TWO excellent articles to show someone who is still sitting on the OS / Truther fence

Apologies if these have been posted before, I did a site search but couldn't find any posts about these.

These are a "must read" for anyone who is still unsure about 9/11 and helps to explain why many have difficulty coming to terms with the truth and also the differences between OSers and Truthers in the approach they make to presenting their cases.

tvnewslies.org...

tvnewslies.org...

Originally posted by Alpha20mega
Apologies if these have been posted before, I did a site search but couldn't find any posts about these.

These are a "must read" for anyone who is still unsure about 9/11 and helps to explain why many have difficulty coming to terms with the truth and also the differences between OSers and Truthers in the approach they make to presenting their cases.

This particular article hasn't been presented, but the article itself repeats all the baloney and propaganda the conspiracy mongors have been pushing for years. David Ray Griffin has been exposed as a laughing stock and only a Loose Change groupie would ever think Dylan Avery ever "ripped the Popular Science article to shreds".

The moment these guys pulled out that stale "conspiracy doubters believe everything the government tells them without question" nonsense all the guy managed to prove is that he's getting all his abject paranoia from those damned fool conspiracy web sites. In the real world, I haven't met even *one* person who "believes everything the government tells them without question". That's simply a sad, sad security blanket the truthers have to cling to in order to soothe their bruised egos from not getting anywhere with theiir conspiracy stories. Frankly, it's getting old.

Originally posted by GoodOlDave
The moment these guys pulled out that stale "conspiracy doubters believe everything the government tells them without question" nonsense all the guy managed to prove is that he's getting all his abject paranoia from those damned fool conspiracy web sites.

Hey Dave, its been a while, so ok I'll bite. Such elequence deserves at least one response. See if you can answer these simple questions:

Would you consider yourself a "conspiracy doubter"?

What do you believe that the gov't has told you, that you question and why?

Is there anything your gov't has told you that you do not believe, and what is it?

Originally posted by budaruskie
Hey Dave, its been a while, so ok I'll bite. Such elequence deserves at least one response. See if you can answer these simple questions:

Would you consider yourself a "conspiracy doubter"?

What do you believe that the gov't has told you, that you question and why?

Is there anything your gov't has told you that you do not believe, and what is it?

Oh, no, I believe there's a conspiracy. The very fact that the Bush administration couldn't even hand out bottles of water to hurricane survivors in New Orleans without slipping on banana peels tells me there had to have been a heck of a lot more incompetence involving how the gov't reacted to 9/11. Interceptors were being sent off chasing phantom planes, orders weren't being handed down properly, officials were copping out on their training, and the like. I absolutely positively guarantee that there had to have been a lot more stubling into walls and tripping over their own shadows than what they're admitting. For all I know, someone had a warning of an imminet attack that was lying forgotten beneath a pizza box in the corner of their office.

The conspiracy is obvious- there's a massive coverup of this incompetency and noone wants to be the one to come forward and admit their screwups caused the deaths of 3000 people, and the reason for THAT is obvious, too- they'd be looking at hard core prison time. It's just that you truthers don't want to accept this scenario becuase it doesn't sound sinister enough for you.

This is why I support additional investigations, 'cause I want to know who it was that screwed up...and this is why I object to you conspiracy mongors, 'cause I know you're going to hijack any future investigations and waste everyone's time looking for lasers from outer space, missile pods, secret cults of Satan worshipping numerologists, and all the other crap Alex Jones and Dylan Avery are shovelling out.

Not the answer you were expecting, was it?

reply to post by Alpha20mega


Where did you get the idea that these were "excellent" articles? Looks like the same old ignorant claptrap stupidity that has been the foundation of the Truther complex for the past 10 years. Where does "excellent" come in?

reply to post by GoodOlDave


Ok Dave, I know there will be no reasoning with you, especially given my position as a "conspiracy mongerer". But what if someone purposefully placed the pizza box you speak of on the proposed intel? You just assume that it's placement is happenstance and a true investigation would not allow for such a monumental assumption.

I think they put two or three "pizza boxes" on a desk to cover the blatant incompetence displayed during the past several years...figuratively speaking of course.

Oh and by the way I did in fact expect mention of space rays, holograms, drivel, damn fooled blah blah blah, and a total lack of cognitive reasoning...and as always you delivered.

