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USAF: Indian Exercises Showed Need For F/A-22, Changes In Training
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A recent exercise with the Indian Air Force is causing U.S. Air Force officials to re-evaluate the way the service trains its fighter pilots while
bolstering the case for buying the F/A-22 as a way to ensure continued air dominance for the United States, according to service officials.
The surprising sophistication of Indian fighter aircraft and skill of Indian pilots demonstrated at the Cope India air combat exercise Feb. 15 through 27 at Gwalior Air Force Station, India, should provide a reality check for those who had assumed unquestioned U.S. air superiority, service officials who participated in the exercise said this week. The event was the first-ever air combat exercise involving the U.S. and India and the most active bilateral military exchange in over 40 years, according to these officials.
�The major takeaway for the Air Force is that our prediction of needing to replace the F-15 with the F/A-22 is proving out as we get smarter and smarter about other [countries�] capabilities around the world and what technology is limited to in the F-15 airframe,� said Col. Mike Snodgrass, commander of the 3rd Wing at Elmendorf Air Force Base, AK. �We�ve taken [the F-15] about as far as we can and it�s now time to move to the next generation.� Snodgrass, who has been selected to receive his first star, and two other wing officials spoke with Inside the Air Force June 2.
The Air Force has been arguing the absolute necessity of the F/A-22 since the program began. But the performance of the Indians in direct competition against the Air Force�s best fighter, the F-15C, was particularly striking evidence of an endangered U.S. lead in air combat capability, the statements of service officials indicate.
Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. John Jumper told the Senate Appropriations defense subcommittee in March that the results of Cope India were �very revealing,� although he declined to elaborate in a public forum. Privately, other senior service officials have pointed to Cope India as evidence that continued U.S. air superiority is dependent on the F/A-22.
Although service officials have been reluctant to detail how the Indians performed against the six F-15Cs from the 3rd Wing that participated in Cope India, Rep. Duke Cunningham (R-CA) said in a Feb. 26 House Appropriations defense subcommittee hearing that U.S. F-15Cs were defeated more than 90 percent of the time in direct combat exercises against the IAF.
Officials from the 3rd Wing at Elmendorf did not provide specifics about how their aircraft fared, but said the experience is causing the service to reevaluate the way it trains its pilots for air-to-air operations.
�What happened to us was it looks like our red air training might not be as good because the adversaries are better than we thought,� Snodgrass said. �And in the case of the Indian Air Force both their training and some of their equipment was better than we anticipated.�
�Red air� refers to the way the Air Force simulates enemy capability in air combat training. Because the service has assumed for years that its fighters are more capable than enemy aircraft, the U.S. pilots that simulate the enemy, known as �red� forces, in air combat training are required to operate under rules that constrain their combat capability.
�We have always believed that our technology was superior to everyone else�s technology, that we would fight a somewhat inferior adversary, so we have had to supply a simulated adversary from our own resources; we call that �red air,�� Snodgrass said.
As a result, Air Force pilots are used to flying against an enemy whose combat capability is deliberately limited.
�There are manoeuvering limits as well as weapons employment limits, what we believe enemy aircraft may be able to do with their weapons systems, so we try to simulate that in our own airplane with our own weapons,� Snodgrass explained. �It becomes very complex because instead of using the airplane the way it was designed, you now have to come up with rules of thumb that limit what you do and cause you to not perform . . . the way we really would want to in combat.�
The Cope India exercises consisted of air combat maneuvers in which pilots would practice their fighter tactics and fly against each other one-on-one, as well as simulated combat scenarios. It was during this simulated combat, which included both �offensive counterair� and �defensive counterair� scenarios, that the Indians proved the most formidable, according to the 3rd Wing officials. In the offensive counterair scenarios, a small number of F-15Cs would attempt to intercept an enemy strike aircraft en route to a target that was guarded by a larger number of Indian fighters. In the defensive counterair missions, the F-15s would attempt to defend a target against Indian fighters.
In these offensive and defensive missions, four F-15Cs were usually flying against 10 or 12 of the same model Indian fighter, according to Col. Greg Neubeck, deputy commander of operations for the wing�s 3rd Operations Group and exercise director for Cope India. The 3rd Operations Group is responsible for the 3rd Wing�s flying mission.
