The Confederate Flag: A Disturbing Trend?

If the confederate flag is all about racism then the British Union Jack is about colonialism and there for about racism too. And if we are going to connect flags with human rights then all the Muslim flags are about repression of women and gays.

correct me if im wrong but didnt african americans also fight on the confederate side too?


A google search yields a few results !

Well, I doubt you had much choice if you wanted to be an obedient SLAVE and fight for the side "master" told you to. Blacks had to run away, risking their life, to fight for the union.

Also, that asian person a few pages back that stated "how many of you really had grandparents who were slaves?" This is the problem with immigrants coming to the country for the capitalistic endeavors with no basic knowledge of american history - specifically the largest minority of people who helped build this country. The answer: EVERY African American has a direct link to a slave. Damn.

I'm from southern Va. I remember when Macolm X shirts - the shirts with the huge X - were becoming popular . They were banned from school. This is even though white people were allowed to wear their rebel flag shirts. It was not until the students collectively said that they would not stop wearing X shirts until the Rebel Flag clothing (Dixie Outfitters) were removed that the principle finally outlawed both. . . briefly.

It's rather convienient that all the "southerners' on here talking about lost generations and lost land . etc. Have no regard for the BILLION of generational lost of life and wealth due to slavery. " What about my family's land?!!" Cries the white southerner, to the black person who was cast out and never recieved the 40 acres or mule as promised.

And as someone stated. The South Lost, if you were truly patriotic you would get on board with the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

This is a strange debate. It's like years ago when the filthy Labour were in power in the UK, trying their hardest to destroy everything British, they first made it pretty much illegal for anyone to claim that they are English, even though you and 10+ generations of your family may have been born in England, you're not English, you're British, although the same did not happen to the Welsh or the Scottish. So basically the English became stateless in all but football/soccer. The St George flag suffered the most, to have it offends non-English, so it was banned from most places...minus England football/soccer games.

The same issue I have then, I have with this. It's in America, it's part of your history, who cares? If you get offended by a flag, you must have some serious issues! I don't get offended by anything other than censorship and this my friends, is censorship! People should wave whatever flag they want, say whatever they want, think whatever they want.

I don't agree with Islamic extremists spouting their hate while claiming all the benefits that they can in Britain...I wouldn't tell them to shut up though, it's their right to say what's on their minds.

You either believe in a free world, or you get offended by it! I know which one I am.

Originally posted by SecretFace
This is a strange debate. It's like years ago when the filthy Labour were in power in the UK, trying their hardest to destroy everything British, they first made it pretty much illegal for anyone to claim that they are English, even though you and 10+ generations of your family may have been born in England, you're not English, you're British, although the same did not happen to the Welsh or the Scottish. So basically the English became stateless in all but football/soccer. The St George flag suffered the most, to have it offends non-English, so it was banned from most places...minus England football/soccer games.

The same issue I have then, I have with this. It's in America, it's part of your history, who cares? If you get offended by a flag, you must have some serious issues! I don't get offended by anything other than censorship and this my friends, is censorship! People should wave whatever flag they want, say whatever they want, think whatever they want.

I don't agree with Islamic extremists spouting their hate while claiming all the benefits that they can in Britain...I wouldn't tell them to shut up though, it's their right to say what's on their minds.

You either believe in a free world, or you get offended by it! I know which one I am.

Modern Day Islasmic estremists or the Labour "a few years ago" are apples/oranges to South / North American Relations and their regard to Civil War symbols - especially in the aspect of how those symbols are seen by the former American Slave (ie modern day African Americans).

If you are unfamiliar with it, its best to hysh [HI - SH] up . As we say in the South

The confederate flag is a symbol of the south have the nuts to stand up to the greedy northern states. They of course could not allow us to suceed from the union because we grew most of the crops necessary to survive in north america. Yes the south did have slaves, but so did the north. I tell you what I feel a little po'd everytime I see obama being praised only because he is the black president. We have a long way to go to improve race relations, myself included. But some of the most racist folks around are not white. Rebel flag hell no, but racist rap music glamorizing bad behavior its's no big deal. Muslims wanting everyone who is not in their faith x'd out. The flag isn't bad only the intentions behind it. Thank you and good day.

Originally posted by sapien82
correct me if im wrong but didnt african americans also fight on the confederate side too?


A google search yields a few results !

Yup, they did.

There were some better known black units on the side of the Union, but few ever stop to consider (while celebrating the northern black soldiers and ignoring the southern ones) that they were segregated from the white Union units by the "non racist" northerners, and even then it was believed that they were incapable of command, and had to have white officers.

