In what order will these men be saved?

In what order do these men get accepted into heaven. I am leaving it this way because I don’t want to have anyone feel like I was judging these men.

A – There is a non religious man, who knows that God is real but has never really chosen a path. He knows that love is the best way, so he is generous, kind, and loving. He has made mistakes in his life but he has always felt bad and tried not to make those mistakes again.

B- There is a Muslim man who has faith in God, believes that every word in the Koran is the truth. He too knows that love is the best way. So even though there are some difficult messages in the Koran he interprets it from a loving viewpoint. Because of this he also is generous, kind, and loving. He too has made some mistakes and learned from them.

C-There is another Muslim who has also read the Koran. He too believes that every word is true. He is not a bad man to other believers, but to those who don’t believe in the Koran he treats them as infidels. He has for wives and treats them with little respect because based on his interpretation he has this right. He believes that he has been good and that his actions are justified by his belief in the one true God.

D-There is a Hindu, that has faith in many God’s but one supreme God. He also has faith that every word is true. He also knows that love is the best way. He is generous, kind and loving. He also acknowledges that he has done wrong and learns from his mistakes.

E- There is a Christian man, who also believes that his God is the true God but he doesn’t believe that his book is sacred, only the teaching of one man can be believed. Because of this one man he knows that love is the best way. He scoffs at others who have faith in the whole book. He often times tells non Christians they are going to hell. He has been an average man with average flaws but he believes that Grace has already saved him.

F- There is another Christian. This man believes that every word is true in the bible. He knows that love is the way because this is what he has heard about Christ. This man wishes that all men would go to heaven but he tells all non Christians that they are going to hell. He believes that what he is saying is true and since he has heard others say this he is rather just repeating what he heard. He has not read the book for himself so he is just counting on others for this interpretation. He has been generous, kind, and loving in all other areas of his life though. He also believes that Grace has already saved him.

G- Finally there is yet another Christian man. He also believes that every word in the bible is true. He studies the bible for himself. He listens to others views and compares them with the bible to find out what is true. He has realized through his reading that love is the only way. He believes that Jesus is the way to God. When he meets non unbeliever he pours love out on them and prays that they be saved also. He once was a sinner but then he received Grace. He was so excited that he was forgiven that he vowed to God that he would try his best to never sin again because of this gift. He went out teaching both believers and unbelievers the ways of God, and hoped that all would listen and be saved.

For those who might stumble across this thread I am a Christian. I believe every word in the bible from Creation to Revelation. I don’t have any issue with a young earth or creationism and believe that God loved mankind enough to simply tell the truth. I am not posting this thread so much to cause a debate about right or wrong. My attempt is to call everyone, especially Christians to live better lives. If one would let love guide them through the choices above the choices would be obvious. But many condemn those who don’t believe in their faith to hell. This is simply not loving, I know because the condemnation always causes hate.

Love always leads to love. If it doesn't make the othe person love you, you still walk away in love.

Everyone is right, their is only one path. Love. And one God who is Love. I do believe that the bible and Jesus provide a perfect path to love and salvation. I do believe that at the door to heaven Jesus will be there. No one will see the father without going through Jesus who stands at the door. I do believe that accepting Christ into your life and accepting Grace is the only way to become born again and to receive the Holy Spirit. But I also believe and so does Christ, that all will be judge and that he is a fair judge.

I consider myself "G" if you haven’t figured this out so if you actually feel the need to rank the ones above leave me off the list because I know that I am the least of God’s servants. And if not for the Grace of God I could not be what I am today.

You forgot one:

H) A non-Abrahamic person who has devoted his/her life to a moral code, that doesn’t, and maybe never has, followed any one particular “religion,” who tries to help others as best as he/she can. This person has an open mind to the ways of the universe and has come to realize that he/she doesn’t need to be saved by God, that he/she is in fact one of many “gods” as he/she generates reality with the mind. There is no need to wait for death or judgment for heaven to be revealed, when heaven can be here and now reflected in the consequences of our actions.

Though the differences are vast, the constant still remains...

Love.

Jesus never said believe the bible. He said he is Gods son accept him as your lord and savior and you shall be spared to live in eternal damnation. Where bible thumpers pull the rest from beats the hell outta me.

