reasonable. And it's true. Unfortunately, the exact year isn't so clear. But it looks to me that God is wanting to remove all doubt as to the days and months. My personal conviction here is that He is doing this to give us the ability to distinguish the "son of perdition" from Christ; without giving away the specific year with the same clarity; because it looks to me that everyone in the world, including most of the Christians, are going to make a horrific mistake in the very near future that will cost all of them their crowns. A mistake that can only be avoided by knowing the days and months these pre-appointed events fall on

Originally posted by MrCobb

This is clear from the narrative in Revelation, where the blowing of the trunpet is obviously being followed by a large number of calendar days.

There are 22 days between the Day of Trumpets and the Last Day.

This still seems to me to be not enough time.
The interval after the end of ch11 has to cover, at the very least, the whole of the "seven bowls", including the "gathering of the nations to the field of Armageddon".

reply to post by blocula

All the individuals mentioned in your link should have been recognisable as fakes at the time, by the simple application of the advice given in Matthew ch24. This advice can be briefly paraphrased as "If you have to go somewhere to see him, or can go somewhere to see him, then he cannot be genuine". That covers all individuals born on earth, which answers in the negative your question "What if one of them really was the returned Christ".

We are told in Matthew ch24 and elsewhere that when Christ returned, he would be returning "with the clouds of heaven", ie backed by the full power of God, in an event which would be sudden and instantaneous. I do not believe it would be possible, in the circumstances, for anyone on earth to doubt what was going on.

reply to post by MrCobb

I think my real problem with this emphasis on God following a pattern is that I see it as yet another example of the vice of Legalism, which has always been one of the besetting sins of God's church.

Legalism is akin to Idolatry; they are both about trying to pin down religion to something which can be grasped, literally or metaphorically. That is what makes them so difficult to eradicate, because the human race hates dealing with things which cannot be grasped, and keeps trying to revert back to something more comfortable.
Hence the attraction of literal idols in Old Testament times, and things that can be treated as idols in various parts of the church.
Hence the attraction of a set of rules which can be easily grasped, and careful definitions, whether they are presented by Pharisees or by casuistic Jesuits.
The Protestant community has kicked out Legalism in these forms, only to find other ways of intoducing it.
If you try to understand Calvinist teaching on Election, you will find Legalism in its most intense form.
In fact all the teaching which begins to lay stress on different stages of "Covenant" is getting very Legalistic.
Evangelical Christianity in general has always had a strong tendancy to get Legalistic about interpreting the words of the Bible (e.g. Luther on "This is my body"). The demand that words should be taken literally, or that they should always have the same meaning wherever they are used, is about treating words the way lawyers treat them (rather than the way ordinary people treat them).
Similarly, to me, saying "God will do something on a date which we can calculate" is just as Legalistic as saying "God will do something providing a properly ordained person performs the right actions and says the right words". They are both about trying to control God's actions, and pin him down to something which can be grasped.
The crux of my case is that "God will follow a pattern" doesn't escape this criticism. It is still a case of trying to pin God down to something which can be grasped. And that, I think, is what makes it so attractive to the people who discover it. It is another way of appealing to humanity's fundamental weakness in the matter of religion, the need for graspability.