About the dark side, how to work with it.

reply to post by 1littlewolf


Hi Little Wolf,

Thanks for your reply and for clearing up my perception of you. Also, applogies for the harsh reply, perhaps my dark side, the side which is in fear, reacted to your post. (I am of course not aware of this fear and am rather fearless in my perception of myself, I am a very strong she-wolf indeed, but perhaps in my effort to deny my weak side wich fears rejection and being misunderstood, lashed out at you.) Sorry again.

This Quote thingy is not working so swell for me at the moment, so I copy and paste your questions:

You: *So what exactly is the difference between the persona and the ego. Cos as I said before your description of the persona sounds very much like a negative aspect of the ego.

My understanding of life on earth as an experience of the soul may be extremely different from yours. So I can only tell you what my view is. Not what actually is.
My view is that the soul is that part that comes from a much higher spiritual region, it is in fact that part that is in His image. It is the God Particle in each of us, that is the soul. However, as the soul descends to the physical region it is joined by the mind in which the ego presides. The ego belongs to the physical world and is that part of every human (even new born babies) that develops the feeling of 'I am'. Not only 'I am' but also 'I am my world'. Without the ego the soul cannot be grounded on earth, as within the ego all aspects such as greed, pride, anger, attachment and lust flows from. Without these aspcets the soul cannot be captured or 'held' in the physical world. While we reincarnate from life to life, body stays behind, but ego does not seperate from the soul so that a baby is born with the same ego. Ego is almost like a permanent set of clothes that hides the beauty of the soul. Until the soul goes back to it's origin, at which time the ego is left behind again.

But, we are not talking about my blelief system. We are referring to Debbie Ford's book in which she describes the persona something in the line of the following:

Persona, ìis a much more temporary mask which is built up in this life, for this life only, and the formation of it depends very much on the circumstances that you are exposed to in childhood. Persona is not personality. Persona is that facade (or face) which we put out to the world in the hope that we will be accepted and loved. It is most often very artificial and a total illusion.

*Wouldn't the issue of how you handle a the issue of being called ugly, or chastising a child for calling someone ugly be secondary to the fact that the child itself believes someone to be 'ugly' in the first place just because he has a skin disorder?

I see what you are getting at. (Firstly, even 20 years ago, my fascination with the young child as a specie, my own lack of adhering to standard views and judgments, the adoration of my son, and the delight in the things he says made it impossible for me to even experience chastising as an option. The conductor was an older gent obviously with a great sense of humour, as we both laughed at the incident. I think he enjoyed it as much as I did. I did talk to him out in the corridor alone and he really did not feel hurt. His eyes told me that he was honest in telling me that he was not hurt.)

Nevertheless, a couple of years ago, while living in Italy, I studied 'The Aesthetic Subject'. I understand your confrontation and conflict with the concept of 'what is beautiful' , because it is necesarry to re-evaluate that which society has classified as a norm of what is beautiful, at the end of the subject I concluded (only in myself) that there must be a quality within man himself, an inherent aspect, which causes a natural affinity with things that are 'normally' beautiful, and aesthetically pleasing. If a person likes dogs, naturally you find a puppy most pleasing to look at. However much I rebeled agains 'them' telling me what should be good looking, at the end of the day, I had to admit to myself that most people (including me) do respond favourably to certain visual stimuli as pleasant or unpleasant. My little boy has never been told at that point that people with bad skin are ugly, that was merely his own natural reaction.

Also I would be very interested in how you handled the situation 21 years ago, and how you would handle it if you knew then what you know now.
Answered above.
How I would handle it? Exactly the same. I am very deeply in touch with my child side (no, not referring to that airy fairy pshyco term, but to the fact that I truly can relate to kids because I can instantanously think like they think, and therefore understand what it is they are experiencing, thinking, feeling. My friends are no longer amazed, but I am known for this ablility. I am total adult, but can read children better than a book. I can't explain.)

I would like to thank all the posters that showed understanding of this thread. There has been some excellent elaborations to it and I have starred them.

Debby Ford gives and example in her book that I would like to add.