Originally posted by LongbottomLeaf
Jesus never said believe the bible. He said he is Gods son accept him as your lord and savior and you shall be spared to live in eternal damnation. Where bible thumpers pull the rest from beats the hell outta me.

Jesus quotes from the Old Testament and claims that he is the promised messiah. And the New Testament is written about him. Not sure what you don't understand.

reply to post by sacgamer25


I cannot answer this question without knowing the following:

A) Who or what is saving these men?

B) Who or what are they being saved from?

Originally posted by FugitiveSoul
You forgot one:

H) A non-Abrahamic person who has devoted his/her life to a moral code, that doesn’t, and maybe never has, followed any one particular “religion,” who tries to help others as best as he/she can. This person has an open mind to the ways of the universe and has come to realize that he/she doesn’t need to be saved by God, that he/she is in fact one of many “gods” as he/she generates reality with the mind. There is no need to wait for death or judgment for heaven to be revealed, when heaven can be here and now reflected in the consequences to our actions.

Though the differences are vast, the constant still remains...

Love.

edit on 5-1-2012 by FugitiveSoul because: (no reason given)

You know I thought about adding the agnostic and the non believer but I felt the first example probably had them covered. I guess I could have added Buddhist too but the thread would have gotten too long. The main point of most of my threads is a call to Christians.

Much of what I post is done as a sort of personal research project that I am doing on my faith and love.

reply to post by sacgamer25


A B G and H go at the same time. For the rest, its as much of a matter of "if" as "when". However, its not my judgement that counts. Regardless, thats strictly my opinion. Ps, im a Christian.

Originally posted by budaruskie
reply to post by sacgamer25

 

I cannot answer this question without knowing the following:

A) Who or what is saving these men?

B) Who or what are they being saved from?

It was about who would get into heaven and what order. Saved meaning saved by God.

Originally posted by TomServo
reply to post by sacgamer25

 

A B G and H go at the same time. For the rest, its as much of a matter of "if" as "when". However, its not my judgement that counts. Regardless, thats strictly my opinion. Ps, im a Christian.

It is so nice to hear another Christian that understands the message of our saviour.

Personally I include D because of Gandhi, and I don't know a lot about Hinduism.

Originally posted by sacgamer25

Originally posted by budaruskie
reply to post by sacgamer25

 

I cannot answer this question without knowing the following:

A) Who or what is saving these men?

B) Who or what are they being saved from?

It was about who would get into heaven and what order. Saved meaning saved by God.

Well, with all due respect I do not know what the criteria for getting into heaven are. I've been told this and that and Jesus wants me to believe in him but in the end I don't believe any of it. In my opinion, this is like asking me which backstreet boy some random 13 year old girl thinks is the hottest...it really doesn't matter and there isn't any way to tell without asking her. I know it sounds like I'm peeing in your cheerios but really I'm not.

Which one of these people should you teach your children to be most like?

Oh yeah, and I still don't know the answer to either of my questions.

Good meditation. Thanks.

I believe God is Love, too. So I've always reckoned that wherever there's love expressed or acted upon, God is present.

Someone going to Hell? How the hell would I know?

Peace.

reply to post by sacgamer25


There is a simple answer.

John 10

22 Then came the Festival of Dedication at Jerusalem. It was winter, 23 and Jesus was in the temple courts walking in Solomon’s Colonnade. 24 The Jews who were there gathered around him, saying, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Messiah, tell us plainly.”

25 Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”

The key in this is that we recognize the Word and Voice of Jesus. This presents the truth that we hear his Word and receive the message. Not only do we receive it, we apply it. The other truth here is that Jesus is one with the Father. We are not able to gain union with God on our own. Works will fail us in our present state. Christ atonement from His blood and sacrifice makes the way. He was the firstfruits of a new man. He was the first Adam and the last. In other words, when Adam has moved on from the cycle of rebirth (Baptism into the water of reality), a new man will emerge. Christ was the firstfruits. We will be reborn into new life from this process.