The Indians flew a number of different fighters, including the French-made Mirage 2000 and the Russian-made MIG-27 and MIG-29, but the two most formidable IAF aircraft proved to be the MIG-21 Bison, an upgraded version of the Russian-made baseline MIG-21, and the SU-30K Flanker, also made in Russia, Neubeck said. He emphasized the fact that U.S. forces were always outnumbered in these scenarios, but said the missions proved more difficult than expected.
�What we faced were superior numbers, and an IAF pilot who was very proficient in his aircraft and smart on tactics. That combination was tough for us to overcome,� Neubeck said.
One reason the Indian pilots proved so formidable is that their training regimen does not include a concept of �red air.� Instead, �they fly pretty much blue-on-blue . . . [a] full-up airplane with no restrictions against somebody else�s airplane with no restrictions, and that leads to more proficiency with your aircraft,� Neubeck said.
In addition to reinforcing the need for the F/A-22, therefore, Cope India demonstrated that the service might be able to immediately improve its air combat capability by changing the way Air Force pilots train.
�The Air Force is re-examining, from what I can understand, our concept of red air and how we might be able to provide red air to our fighter forces so that we get [the best] training we can afford,� Snodgrass said.
Neubeck said the service probably needs to �take off the handcuffs that we put on our red air training aids and allow them to be more aggressive and make the red air tougher than we have in the past.�
Although India is a friendly nation, the lesson of Cope India is that almost any nation could surpass the United States� air combat capability if the Pentagon does not continue to invest in better training and technology, the Elmendorf officials said. At last count, for example, there were over 5,000 MIG-21s active in air forces around the world, Snodgrass said. Even American fighters, such as Boeing�s F-15, are being sold in upgraded versions to countries around the world.
�I believe what this demonstrates is that the capacity exists out there for any nation with the appropriate resources and the will to acquire technology and to train their aircrews to be very, very capable,� said Col. Russ Handy, commander of the 3rd Operations Group. �In the long term this could occur in nations outside of the Indian Air Force.�
The Air Force will get another chance to test its capabilities against the Indians in July, when the IAF will bring its Jaguar fighter-bomber aircraft to Eielson AFB, AK, for the Cooperative Cope Thunder exercise. The 3rd Wing officers said their pilots had not yet flown against an Indian-piloted Jaguar.
None of the advanced Su-30MKI models participated in the exercise.
The surprising sophistication of Indian fighter aircraft and skill of Indian pilots demonstrated at the Cope India air combat exercise Feb. 15 through 27 at Gwalior Air Force Station, India, should provide a reality check for those who had assumed unquestioned U.S. air superiority, service officials who participated in the exercise said this week. The event was the first-ever air combat exercise involving the U.S. and India and the most active bilateral military exchange in over 40 years, according to these officials.
�The major takeaway for the Air Force is that our prediction of needing to replace the F-15 with the F/A-22 is proving out as we get smarter and smarter about other [countries�] capabilities around the world and what technology is limited to in the F-15 airframe,� said Col. Mike Snodgrass, commander of the 3rd Wing at Elmendorf Air Force Base, AK. �We�ve taken [the F-15] about as far as we can and it�s now time to move to the next generation.� Snodgrass, who has been selected to receive his first star, and two other wing officials spoke with Inside the Air Force June 2.
The Air Force has been arguing the absolute necessity of the F/A-22 since the program began. But the performance of the Indians in direct competition against the Air Force�s best fighter, the F-15C, was particularly striking evidence of an endangered U.S. lead in air combat capability, the statements of service officials indicate.
Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. John Jumper told the Senate Appropriations defense subcommittee in March that the results of Cope India were �very revealing,� although he declined to elaborate in a public forum. Privately, other senior service officials have pointed to Cope India as evidence that continued U.S. air superiority is dependent on the F/A-22.
Although service officials have been reluctant to detail how the Indians performed against the six F-15Cs from the 3rd Wing that participated in Cope India, Rep. Duke Cunningham (R-CA) said in a Feb. 26 House Appropriations defense subcommittee hearing that U.S. F-15Cs were defeated more than 90 percent of the time in direct combat exercises against the IAF.