She said that when she was confronted with the fact that every human has latent within them the potential to be all things, even the dark things, she could understand how she has greed, jelousy, anger and resentment in her but she could not see how she could have for instance a murderer in her.

Then she realised, that if she was kept in a dark cupboard between the ages of say 3 and 16, burnt with cigarettes, starved and abused, she could well see how some part of her will become a murderer.

Please don't misunderstand, she is not saying that murder is correct. NOT AT ALL. But through putting yourself in someone's shoes expands the range of possiblities. Only through true compassion can we see that all things are possible.

Once again, the essence of her message is that when we are able to recognise that we have all parts within us, then we become whole. It is called 'being human'. Which is beautiful.
It is not about going wild in the world and living out your darkest dendencies, it is about recognising and admitting to all of you.

Is that not also the way in which conflict can truly be resolved sometimes? If we allow ourselves to say for instance: "I admit that I lied to you about coming home late" then it is the starting point of commumication to resolve the issue. Whereas, if you still want the other person to think you are perfect, you will not open the opportunity for peace.

Peace, love and wholeness to all!

reply to post by UnlimitedSky


Isn't this exactly how the rich elite justify their greed and ruthlessness? It's okay to screw over your fellow man and not care about your neighbor, as long as you share your riches with your family and make them happy. Great message... not. This is how America got in this mess in the first place, because we started worshiping rich greedy, sadistic people labeling them "ambitious" and "motivated" etc as if they are so great, no matter how many people they run over on their way to the top. Greed has somehow become the most positive trait to have in this country. If you're not greedy and not willing to do whatever it takes to get to the top, you're just "lazy" and "worthless" according to rich elitists.

reply to post by darkest4


Your inpterpretation of the Opening Post is inacurate. Maybe read it again and see if anything makes more sense? It is not about living out the dark side.

Greed, pride, anger, violence, attachmet are all very destructive energies and not conducive to human growth. Nobody is saying anything els.

It is simply about admitting in yourself that you are not perfectly pure and good. It is simply about acknowledging your dark side to yourself.

Originally posted by UnlimitedSky
reply to post by darkest4

 

Greed, pride, anger, violence, attachmet are all very destructive energies and not conducive to human growth. Nobody is saying anything els.

Umm... I have said and am saying something else...

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but from my humble point of view, greed, pride, anger, violence, and all attachments are there to show me what is and what is not real. They help me to correct myself and show me what I am not. Quite conducive, I'd say, and a very significant part of my evolution as a human being.

And as said before, you don't have to act upon those dark energies, just acknowledge them.

The whole world recognizes the beautiful as the beautiful, yet this is only the ugly;
the whole world recognizes the good as the good, yet this is only the bad.

Thus Something and Nothing produce each other;
The difficult and the easy complement each other;
The long and the short off-set each other;
The high and the low incline towards each other;
Note and sound harmonize with each other;
Before and after follow each other.

Therefore the sage keeps to the deed that consists in taking no action and practises the teaching that uses no words. ~ Lao Tzu (Tao Te Ching)


Do not suppress any side of you, allow yourself to be.

And thats why i came to the argument I stated a few posts above.

is there any reward in human progression? or is the mortal life, no matter what occurs the most we can hope for

Well it's going to be a bit hard trying to condense the material to one post but I'll give a simplistic summary; Life is like a massive virtual video game created by a higher power which currently we cannot fully grasp at our level of development. What is guessed (as in intuition) is that everything belongs to the ONE, in that all are connected experiencing life subjectively yet interconnected as one entity at the same time. For what purpose? To experience joy and all emotions, and eventually to come to the realization that you are immortal and are the "programmer" of this large and intricate video game. I can go deeper, but I felt the need to add some context in order to answer your question.

Is there any reward in human progression. I would say yes, but look at it not as a strictly human experience. We are currently human, and maybe we were a different life form in a different planet at a different time. Or maybe not; maybe we are just connected to the human experience until we have surpassed (mentally and spiritually) the usefulness of this particular physical vehicle (body). Doesn't matter cause both are one and the same. Purpose IMO is to evolve physically (through mutation) and spiritually in order for us to experience life in a higher rank (density, dimension, frequency whatever). Reincarnation is key I believe as it the "veil of forgetfulness" in order for true growth to happen.

