The Economy: How Politics is the Heroin of an Organic System

There is no conservative and liberal way to get to the moon, so therefore science should not be politicized. And, in my opinion, economics is a science, and there should be no conservative or liberal way of fixing the economy. Only conservative and liberal ways of hurting it.

When we inject politics into economics, something that is required to be organic and apolitical by nature(since all people are the economy not just one party or another), we create imbalances that run far deeper than the intent of the agenda would have the proponent believe.

There's a reason why I look at economies as organic. And see free market economics as the only method by which to allow an economy to naturally grow, be fed by it's participants, and expel waste(excesses) by natural market perturbations.

I feel the same about scientific issues. If people took this approach, as though economies were, in fact, enormous living beings, then we would take more care in not injecting it with the heroin that is political ideology. No matter where one might stand.

I'm very conservative. You may be very liberal. That's fine. But do you really believe that either ideologies could control an organic mass such as a complex economy? I don't.

This is not to say that we shouldn't put some regulation on market practices. Every human being lives by a moral code of conduct and is required, by conscience and decency, to follow certain societal constraints on their conduct. Such is also true for large organic entities like entire economies. However, if one constrains a human being to such a point that he/she is unable to move, to flourish, to learn, to dream, to invent, then the human being become depressed, and even suicidal.

I believe the same happens to economies when the political ideologies that govern the minds of people are imposed on economies overall.

Just a thought for a fruitful discussion.

reply to post by projectvxn


Basic economics is an organic thing. The only problem is, that the world economy is anything but basic. Too many politically created storm drains, draining everything in the world economy to a few places. These political created problem perpetuate themselves over time, until eventually we get where we are now.

reply to post by Evolutionsend


This is true.

However they suffer the same ills.

Having societal constraints on the conduct of markets is one thing. Shackling markets is another. I feel the same way about how governments around the world shackle their people, and hence shackled their own economies.

I think ego has a lot to do with it. But at this point it would be debating the strength of the heroin injected.

reply to post by projectvxn


Quick question about the thread title. Did you mean to say heroine(female lead of a story) or heroin(a drug)?

reply to post by TsukiLunar


Hah!

Thank you for catching that.

Any comment on the meat of the topic?

reply to post by projectvxn


The thing is, the people that do well as individuals find ways to exploit an honest system. The only way to deal with dishonesty, which is the problem, is to crush it. The kinds of corporations that we see nowadays were never intended to exist. They may get around the legal documents which were intended to stop certain things, but they're not complying in spirit, which pisses people off. They look to the government to fix this, because they're really the only ones that can, without a blood bath. It stops being organic when people start complying by the "book" rather than in spirit. The people feel that the book needs to be rewritten to suit a more modern time. I agree with them.

reply to post by Evolutionsend


I tend to agree as well.

However, as I said, people in society are generally governed by laws that constrain their conduct.

As such, companies should also have to abide by the same rules, and their benefactors(CEO's and other corporate officers) should be held to account.

reply to post by projectvxn


I feel that we've crossed the threshold to a point where corporations are doing more to govern us as citizens, than we can do to govern them. We're partly to blame, but they're also in the meat of the problem. We look to our government for change, and we try to vote that change into office, but it feels like our choices as far as who we can vote for are very limited by big business, so they're protected.

reply to post by Evolutionsend


Politics, generally speaking, created the mess.

So why on Earth would one assume that politics could fix it?

I think it would be more beneficial if individuals from all walks of life, those of us who see the imbalances, got out there and changed the economy for ourselves by doing what Americans do better than anyone. Start businesses, innovate, and create wealth.

reply to post by projectvxn


The people are supposed to be in control of the politicians running things. They just seem to forget a few things at times. Number one, what is best for me is not always what is best for my country. Number two, one thing that you really care about happening, can cost more bad things happening than our country needs. Always look at a politicians position on ALL issues, not just the one you really care about.

Sadly the sheeple are no longer in control, assuming they ever were. One of the basic ideas of democracy is the ability to vote for real change. We can't seem to get that done nowadays.