Racism - it ain't just a southern thang, and it flies no flag of it's own, nor does it ever gather under just one banner. Unfortunate it is that history books are written by the victors.

Originally posted by femalepharoe
Well, I doubt you had much choice if you wanted to be an obedient SLAVE and fight for the side "master" told you to. Blacks had to run away, risking their life, to fight for the union.

"Risk their life" by running away? That's entirely unlike risking their lives to fight in a war HOW? Risking your life is a very personal deed, and only done for what you believe in the most strongly. I don't know of any "slaves" that fought for the south on orders of a master, but can't preclude the possibility. It seems a no-brainer to send off someone you've abused, put a GUN IN THEIR HANDS, and show them the direction to the people who are trying to kill YOU.

I dunno. I believe that if I were keeping slaves, the last thing I'd want to do is put a gun in their hands. You've heard of the Spartacus Rebellion, haven't you? I'm sure that it was known to the southerners as well, especially of the richer sort, who had the benefit of a classical education.

Also, that asian person a few pages back that stated "how many of you really had grandparents who were slaves?" This is the problem with immigrants coming to the country for the capitalistic endeavors with no basic knowledge of american history - specifically the largest minority of people who helped build this country. The answer: EVERY African American has a direct link to a slave. Damn.

Not true. Obama himself has no slaves in his family tree. Furthermore, the poster specified "grandparents", implying there is a limit to animosity. If we are to retain the animosities of history, there are several groups of people I need to be "setting straight", nearly all Europeans.

I'm from southern Va. I remember when Macolm X shirts - the shirts with the huge X - were becoming popular . They were banned from school. This is even though white people were allowed to wear their rebel flag shirts. It was not until the students collectively said that they would not stop wearing X shirts until the Rebel Flag clothing (Dixie Outfitters) were removed that the principle finally outlawed both. . . briefly.

Neither should have been banned, since they are free political expression, and protected by the First Amendment.

It's rather convienient that all the "southerners' on here talking about lost generations and lost land . etc. Have no regard for the BILLION of generational lost of life and wealth due to slavery. " What about my family's land?!!" Cries the white southerner, to the black person who was cast out and never recieved the 40 acres or mule as promised.

"40 acres and a mule" was a promise from Lincoln. Apply to Lincoln for it. Let me know what he says. Pretty easy to promise to giver away OTHER folks' stuff, isn't it? Let's discuss lost land, though. that "40 acres" isn't lost land, since you can't lose what you didn't have to begin with. My tribe lost quite a bit of land, and got sequestered in to a zoo, on a patch of mostly useless land that is "supposed" to be theirs, but is still owned and operated by the Feds. The fact is that I personally own more land now than my entire tribe does collectively. Not hard to do - to own ANY is to own more.

So to recap, you want to take what was stolen from me, and give it to the guy down the street?

And as someone stated. The South Lost, if you were truly patriotic you would get on board with the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

I think it was Samuel Johnson who said "patriotism is the last refuge of scoundrels." If I'm going to be a "scoundrel", I'll do it for my own, not invaders.

The Indians "lost", too, so they ought to just shut up and be happy with the zoos they've been given, right? Same as the southerners? I know a few Indian combat vets. You ought to look one up some time, and ask him why he went to war, whether it was for a "flag" or "THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA" or something else altogether. You seem to be confusing land with a government which occupies it.

Originally posted by femalepharoe

Modern Day Islasmic estremists or the Labour "a few years ago" are apples/oranges to South / North American Relations and their regard to Civil War symbols - especially in the aspect of how those symbols are seen by the former American Slave (ie modern day African Americans).

He knows what he is talking about. It's a flag that some who wear chips on their shoulders find offensive, and the debate is no different than the one here. No one ever guaranteed you or I or anyone else a "right" not to be offended.

I'd like the name of just ONE of these alleged modern "African Americans" who is also a "former American Slave", and yet still living. I'd like to interview them.

If you are unfamiliar with it, its best to hysh [HI - SH] up . As we say in the South

There speaks the true voice of censorship, and it shames me that it spoke with a southern accent. It would shame me had it spoke with ANY accent of a human language.

More than shame, it OFFENDS me. Good thing I'm not agitating against your right to offend, isn't it?

reply to post by TheRedneck


Redneck - I believe that the blacks were forced to join the Confederate Army under the threat of death if they did not join up.

Can you back me up with evidence on this topic.

Thanks,

Erno86

Originally posted by GogoVicMorrow
reply to post by sparrowstail

 

That's a little absurd to say.
The confederate flag is no more tarnished than the American flag. You can't even almost compare it to the swastika.. The confederate flag is mostly tarnished by history books and a lot of misinformation not actual actions.
They didn't commit atrocities under the flag.