Originally posted by budaruskie
reply to post by GoodOlDave

 

Ok Dave, I know there will be no reasoning with you, especially given my position as a "conspiracy mongerer". But what if someone purposefully placed the pizza box you speak of on the proposed intel? You just assume that it's placement is happenstance and a true investigation would not allow for such a monumental assumption.

This is rather a strange accusation, seeing that it's reasoning rather than emotion that leads me to my position to begin with. For one thing, I am basing my position on past behavior, as I can give you as many examples of gov't incompetence as you would like. Can you give me even ONE example where anyone was able to sneak in and plant hidden controlled demolitions in an occupied building without anyone noticing?

The problem for you is that in every other documented gov't conspiracy, there was a clear cut, immediate goal the conspiracy was set up to obtain. With Northwoods, it was to overthrow Castro. With Iran-Contra, it was to obtain untraceable funding for Nicaraguan rebels. With Watergate, it was to obtain dirt on Nixon's enemies. With Fast and Furious, it was to find illegal Mexican gun runners. What the heck possible benefit is there to organize this gigantic convoluted conspiracy involving secret bombs and faked hijacking all to frame some toilet of a country that even the Soviet Union didn't think was worth fighting over?

THIS is why we need more investigations- there is a vaccuum of information and you conspiracy people are simply attempting to fill the vaccuum with your own abject paranoia. If anything, another investigation will put these crackpot conspiracy claims to bed once and for all.

Oh and by the way I did in fact expect mention of space rays, holograms, drivel, damn fooled blah blah blah, and a total lack of cognitive reasoning...and as always you delivered.

Are you denying the conspiracy people are proposing all sorts of crackpot conspriacy claims, or more to the point, are you denying that these damned fool conspiracy web sites aren't pushing out all these crackpot conspiracy claims?

Are you saying Dylan Avery isn't trying to convince people there were missile pods on the planes that hit the towers? Are you saying Dr. Judy Wood hasn't filed a lawsuit claiming the gov't is covering up lasers from outer space? Are you saying Thierry Meyssan didn't invent the claim that no plane hit the Pentagon to sell a bunch of books? Are you saying that anyone could possibly look at the attack and instictively think the planes were holograms on their own accord, without some dope coming along and putting that idea into their head? You will be lying through your teeth if you are.

This "I'm lacking cognitive ability" bit is nothing but a sad, sad security blanket you're clinging to that soothes your bruised ego from not getting anywhere with your claims, the same way that this "we all mindlessly believe whatever the gov't tells us" excuse is being used.

Good ol' Dave cannot think of a reason why powerful people within the American administration would bother to blow up buildings and attack the Pentagon so that hillsman in Afghanistan would be blamed. So he has to fall back on the tired, old argument that the US government is too incompetant to organise such a sophisticated conspiracy as 9/11. How ridiculous!

Perhaps he should investigate how much Haliburton made out of the Iraq invasion. Perhaps he should research how much money the defense corporations have made out of the wars in both Iraq and Afghanistan.

You're wasting your breath, Dave won't do anything other than repeat the same things, over and over and for some reason, he really hates Dylan Avery. Could it be that 'Loose Change' scares the hell out of these guys?

Originally posted by micpsi
Good ol' Dave cannot think of a reason why powerful people within the American administration would bother to blow up buildings and attack the Pentagon so that hillsman in Afghanistan would be blamed. So he has to fall back on the tired, old argument that the US government is too incompetant to organise such a sophisticated conspiracy as 9/11. How ridiculous!

No, actually, I really can't think of a single reason why we would want to frame Afghanistan. If these conspiracy claims were even remotely true, we'd instead be framing Iran, Libya, Venezuela, or any number of thorns in our side that had resources we could grab. Heck, not even the Soviet Union thought Afghanistan was worth fighting over.

Perhaps he should investigate how much Haliburton made out of the Iraq invasion. Perhaps he should research how much money the defense corporations have made out of the wars in both Iraq and Afghanistan.

Perhaps this poster should investigate the validity of his own claims rather than simply quoting something that someone else quoted to him. It just came out in the news that the US gov't is turning over billions of dollars worth of equipment to the gov't of Iraq becuase these are integral components of the military bases we built and it would be prohibitively expensive to bring back...