Innovation tends to bring wealth to one small sector, because everyone is also greedy. Again, thinking about what's best for them, and not anyone else. I think most innovators first priority is to avoid having an innovation stolen by someone else. It's really very nasty.

reply to post by Evolutionsend


I disagree.

When was the last time, before any of this mess, that we had the media talking about economics in a manner that acknowledges how people affect it and how people are affect it by it?

When was the last time Americans in general truly questioned the role of government in their lives and in the economy?

I have NEVER seen in this country pay the kind of attention that is being paid to these issues. I believe there is more awareness now than there ever has been.

I feel far more optimistic about the future of the United States than many here and for good reasons.

Innovation is a HUMAN trait. As much as greed.

If you don't feel you can innovate anything then you won't.

Remember, God gave us reason not religion. We have the ability to think and view complexities in ways that brings order out of otherwise seeming chaos.

Government,corporations, the economy are the creations of man so they reflect all our goodness and all our evilness and some people have sought to legislate morality,ethics and wealth from that organic wealth creation machine which is where the problem is.

The problem is the people themselves and the people apparently don't trust themselves or the things they create so they push for someone else to call all the shots and the problem compounded itself because people don't know when to quit they don't have enough so they keep legislating and thats turns into a political ideology.

The Danger to the economy is the people but the driving force for the people is the economy it is a symbiotic relationship that reaches a point you reach what we know as the current state of the union. Man is greedy by nature he keeps wanting more and more but at the same time he keeps legislating more and more the way i see it if anyone truly believes in a organic free market he wouldn't touch it.

The economy is a continual wealth and destruction and transferrence process but enters man again with all his legislation which turns that organic entity in to something totally inorganic much like the constitution the idea of it was great the creation of it was great but the execution is severely lacking.

Anything man touches even tho he can create such beauty his own greed and lust for power will absolutely corrupt everything absolutely. For anything to truly change government or his creations he must first change themselves and that journey starts from within it can not ever be legislated no matter how many times he will try he will always fail until he recognizes that he is part of the problem.

that's my 2 cents take it for whatever it's worth

reply to post by projectvxn


I think the innovators feel that a corporation will just steal anything they might innovate. It's been proven a number of times in this country that an innovator is not likely to maintain control over his/her idea. The person with the money for production is the one that benefits as far as innovation is concerned.

reply to post by Evolutionsend


Or that government may legislate the fruits of their labor away.

Anyone serious about innovating in the market shouldn't be overly fearful of anything.
Fear doesn't create. It stagnates and retreats.

Defeatism is NOT a policy worth pursuing.

Edit:

If you sell your invention or innovation on the open market you are giving license to the entity or person who buys it to make a profit from it. I don't see what is wrong with that.

reply to post by projectvxn

There is no conservative and liberal way to get to the moon, so therefore science should not be politicized.

I absolutely agree with this.

economics is a science, and there should be no conservative or liberal way of fixing the economy. Only conservative and liberal ways of hurting it.

I dont know about economics being a science or not, but there isn't only one way to fix the economy. Some ideas on how to fix it clash with political beliefs. So people whine and nothing gets done. Like you said, that hurts it. Really, what we should do is keep politics out of it and go about it in a realistic manner. Like you said.

When we inject politics into economics, something that is required to be organic and apolitical by nature(since all people are the economy not just one party or another), we create imbalances that run far deeper than the intent of the agenda would have the proponent believe.

Nothing really i disagree with here. I would like to add that we do tend to avoid the problems or spend time blaming when this obviously helps zilch.

There's a reason why I look at economies as organic. And see free market economics as the only method by which to allow an economy to naturally grow, be fed by it's participants, and expel waste(excesses) by natural market perturbations.

I like a free market, i really do. As long as it doesn't turn against you, its a good system. However, it seems to me it is turning against us in this case. Whether its outsourcing, illegal immigrants, debt, or just plain greed- the fact is something is out of balance. That is the biggest downfall of a Free Market, it can fluctuate wildly depending on circumstances. There is no real control here.