Also.. there aren't many cars that would last too long left alone in downtown Detroit nowadays ; )

If you believe that the Confederate Army did not commit atrocities under the Confederate Flag - Can you explain away the atrocities committed by the Confederate Army on Union prisoners at the Andersonville Prison during the Civil War?

Also... Can you explain away the fact that the Confederate Army immediately executed captured Black Union Soldiers ?

Originally posted by reeferman
reply to post by xEphon

 

the Confederate Flag is NOT about racism..

its about FREEDOM....

That is a fact!

It is sad that people are ignorant about the Civil War.

To bad ignorance isn't painful!

Originally posted by getreadyalready
reply to post by TheRedneck

 

LOL! A good friend of mine is a white guy in an all black fraternity and he proudly wears his Confederate Flag right along side his "hooks" and "brands."

I am much, much more likely to use the n-word in that crowd than I ever would in a crowd of white folks. In that crowd, the word is descriptive in a couple of ways. It differentiates between an intelligent and hard-working black guy, and one with pants sagging and 10 illegitimate children and a couple of "cases" on him.

I think in the US, the most racist place in the country is in a room full of white folks placating the plight of the black folks and looking for any slight innuendo of racism in their peers. I feel far more comfortable discussing this stuff around black folks than I do white folks.

Yes, my Confederate Flag flies on my biker vest and pick-up truck no matter where I am, and anyone that I know that wears one feels the same way.

See this thread for my last event (9/11) with a description of all the different cultural groups riding along in unity, and proudly flying their individuality with no problems.

I believe that a person of a different race, other than black, should not use the "n word" in speaking to a black person; just as a heterosexual should not call a homosexual a "queer," or "faggot" while speaking to him or her.


I'am a "Damn Yankee," and proud of it. I'm offended when I see the stars & bars displayed anywhere in these modern times, except for Civil War reenactments; especially on state capitol buildings.

I tend to avoid people who display the Confederate Flag, just as I avoid people who display the Nazi Flag.

The Confederate Flag is a symbol of oppression, that was long used after the Civil War to warn Blacks and Jews, that the Southern United States was still under the jackboot of racial prejudice and racial hatred long after the Civil War.

The Confederate flag was also used as a warning too blacks, to "know their place" and to not get "uppity."

reply to post by Erno86


How Ironic that you see the flag as a symbol of oppression, and we fly the flag as a symbol against oppression.

You see whatever you see, so I can't discount your point of view, but I can say it is probably a good idea for a "damn yankee" to avoid anyone that might be flying the flag.

As for racist language, you have illustrated the point that it isn't the words that are bad, it is the intention behind them. It doesn't matter what color someone is when they use the words, it matters how they intend the words. As with all things, it is the individuals that matter, not the words. And as I said before, as a white guy, I have offended many more white guys than I ever have black guys. In fact, I can't think of a time I ever offended a black guy in that way?

I just want to know at what point did symbols, words and ideas become weaponized so that someone is actually being "hurt" by them?
Kids used to tease me in school for being the shortest one there and do you know what my mother told me?
"sticks and stones may"....you know the rest.

Another question: who now gets to decide which are "too offensive" for public display or usage?
The ministry of truth perhaps?

150 years later... and ATS is proof that we are still fighting that war.

My wife is from New Jersey... and she often jokes that "down here" American history only goes back to 1861. Up 'nawth"...she says they talk about the American Revolution...and fly colonial flags and revolutionary flags of the colonies...

But down here... we are still fighting the war.

When we got married about 10-11 years ago...we went on our honeymoon to Charleston, SC and then on down to Savannah, Ga and Tybee Island. Georgia had recently changed their state flag to not include the battle flag...HOWEVER, the new state flag looks for all the world like the First Flag of the Confederacy...the actual Stars and Bars... as we were rolling into Savannah...state flags flying everywhere and lining the street...she saw me grinning from ear to ear and wondered what I was smiling about.
Now she knows I am a Civil War buff, and she knows what all the flags look like. So she started looking around and said..."OH, the flags." I said yup..."looks like we won the war and they are waiting for Robert Lee to arrive."

Obviously, after the discussions here at ATS...right or wrong, racists or not...the Confederate Battle Flag will be a point of contention for at least another generation... it might outlive the USA.... how ironic.