US to hand over military bases worth billions to Iraq

...so we essentially wound up increasing the military strength of a country that has every reason to hate us and will almost certainly be influenced by the same radical Islamic fundamentalism that started this whole thing to begin with. So where are all these mega-profits we're supposed to be getting out of this war that was supposed to be the reason behind this conspiracy of yours, because all I'm seeing is mega-squandering.

Heck, I don't even need to point out the government incompetence here to you. Where were those Iraqi WMD, again?

Originally posted by dillweed
You're wasting your breath, Dave won't do anything other than repeat the same things, over and over and for some reason, he really hates Dylan Avery. Could it be that 'Loose Change' scares the hell out of these guys?

Of course Loose Change scares the hell out of me. There is a gigantic amount of information that shows the 9/11 attack was legitimately thr work of Islamic fundamentalists and yet that Avery douchebag is circulating all sorts of incredibly foolish claims to gullible people and inciting false public unrest simply to sell T-shirts. I can see right away where this is heading...

9/11 conspiracy theorist attacks Pentagon personnel

Sooner or later some innocent person is going to get killed over this crap.

reply to post by GoodOlDave
There's already thousands of innocent people that have been killed over 'this crap'. What, besides your opinion, makes Avery a douchebag and his claims foolish. Because the OS is so weak when it comes to proof of its claims, he has every right to propose his ideas about what happened that day. Just because you buy the OS doesn't mean others are of like mind. It also doesn't make him a target for your slanderous remarks. If 'Loose change' is so preposterous, why do you attack it every chance you get? Me thinks thou dost protesteth too much.

Originally posted by dillweed
reply to post by GoodOlDave

 

There's already thousands of innocent people that have been killed over 'this crap'. What, besides your opinion, makes Avery a douchebag and his claims foolish. Because the OS is so weak when it comes to proof of its claims, he has every right to propose his ideas about what happened that day. Just because you buy the OS doesn't mean others are of like mind. It also doesn't make him a target for your slanderous remarks. If 'Loose change' is so preposterous, why do you attack it every chance you get? Me thinks thou dost protesteth too much.

Becuase he is a liar. I'll admit my own human failings and acknowledge I was suckered by his propaganda for a short while, as I really wondered what that mysterious blue tarp covered object was that gov't personnel were bringing out of the Pentagon shortly after the attack, so I did my independent research on what it was...and found out it was really a triage tent being carried INTO the Pentagon. Avery even went so far as to deliberately snip off the background image of gathering crowds as it showed right there in which direction the triage tent-carrying people were walking. I them went on to find out the flick was chock fiull of OTHER BS, like using grainy video taken ten miles away that kinda-sorta looked like missiles were being fired from the plane that hit the south tower, which is shown to be bunk by every OTHER closeup video taken that day, or deliberately snipping off the section of video that showed the penthouse collapsing into WTC 7 six seconds before the building collapsed, all so that he can say "there were mysterious noises in the building six seconds before the collapse". He is literally tampering with the evidence to give his claims false credibility.

THEN, I signed onto his Loose Change discussion forum to discuss the flaws in his flick, and the douchebag banned me from his site after two weeks, not because I was rude or insultive, or violated any TOS, but because I was posting information they didn't want anyone on the board to see. They openly admitted it in their "you are banned" message to me. This is CENSORSHIP, regardless of whatever pretty word you want to use to describe it.

Heck, even Dylan Avery admits indirectly that he's a lying douchebbag when he released an edited second version that got rid of all the mistakes he made in the first version...and then released a THIRD version to get rid of the mistakes in the second version. Despite all the mistakes he admits are in his work, he's still selling all three versions on his web site even though he knows they're full of false information. The kicker was when I found out one of the producers of Loose Change was arrested for dealing heroin. That alone was a ruling by the jury that they were nothing but a bunch of self serving punks attempting to milk the gullibility of others for their own financial gain. If that wasn't enough, the web site of that 9/11 charity Avery attempted to set up (forgot the name) was shut down for lack of payment. The webmaster even went so far as to say although he believes the 9/11 attack was a staged event, Avery was still dishonest as hell.