But this is where I believe most get confused in that it is all a game, though a very real one at that. The purpose of life is experience and through free will, the choice to become whatever role we want to become, whether victim, hero, villain, caretaker, or leader. As the gamer what is the purpose of playing games? Non gamers would say they are wasting their time. But the gamer knows the purpose is in the joy of becoming another character in a world where no matter what happens to that character, the person behind that game will continue on. It is in the joy of seeing what will happen next. If you can somehow imagine yourself as the pixel (character) without knowing that the person with the controller is really you then you can figure all that comes along with it (fear of those monster pixels that comes after you for example). What is the purpose? I cannot know for sure but my intuition says the purpose is to experience our joy in living and to choose our path (free will).

you think that we are not suppose to love our nature, and that all human progress to extend comfort and living is falling deeper into the trap of materiality? which will be snatched from our souls upon death.

Not sure I understand the question, but I think we are supposed to express our nature and to understand it, whether good or evil. Polarities exist in order to have contrast for you cannot know what skinny is until you have seen fat. You cannot know you are good (positive) unless you have experienced or witnessed evil (negative). I do not believe in any philosophy (or spiritual direction) that strictly embraces materialism. The negative polarity would certain fall under that area because it is a separation mode or vibe and materialism involves seeing this away from that. It also, when you get to the root of it is about personal comfort and satisfaction of base desires.

that is counter intuitive in the sense that all life which finds itself arise fights for that life relentlessly and sees its experience and mission of procreation as most valuable.

All life caught in the illusion of death and life without understanding of infinity and immortal nature of our true being. People are caught in a loop between a belief system that is authoritarian (do good or else, and obey) or pointlessness (atheism and oblivion). Both are traps in that they dictate what is possible and what is not. If you feel trapped because you must look over your shoulder for every action to know whether you will be blessed or exiled into eternal damnation, then there isn't much free will is there? Or if you are of the belief that life is meaningless because once you die, there is nothing more, what is the point? Both systems are traps because they limit you and your potential.

(Cont)

you think you have a soul which has done many things in past lives on other planets, and just some how got caught up in this mess here, and your philosophy is one of not being too interested in anything that is going on here because everything sucks and there must be better awaiting you?

Do I think my soul (or anyone's soul) has done many things in past lives on other planets? Yes, possibly. And on this planet as well. As far as being caught up in this mess, I disagree I think it's all a matter of perspective. You might see it that way (mess) I might not. Are there serious problems here, yes they are, but again if put in the larger whole picture perspective no matter what happens here everything will be ok because you are an immortal soul part of a larger entity playing the "game" of reality. If seen from that light, then this mess looks different doesn't it? If there are no true victims, and this is all for the purpose of growth to experience higher levels (like a game where you play level 2 constantly until you beat the final boss in order for you to reach level 3) and the joy of the process, then the view point of this world changes does it not?

I am not one of those that simply wants to progress, just like as a gamer I am not one of those that play through the game right away in order to beat it. As a gamer I like to search everything, enjoy everything and soak in everything to allow the experience to last as long as possible because I know that if I beat it too quickly then the game loses it's luster. However if things become repetitive then yes I will beat one level in order to experience the freshness of the next. Life is like that I believe, I am not here to experience "enlightment" I am here to experience and to chose. Enlightment will comes eventually because I believe in progression and reincarnation which when tacked in with infinity there is no choice (loosely speaking of course) but to experience enlightment sooner or later if that is your choice.

One should not rush past their level and wish to be somewhere or become something that they are not ready for or truly know if that's what they want. That takes you out of the present and also causes sadness and despair to your current treasure, which is your uniqueness and your "aliveness".