Originally posted by dragonseeker

Originally posted by BooKrackers

Originally posted by dragonseeker

Originally posted by TechniXcality
The confederate flag is not racist, it is the person that holds the flag that represents the meaning

edit on 17-9-2011 by TechniXcality because: (no reason given)

OK, cool. get yourself a swastika flag, find a synagogue, stand in front, and start waving it. Just before you get knocked the # out and arrested, tell them what you just told us

edit on 18-9-2011 by dragonseeker because: (no reason given)

Why? he's right...it is the person. I could grab you throw you in a bed sheet and drop you off in Harlem..you have the attitude for it.

Troll much?

edit on 18-9-2011 by BooKrackers because: (no reason given)

not a troll at all..and since I'm black, if you did that, I'd get some funny stares but that's about it

my point is, the confederate flag has come to symbolize the days of slavery, much like the swastika has come to symbolize the nazi's even though the symbol itself is a rune, thousands of years old, that has no racist connotation attached to it at all. it gained that connotation because of the nazi's misuse of it. same with the confederate flag. it may NOT have been, when it was created, meant to symbolize racism and slavery. BUT(as someone earlier in the thread showed) the confederacy WAS about the ability to own slaves, NOT just taxation and state's rights. if you stand for slavery, even if not every person involved agreed with or participated in it, if you stand for it, and the confederate flag is your symbol, than IT stands for those things as well.

ok i'll give you that out of fairness of perception......yet freeing the slaves was just a way to make us a different kind of slave....

Originally posted by Erno86

Originally posted by GogoVicMorrow

They didn't commit atrocities under the flag.

If you believe that the Confederate Army did not commit atrocities under the Confederate Flag -

My Great-Great grandfather on my mothers side was in the 22nd Va Cavalry, under McCausland. Neither he, nor anyone else in my family that I've been able to find, ever owned a slave. None of them were ever rich enough to afford to own their very own people. That didn't keep him from burning Chambersburg MD. Pretty atrocious, and no less atrocious than the burning of Atlanta. It's just a matter of scale.

The flag he rode under is on display in a museum in Richmond, VA. It's a square Confederate Battle Flag, the same sort that is commonly on display today and under discussion here as a "Confederate flag". He didn't ride under it to preserve his slaves, since he didn't have any. He rode to preserve his family and his country from invaders.

Did he commit atrocity in the burning of Chambersburg? yeah, I'd say so. How far are you willing to go in the preservation of your family and your nation? I don't know the answer to that, and neither do you until you're pressed to that extreme by an invading enemy. I'd like to think I wouldn't go that far, and so far never have, but you never know what you might do when you're up to your nostrils in hot grease which is getting deeper until you're right there in it.

reply to post by Erno86

I can back myself up with some common sense... these 10-hour workdays are nice on the bank account, but not on free time to dig up sources.

Look at it this way: troops at the time walked from one battlefield to the next. Only the commanders had mounts. They had to cover some pretty rugged country in the process. Anyone who wanted to escape would have plenty of opportunity. So why would anyone demand that expensive slaves enlist in such a position, knowing that there was almost no chance they wouldn't escape?

Walking in a regiment composed entirely of slaves, unchained (because it would be silly to even consider chaining someone who you needed to be able to fight at a moment's notice) and armed, is not exactly a good way to maintain control over someone... especially someone who supposedly wants to be free and who you just threatened with death!

TheRedneck

reply to post by Erno86


No blacks were forced to fight under the Confederate flag, In fact the Confederate Congress didn't legalize the idea until maybe a month before the war ended. No black Confederate unit ever saw combat, not that some free blacks did not, The South had a draft so you could say everyone from age 16 -45 was forced to fight under the stars and bars. Many men of mixed racial heritage fought for the Confederates as well as the Cherokee tribe (some of whom were also slave owners)

As for atrocities there were many on both sides but primarily the Union. Hundreds of Southern towns and several cities were burned to the ground yet only one Northern town was treated similarly in reprisal. The Confederates had many opportunities to do so but felt it was an affront to their honor to attack civilians. The concept of "total war" was a Northern practice, their own version of shock and awe for the time.

More Confederate prisoners died in Union prisons than did Union prisoners in Southern camps. Andersonville is commonly mentioned as a Confederate disgrace yet it was US Grant that canceled the prisoner exchange that was previously in effect.
The prisoners starved because the entire South was starving and Union raids had destroyed the rail lines that brought food to Andersonville. Starving them was not a conscious choice by anyone but a terrible tragedy brought on by circumstances of the war.

Historians have done much to malign the Confederate cause usually by sins of omission. They like to forget the Union misdoings and highlight those of the Southerners who suffered terribly for another 20 years after the war due to the wrecked economy, large numbers of disabled veterans and Union domination. The last troops of the occupation marched out of Charleston, S.C in 1876 - 11 years after the war ended and the same year that Custer was slaughtered at little big horn.