The question now becomes: Who are His sheep? We can see from Matthew 3. Baptism is the process of rebirth. But first, read this other key set of verses:

Psalm 37

27 Depart from evil and do good,
So you will abide forever.
28 For the LORD loves justice
And does not forsake His godly ones;
They are preserved forever,
But the descendants of the wicked will be cut off.
29 The righteous will inherit the land
And dwell in it forever.

Matthew 3 gives away the key. John refused baptism to the rulers. The people were welcomed. What was John's purpose in preparing the way? Baptism.

7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming for baptism, he said to them, “You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 Therefore bear fruit in keeping with repentance; 9 and do not suppose that you can say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham for our father’; for I say to you that from these stones God is able to raise up children to Abraham. 10 The axe is already laid at the root of the trees; therefore every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

11 “As for me, I baptize you [g]with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. 12 His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

The sheep will be taken through the trial of fire. The Shepherd will lead them by His Voice. After this, the descendants of the wicked will be cut off. Remember, "You must be born again." God is long-suffering with us over many generations. We either hear the voice or we refuse it. Seek God now and know the voice.

reply to post by sacgamer25


I don't understand what you mean by "in what order". I know you are asking who will be saved, but I don't understand what you mean by order.

I also wanted to answer the part about what order. This is revealed in the parable of the vineyard in Matthew 20. The parable is about workers in the vineyard (Garden / Earth) that are there to assist with the harvest. This is symbolism for souls on earth. The workers assist in helping raise the crop. The fruit is what is accomplished by the soul in the wilderness of life. At the end, all are paid the same wage. Here is the key to knowing which sheep hear the voice first and which ones hear last.

13 “But he answered one of them, ‘I am not being unfair to you, friend. Didn’t you agree to work for a denarius? 14 Take your pay and go. I want to give the one who was hired last the same as I gave you. 15 Don’t I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?’

16 “So the last will be first, and the first will be last.”

In other words, those who put themselves first in pride will be last to escape the fire (to be paid what is due). Those who put themselves last in humility will be first. Rank is important in God's kingdom. All beings are ranked. Some will perish. Specifically, those who mistreat others for gain or pleasure. The leaders are often cited as the goats instead of the sheep.

reply to post by sacgamer25


What happens to a person who is unselfish, loving, and does what they can to help everyone else at an enormous personal cost...but doesn't believe in the Bible because its just a book written by men in an age where virtually no one could read or write? Does he/she get saved, even though they don't believe in the notion of "heaven"?

Originally posted by SuperiorEd
I also wanted to answer the part about what order. This is revealed in the parable of the vineyard in Matthew 20. The parable is about workers in the vineyard (Garden / Earth) that are there to assist with the harvest. This is symbolism for souls on earth. The workers assist in helping raise the crop. The fruit is what is accomplished by the soul in the wilderness of life. At the end, all are paid the same wage. Here is the key to knowing which sheep hear the voice first and which ones hear last.

13 “But he answered one of them, ‘I am not being unfair to you, friend. Didn’t you agree to work for a denarius? 14 Take your pay and go. I want to give the one who was hired last the same as I gave you. 15 Don’t I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?’

16 “So the last will be first, and the first will be last.”

In other words, those who put themselves first in pride will be last to escape the fire (to be paid what is due). Those who put themselves last in humility will be first. Rank is important in God's kingdom. All beings are ranked. Some will perish. Specifically, those who mistreat others for gain or pleasure. The leaders are often cited as the goats instead of the sheep.

edit on 5-1-2012 by SuperiorEd because: (no reason given)

I understand that message but would also like to add that those workers were not working because they kept saying in their respective groups "no man has hired us", meaning they could have worked earlier if they were there earlier. But, they get the same reward, because the 11th hour was approaching, and that was crunch time for the land owner.

If a Muslim comes to Christ moments before an agnostic, we have to be happy for both, because the angels in heaven celebrate over one who come in. We just can't know the moment it will happen, we just have to accept it when it does happen. And when it does, we are to be happy for them.

reply to post by WarminIndy

I understand that message but would also like to add that those workers were not working because they kept saying in their respective groups "no man has hired us", meaning they could have worked earlier if they were there earlier. But, they get the same reward, because the 11th hour was approaching, and that was crunch time for the land owner.