Officials from the 3rd Wing at Elmendorf did not provide specifics about how their aircraft fared, but said the experience is causing the service to reevaluate the way it trains its pilots for air-to-air operations.
�What happened to us was it looks like our red air training might not be as good because the adversaries are better than we thought,� Snodgrass said. �And in the case of the Indian Air Force both their training and some of their equipment was better than we anticipated.�
�Red air� refers to the way the Air Force simulates enemy capability in air combat training. Because the service has assumed for years that its fighters are more capable than enemy aircraft, the U.S. pilots that simulate the enemy, known as �red� forces, in air combat training are required to operate under rules that constrain their combat capability.
�We have always believed that our technology was superior to everyone else�s technology, that we would fight a somewhat inferior adversary, so we have had to supply a simulated adversary from our own resources; we call that �red air,�� Snodgrass said.
As a result, Air Force pilots are used to flying against an enemy whose combat capability is deliberately limited.
�There are manoeuvering limits as well as weapons employment limits, what we believe enemy aircraft may be able to do with their weapons systems, so we try to simulate that in our own airplane with our own weapons,� Snodgrass explained. �It becomes very complex because instead of using the airplane the way it was designed, you now have to come up with rules of thumb that limit what you do and cause you to not perform . . . the way we really would want to in combat.�
The Cope India exercises consisted of air combat maneuvers in which pilots would practice their fighter tactics and fly against each other one-on-one, as well as simulated combat scenarios. It was during this simulated combat, which included both �offensive counterair� and �defensive counterair� scenarios, that the Indians proved the most formidable, according to the 3rd Wing officials. In the offensive counterair scenarios, a small number of F-15Cs would attempt to intercept an enemy strike aircraft en route to a target that was guarded by a larger number of Indian fighters. In the defensive counterair missions, the F-15s would attempt to defend a target against Indian fighters.
In these offensive and defensive missions, four F-15Cs were usually flying against 10 or 12 of the same model Indian fighter, according to Col. Greg Neubeck, deputy commander of operations for the wing�s 3rd Operations Group and exercise director for Cope India. The 3rd Operations Group is responsible for the 3rd Wing�s flying mission.
The Indians flew a number of different fighters, including the French-made Mirage 2000 and the Russian-made MIG-27 and MIG-29, but the two most formidable IAF aircraft proved to be the MIG-21 Bison, an upgraded version of the Russian-made baseline MIG-21, and the SU-30K Flanker, also made in Russia, Neubeck said. He emphasized the fact that U.S. forces were always outnumbered in these scenarios, but said the missions proved more difficult than expected.
�What we faced were superior numbers, and an IAF pilot who was very proficient in his aircraft and smart on tactics. That combination was tough for us to overcome,� Neubeck said.
One reason the Indian pilots proved so formidable is that their training regimen does not include a concept of �red air.� Instead, �they fly pretty much blue-on-blue . . . [a] full-up airplane with no restrictions against somebody else�s airplane with no restrictions, and that leads to more proficiency with your aircraft,� Neubeck said.
In addition to reinforcing the need for the F/A-22, therefore, Cope India demonstrated that the service might be able to immediately improve its air combat capability by changing the way Air Force pilots train.
�The Air Force is re-examining, from what I can understand, our concept of red air and how we might be able to provide red air to our fighter forces so that we get [the best] training we can afford,� Snodgrass said.
Neubeck said the service probably needs to �take off the handcuffs that we put on our red air training aids and allow them to be more aggressive and make the red air tougher than we have in the past.�
Although India is a friendly nation, the lesson of Cope India is that almost any nation could surpass the United States� air combat capability if the Pentagon does not continue to invest in better training and technology, the Elmendorf officials said. At last count, for example, there were over 5,000 MIG-21s active in air forces around the world, Snodgrass said. Even American fighters, such as Boeing�s F-15, are being sold in upgraded versions to countries around the world.