If you want to cling to these conspiracy stories of yours, that's one thing, but quoting a bunch of lying heroin dealers will only make you look like an idiot. Accept or deny this advice at your own cost.

reply to post by GoodOlDave
Anyone who would ban the likes of you, is AOK with me. Would you care to share the 'info' they wouldn't allow, with us. The reason I ask is because all you've done up 'til now, is repeat the same tired story, over and over and over. When you show me something new to bolster your argument, I'll consider it. But, until then you are an enemy of the republic.

Dave, i have an idea that maybe you could latch onto, i don't know for sure, but it's worth a try.....what if instead of just bumbling, they actually knew it was going to happen and wanted it to happen, which would explain why all those countries claimed that they told us about it and they got no response from us.....and what if the reason behind them wanting it to happen was to instigate the "new pearl harbor" effect which would start flooding funds into the military and turn the country into a police state.....and what if, they even coaxed it into happening and opened the doors for it to happen????? conveniently having drills that day to confuse norad and the military and keep the planes from being hindered from their objective by the airforce????? the moosad and the cia have been known to "instigate" certain happenings to get things rolling.....look at the iraq and kuwait deal with g bush sr., he gave iraq the go ahead to bomb kuwait and then turned right around and used the incident to call for a war against saddam........seems to me this would be the most logical reason of why they knew who it was so quickly....plus, they have used osama bin laden before for fighting the russians in afghanistan....they just put him back on the payroll, gave him a script and some people, and maybe the moosad took care of all the technical stuff, which they are definitely masters of........

Originally posted by dillweed
reply to post by GoodOlDave

 

Anyone who would ban the likes of you, is AOK with me. Would you care to share the 'info' they wouldn't allow, with us. The reason I ask is because all you've done up 'til now, is repeat the same tired story, over and over and over. When you show me something new to bolster your argument, I'll consider it. But, until then you are an enemy of the republic.

If memory serves, at the point of time I was banned, I was discussing how every video of the plane impact that was taken at a closer distance to the WTC than what Loose Change had used will show the plane didn't have any missile pods nor did it fire any missiles. The video Loose Change used was deliberately selected because it was so far away and the blurry images can be interpreted in the way the authors wanted. I don't know but I'l wager I was banned because this was just after his third revision came out and Avery wanted to sweep under the rug his ever making the dumba** claim that the plane fired missiles at the towers before impacting. I myself was relatively fortunate that I lasted two weeks. Anyone who dared to post "no plane" conspiracies was banned immediately.

If you genuinely think such censorship is a legitimate method to help you get your conspiracy claims out, it necessarily means your conspiracy claims are phony as hell and cannot survive even superficial critical analysis, whether you want to acknowledge the fact or not.

Originally posted by patternfinder
Dave, i have an idea that maybe you could latch onto, i don't know for sure, but it's worth a try.....what if instead of just bumbling, they actually knew it was going to happen and wanted it to happen, which would explain why all those countries claimed that they told us about it and they got no response from us.....

I would accept a LIHOP scenario more readily than a MIHOP scenario. For one thing, a MIHOP (specifically the MIHOP these conspiracy people are describing) would require such a convoluted global conspiracy that would require such a monstrously huge support base and an immaculate perfection of coordination that would rival a supernatural act. A LIHOP would require the conspirators to do "nothing", literally. For another, it wouldn't require anyone to rewrite reality to their liking like the MIHOP supporters do because it really was a terrorist attack and the towers really did collapse from fire induced loss of structural integrity. I'll even throw you a bone in saying the LIHOP conspirators never even expected the towers to collapse they way they did themselves and it was just a bonus for them.

The end result for MIHOP and LIHOP speculation are really the same, though- speculation is just another word for make believe. You still gotta prove it.

reply to post by GoodOlDave


just wondering, did you ever read the PNAC papers that actually have the new pearl harbor plan written in them, or do you just think it's so much rubbish that someone faked?

Originally posted by trebor451
reply to post by Alpha20mega

 

Where did you get the idea that these were "excellent" articles? Looks like the same old ignorant claptrap stupidity that has been the foundation of the Truther complex for the past 10 years. Where does "excellent" come in?

Apparently nobody can explain why these are called "excellent" articles. Just more BS from the Truthers that cannot be supported.

Can anyone show me a "debunker" who believes the government story in its entirety? Who thinks that they are being told the whole truth and who ignorantly swallows everything the US government says?