If a Muslim comes to Christ moments before an agnostic, we have to be happy for both, because the angels in heaven celebrate over one who come in. We just can't know the moment it will happen, we just have to accept it when it does happen. And when it does, we are to be happy for them.

Yes. You are bringing out another aspect of this. The salvation comes at the moment that the heart yields to faith and away from pride. It is 11:59 from what I can see.

Originally posted by SuperiorEd

There is a simple answer.

The key in this is that we recognize the Word and Voice of Jesus. This presents the truth that we hear his Word and receive the message. Not only do we receive it, we apply it. The other truth here is that Jesus is one with the Father. We are not able to gain union with God on our own. Works will fail us in our present state. Christ atonement from His blood and sacrifice makes the way. He was the firstfruits of a new man. He was the first Adam and the last. In other words, when Adam has moved on from the cycle of rebirth (Baptism into the water of reality), a new man will emerge. Christ was the firstfruits. We will be reborn into new life from this process.

edit on 5-1-2012 by SuperiorEd because: (no reason given)

There are two baptisms yes, but there is only one baptism. For Christians being baptized by water is like a Jew being circumcised. Was it God’s command yes. Did it promise them heaven? No

Here is what the one baptism is.
Ephesians 4:4-5 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

• Matt. 3:11, "As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire."

• Mark 1:8, "I baptized you with water; but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit."

• Luke 3:16, "John answered and said to them all, 'As for me, I baptize you with water; but One is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to untie the thong of His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire."

• John 1:33, "And I did not recognize Him, but He who sent me to baptize in water said to me, "He upon whom you see the Spirit descending and remaining upon Him, this is the one who baptizes in the Holy Spirit."

• Acts 1:5, "for John baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."

• Acts 11:16, "And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, 'John baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit."

Do you know who Jesus baptizes and doesn’t? For it appears that one is an outward sign but only the one Jesus gives makes a man born again.

What is born again.
Colossians 2:11-13 In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,

So to be born again is a cutting away of flesh. You know that I have heard many non believers NDE experiences is one of love. So you see all of us are cut away from our flesh at some point, but God chooses to circumcise some from their flesh before death. Now I am not saying that this is the correct interpretation but since it is a possible interpretation I continue to stand firm that all things are possible for God. And that Jesus is a righteous judge.

My interpretation does not contradict these verses. Does yours?

Revelation 20:12-14 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.

Romans 14:12-13 So then each of us will give an account of himself to God. Therefore let us not pass judgment on one another any longer, but rather decide never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of a brother.

1 Peter 1:17 And if you call on him as Father who judges impartially according to each one's deeds, conduct yourselves with fear throughout the time of your exile,

Hebrews 9:27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,

The law of Christ is love; we all know that we are to follow love. The choice to follow love is a good path. The choice to follow Christ leads to the perfect path. One can only be born again in this world if one follows the path of Christ. Other than judgment for all men, we do not know what happens after death.

If I tell an unbeliever you are going to hell, do we not separate in hate? If I tell an unbeliever I pray for you do we not come together in love? If we leave in hate has this person heard the loving words of Christ? If we leave in hate has not the door been shut? Who shut this door? If we leave in prayer and love, the door remains open and the unbeliever has indeed heard the word of God.

Originally posted by WarminIndy
reply to post by sacgamer25

 

I don't understand what you mean by "in what order". I know you are asking who will be saved, but I don't understand what you mean by order.

I was kind of taking the universalism approach and asking for a kind of ranking system. If you truly don't belive that some will make it that is fine too.

No I dont believe in universalism.

Originally posted by WarminIndy

I understand that message but would also like to add that those workers were not working because they kept saying in their respective groups "no man has hired us", meaning they could have worked earlier if they were there earlier. But, they get the same reward, because the 11th hour was approaching, and that was crunch time for the land owner.

If a Muslim comes to Christ moments before an agnostic, we have to be happy for both, because the angels in heaven celebrate over one who come in. We just can't know the moment it will happen, we just have to accept it when it does happen. And when it does, we are to be happy for them.

We also don't know if this can't happen at the point of death before judgment. The bible is kind of silent on this one. But again because I am told not to judge I hold that all is possible for God.