�I believe what this demonstrates is that the capacity exists out there for any nation with the appropriate resources and the will to acquire technology and to train their aircrews to be very, very capable,� said Col. Russ Handy, commander of the 3rd Operations Group. �In the long term this could occur in nations outside of the Indian Air Force.�
The Air Force will get another chance to test its capabilities against the Indians in July, when the IAF will bring its Jaguar fighter-bomber aircraft to Eielson AFB, AK, for the Cooperative Cope Thunder exercise. The 3rd Wing officers said their pilots had not yet flown against an Indian-piloted Jaguar.
None of the advanced Su-30MKI models participated in the exercise.
About those pics... "Image Hosted by tripod".
If that's really how they have been practising there's definitely lot to improve.
If that's really how they have been practising there's definitely lot to improve.
OMFG stealth spy give it a rest the topic of the F-15 and India has been debated over 250 times and we all know what happened unless we ignore e the
facts like you, and this happened over 4 months ago so why are you posting about it now and say in a recent exercise?
i'd agree with Westpoint, that whis has being debated to death, everything you can think of, has being said.
The outcome of the disscussion was that its just the USAF trying to get congress to give them more money for more planes.
The outcome of the disscussion was that its just the USAF trying to get congress to give them more money for more planes.
The radar of the F-15s in the exercise was not that of the frontline fighters.
Please read all of those threads you listed, because I have had to tell about 20 people this in the last week
Please read all of those threads you listed, because I have had to tell about 20 people this in the last week
Originally posted by E_T
About those pics... "Image Hosted by tripod".
If that's really how they have been practising there's definitely lot to improve.
Oops ...sorry
Here the links of these pics :
Mig-21 with F-15 in the sky
Looking at F-15's out of a Mirage 2000 in alaska
Pic 3
Originally posted by Murcielago
i'd agree with Westpoint, that whis has being debated to death, everything you can think of, has being said.
I found this new aritcle with the USAF accepting its apparent poor show, and stressing on the need for the raptor and so i posted it.
Also why is westpoint so uncomfortable and evasive of articles that are not pompus about the USAF's domination and top rank
Originally posted by Murcielago
i'd agree with Westpoint, that whis has being debated to death, everything you can think of, has being said.
I found this new aritcle with the USAF accepting its apparent poor show, and stressing on the need for the raptor and so i posted it.
Also i found some not previously posted pics of the air exercises and wanted to share the same.
Also why is westpoint so uncomfortable and evasive of articles that are not pompus about the USAF's domination and top rank
holy crap, it doesn't matter what u're excuses are, u guys faced MiG-21's jeeze, those things are around 20 years older than an F-15, and even
though they're upgraded to BIS, that only upgrades the computer characteristics, it doesn't do anything to the actual performance of the aircraft,
doesn't increase thrust/speed, or maneuverability
and even though u didn't have u're radars, wat happened to all this american bravado, "our training is the best, wwe've never lost a F-16 or an F-15 in combat, hehehehe."
SHUTUP, jeeze, admit it u lost, even wit all u're fancy training and all thia crap
and just to say, u're radar wouldn't have made a difference, because russian radars are better anyways
(i don't want to be mean or crude or anything, but holy crap just stop being so......friggin cocky and annoying, jeeze americans, thats why few countries in the world actually like you)
and even though u didn't have u're radars, wat happened to all this american bravado, "our training is the best, wwe've never lost a F-16 or an F-15 in combat, hehehehe."
SHUTUP, jeeze, admit it u lost, even wit all u're fancy training and all thia crap
and just to say, u're radar wouldn't have made a difference, because russian radars are better anyways
(i don't want to be mean or crude or anything, but holy crap just stop being so......friggin cocky and annoying, jeeze americans, thats why few countries in the world actually like you)
Guess how many F-15s have been shot down in actual air to air combat?
Answer - F-15 Kill Ratio 140-0
Su-30s,Su-27s,Mirages and MiG-21s fare a lot worse,just that i havent found info on them yet.
[edit on 18/11/04 by W4rl0rD]
Answer - F-15 Kill Ratio 140-0
Su-30s,Su-27s,Mirages and MiG-21s fare a lot worse,just that i havent found info on them yet.