Sorry for the mountains of words, it is really hard putting what I believe in words and making it coherent. Please note that what is expressed is just simply my opinion and my belief. I am no more certain that it is the truth more than an atheist is that nothing is at the other side or a Christian believing in salvation through Christ. I do not fool myself into simply looking at life in a strict logical sense while ignoring my intuition and I also do not believe it is wise to just believe in intuition without using the mind and observing the world around you.

Originally posted by LajanAytik

Originally posted by UnlimitedSky
reply to post by darkest4

 

Greed, pride, anger, violence, attachmet are all very destructive energies and not conducive to human growth. Nobody is saying anything els.

Umm... I have said and am saying something else...

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but from my humble point of view, greed, pride, anger, violence, and all attachments are there to show me what is and what is not real. They help me to correct myself and show me what I am not. Quite conducive, I'd say, and a very significant part of my evolution as a human being.

And as said before, you don't have to act upon those dark energies, just acknowledge them.

well said. Almost by process of elimination you also find out through your actions what you are not.
Especially your reference to reality. There are few people that agree with me that greed, pride etc are simply not real. This is supported by the theory that only that which is real is everlasting and visa versa. This world is the biggest illusion ever! One day it will disintergrate. Again.

Originally posted by Chewingonmushrooms
(Cont)

you think you have a soul which has done many things in past lives on other planets, and just some how got caught up in this mess here, and your philosophy is one of not being too interested in anything that is going on here because everything sucks and there must be better awaiting you?

Do I think my soul (or anyone's soul) has done many things in past lives on other planets? Yes, possibly. And on this planet as well. As far as being caught up in this mess, I disagree I think it's all a matter of perspective. You might see it that way (mess) I might not. Are there serious problems here, yes they are, but again if put in the larger whole picture perspective no matter what happens here everything will be ok because you are an immortal soul part of a larger entity playing the "game" of reality. If seen from that light, then this mess looks different doesn't it? If there are no true victims, and this is all for the purpose of growth to experience higher levels (like a game where you play level 2 constantly until you beat the final boss in order for you to reach level 3) and the joy of the process, then the view point of this world changes does it not?

I am not one of those that simply wants to progress, just like as a gamer I am not one of those that play through the game right away in order to beat it. As a gamer I like to search everything, enjoy everything and soak in everything to allow the experience to last as long as possible because I know that if I beat it too quickly then the game loses it's luster. However if things become repetitive then yes I will beat one level in order to experience the freshness of the next. Life is like that I believe, I am not here to experience "enlightment" I am here to experience and to chose. Enlightment will comes eventually because I believe in progression and reincarnation which when tacked in with infinity there is no choice (loosely speaking of course) but to experience enlightment sooner or later if that is your choice.

One should not rush past their level and wish to be somewhere or become something that they are not ready for or truly know if that's what they want. That takes you out of the present and also causes sadness and despair to your current treasure, which is your uniqueness and your "aliveness".

Sorry for the mountains of words, it is really hard putting what I believe in words and making it coherent. Please note that what is expressed is just simply my opinion and my belief. I am no more certain that it is the truth more than an atheist is that nothing is at the other side or a Christian believing in salvation through Christ. I do not fool myself into simply looking at life in a strict logical sense while ignoring my intuition and I also do not believe it is wise to just believe in intuition without using the mind and observing the world around you.

edit on 13-1-2012 by Chewingonmushrooms because: (no reason given)

edit on 13-1-2012 by Chewingonmushrooms because: (no reason given)

okok, mans progression of technology and luxury and livelihood, mans potential to become immortal, or evolve his physical self drastically and adventure forth into the universe as
eternal man is based on the assumption that the soul experiencing life as the individual man is the most valuable thing in the universe without even contemplating it not being so, what im saying is, most people are not concerned with the after life, they strive in this one to thrive,to constantly strive towards growth,innovation,invention, progression, refinement,perfection,, you have to understand there is a difference in experience, partially to do with that of individual will partially because the fate of the individuals heritage, but you would say there is a difference between the thousands and thousands of people living in a 3rd world country scrounging for scraps of garbage to eat, and the thousands and thousands of mens realities which consist of driving their yacht to the golf course and eating 3 luxurious and hearty meals everyday, my problem is if the universe is sovereign, why cant a realistic way of life be obtained by all people, why is that not the goal to establish that order on this planet, if this is one of infinite "havens" for souls?

reply to post by ImaFungi


Honestly I do not know why. I can only guess that there is a reason for influences outside of our everyday awareness (both physical bodies and perhaps other) that prevent true dissemination of information. Knowledge is power and those "phifers" (as in Matrix) that prefer the materialistic riches that nourish the physical but whither the spiritual will do what is needed to keep it that way.