I feel the same about scientific issues. If people took this approach, as though economies were, in fact, enormous living beings, then we would take more care in not injecting it with the heroin that is political ideology. No matter where one might stand.

Nice way of looking at it. Even if i disagreed on the metaphor(which i dont) there would still be no relevant argument.

I'm very conservative. You may be very liberal. That's fine. But do you really believe that either ideologies could control an organic mass such as a complex economy? I don't.

I dont either. Rather than the word 'control', I would use 'change'.

This is not to say that we shouldn't put some regulation on market practices.

Regulation is your friend. As long as it addresses a problem.

Every human being lives by a moral code of conduct and is required, by conscience and decency, to follow certain societal constraints on their conduct. Such is also true for large organic entities like entire economies.

However, humans can 'chose' when to follow their 'moral code'. Except for regulations regarding how businesses operate, a free market has no set 'rules'. It can go up and down for very convoluted reasons. It can not 'chose' when to go up or down.

However, if one constrains a human being to such a point that he/she is unable to move, to flourish, to learn, to dream, to invent, then the human being become depressed, and even suicidal.

Well ya, but a 'human' left unrestrained by the social moral or laws might, well, you know... I guess my point is moderation. A lot of restrictions for no good reason just does not make practical sense. But no restrictions at all is even worse. Moderation.

I would say, that it comes down to the fact that there are too many regulations that are patently useless. While not enough that actually address real problems. I guess.

reply to post by TsukiLunar


I think I hear an echo.

Indeed, thank you for your contribution. it was a very good plain English breakdown of what I was trying to get across.

reply to post by projectvxn


The problem is that no one has to buy anything from you, they can and will take it.

That holds true to anything really, money is power, and everything is for sale.

reply to post by projectvxn

I think I hear an echo.

Hmm, I guess i did repeat a lot of what you were saying. Sorry about that. Well anyway, it was a good OP. So i will proceed to give you a Star AND a Flag.

Lucky you.

Originally posted by Evolutionsend
reply to post by projectvxn

 

The problem is that no one has to buy anything from you, they can and will take it.

That holds true to anything really, money is power, and everything is for sale.

edit on 17-10-2011 by Evolutionsend because: (no reason given)

Really now?

Are you telling me that theft is the only way?

That is not true. It's a bogus argument.

MOST people who start businesses and offer products that people want to buy are successful. If people don't want to buy your product then it isn't successful. If someone steals your product there are laws and courts to deal with that and in many cases the plaintiff wins the case.

The system isn't perfect, but please point to one that is.

Here is my take on the current situation that the evolution of humanity has lead to...
The evolution of a human being has developed to a point where we are able to consciously determine a future outcome (with increasingly more and more accuracy). Therefore, as an inevitable consequence, greed ensues. Don’t be alarmed however, good news is afoot!

This ability to influence our own future has lead to a point, where humanity, around the world, has realised that the current path we are undertaking is a future that they do not like. In other words, humanity has evolved to a higher point, where belief and faith in technology, science, and human consciousness exists in harmony all over the globe, to create a unified planet, where life can thrive.

We all know the symptoms of the current predicament we find ourselves in. Poverty, mistreatment, stress, neglect, disease and greed, to name a few... they have been mentioned before in previous discussions so I will not delve into them much here. I am prepared however, to suggest that these detrimental parts of humanity are inevitable outcomes of the evolutionary nature of this universe.

It is our nature to question; the very purpose of the conscious is to find meaning. In whatever way this may manifest, it is a directly observable action within human beings. This very nature is in direct conflict with our genetic disposition. Our physical bodies our bound by the physics of the universe, and is subject to external influences, such is proved by current studies of genome science. The gap between our conscious and our physical being, has been growing indefinitely therefore creating an internal conflict.

It is therefore this realisation, that the outcomes that have lead to this point in humanity were inevitable. Because we now know this reason for the internal conflict (manifesting in directly observable external conflicts) we are able to move to a higher spiritual vibration, whereby true human nature can flourish, in harmony with our genetic disposition.

Only when we address this very core issue of humanity can the true problems we face be rebuilit from the foundations up.