[edit on 18/11/04 by W4rl0rD]
Originally posted by Dima
holy crap, it doesn't matter what u're excuses are, u guys faced MiG-21's jeeze, those things are around 20 years older than an F-15, and even though they're upgraded to BIS, that only upgrades the computer characteristics, it doesn't do anything to the actual performance of the aircraft, doesn't increase thrust/speed, or maneuverability
and even though u didn't have u're radars, wat happened to all this american bravado, "our training is the best, wwe've never lost a F-16 or an F-15 in combat, hehehehe."
SHUTUP, jeeze, admit it u lost, even wit all u're fancy training and all thia crap
and just to say, u're radar wouldn't have made a difference, because russian radars are better anyways
(i don't want to be mean or crude or anything, but holy crap just stop being so......friggin cocky and annoying, jeeze americans, thats why few countries in the world actually like you)
If you knew the facts of the events then you would know that it was somewhat onesides. The Indians flew with AWACS and the range of the AIM-120 was limited about 30-50% for the tests. Also the US shiped over some of its more primitve F-15s. At the moment the F-15 is being upgraded with AIM-9X, ESRA radar, and helmet aiming system.
[edit on 11/18/04 by jetsetter]
Stop boasting about that one exercise,FredT tells us the Facts:
The Indian AF beats the USAF: Not ! The Real Story Behind The Cope India Exersize
Many of us were quite surprised when the stories first surfaced about the Indian Air Force (IAF) defeating the USAF F-15C's in a exersize. Some of you gloated about the USAF's cumuppance, while other (Me included) felt that it was a ploy for the USAF to make the case that it needed more F-22 Raptors. We know know that the deck was so stacked in the IAF's favor the F-15C's had no way of winning.
The details of the exersize have been revealed in this weeks AWST. Some of the salient points:
The 6 F-15C's were not equiped with the newest ESRA radar system that has 100 mile range
The IAF had a numerical advantage of 18 to 6
The F-15's had a 20 mile restriction placed on thier AIM-120's and they had to keep illuminating the target when fired rather than use them in a fire and forget mode.
The IAF had the use of a simulated AWACS plane (An-32 Cline)
The USAF pilots were very impressed by the tactics the IAF used and how they were able to mix it up instead of using inflexable Soviet era tactics The IAF used a mixed fleet including Mig-21's and Mirage 2000's. The IAF did not use the newer Su-30MKI's instead used thier Su-30's equiped with AA-11's and AA-12's. The AA-12 gave the F-15 pilots the most problems as they did not know when they were being illuminated.
The complete story is here, but you have to be a subscriber to AWST.
Cope India
The Indian AF beats the USAF: Not ! The Real Story Behind The Cope India Exersize
Many of us were quite surprised when the stories first surfaced about the Indian Air Force (IAF) defeating the USAF F-15C's in a exersize. Some of you gloated about the USAF's cumuppance, while other (Me included) felt that it was a ploy for the USAF to make the case that it needed more F-22 Raptors. We know know that the deck was so stacked in the IAF's favor the F-15C's had no way of winning.
The details of the exersize have been revealed in this weeks AWST. Some of the salient points:
The 6 F-15C's were not equiped with the newest ESRA radar system that has 100 mile range
The IAF had a numerical advantage of 18 to 6
The F-15's had a 20 mile restriction placed on thier AIM-120's and they had to keep illuminating the target when fired rather than use them in a fire and forget mode.
The IAF had the use of a simulated AWACS plane (An-32 Cline)
The USAF pilots were very impressed by the tactics the IAF used and how they were able to mix it up instead of using inflexable Soviet era tactics The IAF used a mixed fleet including Mig-21's and Mirage 2000's. The IAF did not use the newer Su-30MKI's instead used thier Su-30's equiped with AA-11's and AA-12's. The AA-12 gave the F-15 pilots the most problems as they did not know when they were being illuminated.
The complete story is here, but you have to be a subscriber to AWST.
Cope India
this topic is done with, ,to much dissection taken place already. Yes the match-up was not even,and if it was even, the would the USAF win hands down?
The answer is a big resounding DON'T KNOW and not a yes..
That's that!!!
Also its mighty stupid for the USAF to accept such uneven odds if they were sure of defeat just like all you ppl are.They must have agreed to it, if they thought there was something that could be gained out of it, esp wth all the publicity behind the exercise.
The USAF does NOT like a bad image and I know this for a fact.