But again it goes back to the larger picture in that all the dynamics that make up current 3rd dimensional earth life is that way for a greater purpose. As a gamer (again going back to that analogy) who would want to play a game where there is no action, and there are no enemies or levels to gain? People that believe they have only one life to live (certain religions like Judo-Christian-Islamic root and those that believe in Atheism for instance) will live their lives mostly on fear, fear of losing that life to oblivion or in losing that life and not being a perfected being (without sin) else they go to hell. They fear life moreso than fearing death if that makes any sense.

My beliefs are not set in stone and I try to be open and flexible to new information. Personally I believe no one holds all Truth. Truth IMO is impossible to truly grasp at our level of development, similar to an ant trying to understand calculus. Advancement through evolution (both physical and spiritual) will reveal bits of the puzzle I am sure.

reply to post by Chewingonmushrooms


In the real world scenario I am depicting, the world of systems and works for monies and goods, those who have collected vast amounts of wealth,power, control, authority, are winning the game, and programming it, they are playing everyone . The reason for the injustice of the world should not be blamed on outside sources, if men did not do the things they did, the things they did would not be done, life is will driven, the idea of the soul is synonymous with the physical execution of action performed by the individuals will.

i just dont like the excuse everything is how it should be, when it has been the individual will of men over milenia and beyond, who have shaped the now into what it is, and that the will and reason of the majority of people on the planet is passive, easily persuaded, and trampled by the men in power and control... if i thought the men in power and control of the direction of humanity, the worlds resources, and of the average humans mind were innocent and good intentioned, I would be ignorantly bliss somewhere...

Originally posted by ImaFungi
reply to post by Chewingonmushrooms

 

In the real world scenario I am depicting, the world of systems and works for monies and goods, those who have collected vast amounts of wealth,power, control, authority, are winning the game, and programming it, they are playing everyone . The reason for the injustice of the world should not be blamed on outside sources, if men did not do the things they did, the things they did would not be done, life is will driven, the idea of the soul is synonymous with the physical execution of action performed by the individuals will.

I just thought I should point out that I am not arguing otherwise. You are speaking "in game mechanics" and you are right. I am speaking about outside of that encompassing the whole. They are different levels of thought and I am more than impassioned at the "wrongs" committed in the name of selfishness. We are speaking strictly apples and oranges here though when it comes to the philosophical reasons for doing so and the reasons for it.

One is based upon my personal belief of a larger reality, and the other is based on real world observations in a 3rd dimensional sense. One can be proven rather easily and the other is based upon a personal belief system. You asked me a question relating to a specific subject and I answered as such. If you want to speak about what is happening in our world in a way we can all verify then that's a different matter altogether isn't it?

i just dont like the excuse everything is how it should be, when it has been the individual will of men over milenia and beyond, who have shaped the now into what it is, and that the will and reason of the majority of people on the planet is passive, easily persuaded, and trampled by the men in power and control... if i thought the men in power and control of the direction of humanity, the worlds resources, and of the average humans mind were innocent and good intentioned, I would be ignorantly bliss somewhere

Nor should you like the excuse, because I don't either nor have I ever said that or implied that. Things are because they are, there is nothing "as should be" about it. It is neutral, whatever which way you want to judge it is up to you, that is your free will. I am sure I can give countless examples of all the horrors done in the name of man, and I am sure we can agree that they are negative in bringing pain and hardship because we are within the "game's" rules. But our opinions of it are still relative or subjective to our experience of it.