If it was to woo the congress into providing funding for better planes, well then the US congress is smart enough to see that the match up was uneven, just like all the smart asses over here promptly pointed out.
If a bunch of ppl in a forum discussion can supposedly "see" the true nature of the exercise then im sure the US congress will not get conned into sanctioning funding for better planes if the F-15 is good enough for now. So that excuse is flawed also. Unless its that simple to fool the US congress!!
In any case, either the USAF was stupid, or the US congress is stupid and the whiners here the smartest defense analysts going around
OR
neither the US congress nor the USAF is stupid and the ppl who are whining over here need to really understand the purpose of the exercise because its them who are acting(not inherently ) stupid.
Now what do these so called 'analysts' who think themselves to be smarter than the US congress have to say to that??!!
That's that!!!
Also its mighty stupid for the USAF to accept such uneven odds if they were sure of defeat just like all you ppl are.They must have agreed to it, if they thought there was something that could be gained out of it, esp wth all the publicity behind the exercise.
The USAF does NOT like a bad image and I know this for a fact.
If it was to woo the congress into providing funding for better planes, well then the US congress is smart enough to see that the match up was uneven, just like all the smart asses over here promptly pointed out.
If a bunch of ppl in a forum discussion can supposedly "see" the true nature of the exercise then im sure the US congress will not get conned into sanctioning funding for better planes if the F-15 is good enough for now. So that excuse is flawed also. Unless its that simple to fool the US congress!!
In any case, either the USAF was stupid, or the US congress is stupid and the whiners here the smartest defense analysts going around
OR
neither the US congress nor the USAF is stupid and the ppl who are whining over here need to really understand the purpose of the exercise because its them who are acting(not inherently ) stupid.
Now what do these so called 'analysts' who think themselves to be smarter than the US congress have to say to that??!!
Originally posted by W4rl0rD
Guess how many F-15s have been shot down in actual air to air combat?
Answer - F-15 Kill Ratio 140-0
Su-30s,Su-27s,Mirages and MiG-21s fare a lot worse,just that i havent found info on them yet.
[edit on 18/11/04 by W4rl0rD]
Thats the reason why this exercise was an eye opener.
The F-15s have flown against inferior planes, and hence their "flawless" record. Moreover the pilots they flew against were extreremly inferior, and theres no doubt about that.
Im sure the Su-30s have a near flawless record. At least the MKIs do for sure
I bet if the F-15s were the latest models,had the latest radars,and had the fire-and-forget option the outcome of the exercise would be a lot
different,probably like what would happen in real life.
Originally posted by W4rl0rD
I bet if the F-15s were the latest models,had the latest radars,and had the fire-and-forget option the outcome of the exercise would be a lot different,probably like what would happen in real life.
What you bet on is inconsequential...That fac tis noboddy can say what would have happened if the two sides were evenly matched..maybe the results would've still been one sided, or maybe they would've been evenly matched. My arguement however is that the USAF didn't have to undergo the exercise with such uneven odds. The rubbish about "boosting" IAF morale and fooling congress are both majorly flawed.
The USAF itself has an image to maintain; its image just doesn't depend on blatant "best AF in the world" statements coming from posters in fora like this!!
Also if the whiners in the forum are able to see the true nature and objective of this exercise then im sure the US congress will see through it too!!
They are not going to spend the country's money on exotic aircraft if the F-15 is capable of doing its task.C'mon the US congress isn't filled with a bunch of loonies!!
Exactly,Maybe they were fooling around with the F-15 so they could get their hands on the latest F-22s,no need to make such a big deal of it,IAF
won,so what?Get over it.
Originally posted by W4rl0rD
Exactly,Maybe they were fooling around with the F-15 so they could get their hands on the latest F-22s,no need to make such a big deal of it,IAF won,so what?Get over it.
No, you don't get my point...the exercise couldn't have been boost funding for F-22s because the congress would IMHO see through that ploy anyhow. And if theUSAF wasn't trying to fool congress or bosst IAF morale, then why engage in a match up in which you're sure to lose??
Thats my question...
The USAF also has an image to maintain. An image muc h more precious than that of the IAF...
Again why would the USAF enegage in such an un even matchup unless they thought they could take on the odds??
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