The rest of the post sounds like a rant, and you seem angry and I don't blame you. Do I believe humans can do better? Yes. Do I believe we are controlled? Yes. Am I aware that power and influence is has been consolidated? Yes. This is real world, what I experience and most others experience.

Now if we are talking about what we believe rests outside of it, and what our particular belief of "why" then that's separate from the discussion isn't it?

reply to post by Chewingonmushrooms


Oh but as many other worldly beliefs you may have, do you not have any respect or admiration for the realness of this one? do you have no family or loved ones? thats what i mean you have no stake in this planet and its ways? you are removed,

im saying how is the objective reality of all that goes on planet earth now, not relevant to the totality of reality, especially being that your totality of reality is grounded here on this planet earth, now.

reply to post by Chewingonmushrooms



If you knew yourself as a soul, who as experienced the infinite splendor and lovingness of creation, you have no motivation to place your stamp of disapproval over this lowly realm? question and redesign the game?

Originally posted by ImaFungi
reply to post by Chewingonmushrooms

 

Oh but as many other worldly beliefs you may have, do you not have any respect or admiration for the realness of this one? do you have no family or loved ones? thats what i mean you have no stake in this planet and its ways? you are removed,

im saying how is the objective reality of all that goes on planet earth now, not relevant to the totality of reality, especially being that your totality of reality is grounded here on this planet earth, now.

edit on 13-1-2012 by ImaFungi because: (no reason given)

First of all there is no such thing as objective reality. Second of all because I can see past worldly thought does not mean I am not a part of it nor does it mean I do not care what happens in it. I think you are misunderstanding me. I am not "in the air" so to speak and are actually quite grounded. I do not spend my day time in meditation looking to seek enlightment from "this illusion". It seems to me you want to pigeonhole me into some sort of New Agey pattern which I don't appreciate. If you have questions about what I believe feel free to ask, but assume nothing.

Originally posted by ImaFungi
reply to post by Chewingonmushrooms

 

If you knew yourself as a soul, who as experienced the infinite splendor and lovingness of creation, you have no motivation to place your stamp of disapproval over this lowly realm? question and redesign the game?

That is your viewpoint of it not mine. If you read my posts I said I believe the purpose of life is to experience, to have joy and to learn. Never did I say "hey life's a game, do what you want because nothing matters, you are an immortal soul", but it seems to me that that is how you took it.

I do not believe that at all, and if you knew me as a poster you would know that I care pretty deeply about this planet and all that goes along with it. Again you are speaking apples and oranges. If you want to have that conversation and speak about shared experiences and issues then we can go there. However that is not how our conversation started in the first place.

You've touched into explaining what I would call "the Game". We all play the game, and I feel like Im the only one who isn't. I was always the honest one, and sometimes as you might imagine that got me into some pretty sticky situations.

reply to post by Chewingonmushrooms


I am very sorry to have disrespected you, sincerely. I was just a bit forward and passionate and prying,

reply to post by andersensrm


Yes I understand how you feel. In a larger reality (IMO) we are actors in a play and have confused that play for the ultimate reality. Make no mistake about it the world you live in now is "real", at least your experience of it. It is also personal with your identity attached it you. The other poster makes some valid observations in that if people just see it is a game then they do not take responsibility for it's direction or it's failures. That's why it becomes almost a paradox in that it is almost as if you are dealing in two different realities. You cannot ignore one or the other as they both exist. I rather be the ignorant one (as in ignorance is bliss) and be impassioned for my love of humanity and the planet I live in, than be aware and reject it altogether for some perceived greater reality. The whole point IMO is to connect into the matrix and experience.

That being said, it's good to have some context to know that there is infact greater realities which we not be aware of, and with that, not fear death.

Originally posted by ImaFungi
reply to post by Chewingonmushrooms

 

I am very sorry to have disrespected you, sincerely. I was just a bit forward and passionate and prying,

No worries man, and you didn't disrespect me just misunderstood me a bit

I like your passion and personally would take a million of you over a billion of yogis perclaiming enlightenment (but completely ungrounded).