A & E. A natural death or murdered by God?

A & E. A natural death or murdered by God?

A friend has a child with a peanut allergy. He keeps the life saving medicine in his home.
He commanded his son not to eat peanuts but one day his son did. On noticing the situation, he quickly administered the drug. He recognized that the fright and discomfort to his child was punishment enough in and of itself and did not administer any other consequences. Not to his recovering child nor his siblings who had been with the child.

He mentioned, in jest, that if God would have been of like mind, the world would never have been cursed by God and all of us would not have had death and original sin imposed on us.

Genesis says that the first time that A & E did their own will and not the will of God, God administered, not only the known consequence of death on them, he also added a list of consequences that had yet not been discussed with anyone. In fact, the benefit of the gain of a moral sense, something quite valuable, was also never discussed. A & E had to gain that information from the talking snake.

These facts indicate to me that some who say that Genesis if full of instances of injustice may be right.

If I assume that A & E fell when they gained their moral sense, a strange concept to me as well as the Jews who see Genesis as man‘s elevation, Gen 3 22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil----then they truly made a mistake.

Having done something that could make them surely die as God said, it would seem to me as with my friend and his child, God should have given them the medicine that would save them. Something any good parent would do.

Instead, God put the medicine, the tree of life, in his safe, so to speak, and let A & E suffer and die as he watched.

There are two moral questions that pop to mind for me.

1. Is it moral for either God or man to sit and do nothing, or even hold back, life saving measures from a dying child?

Scripture shows God barring the way to the tree of life.

2. Is it Moral, for parents or God, to add on a group of as yet unknown consequences, to some infraction that a child may have done?

Scripture shows God passing on A & E’s sin to us via original sin, cursing the earth etc.
All consequences that he arbitrarily added on without any warning at all.

Now I know that some say that we cannot judge God.
I will let the Bible judge him then.

On original sin and death being given to all of us.
Ezekiel 18:20
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

On God’s action toward the evil disobedience.
Romans 12:21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

A reply to both questions above would be appreciated.

Regards
DL

www.youtube.com...

www.youtube.com...

www.youtube.com...

None of us could possibly know Gods reasons for letting anyone die any kind of death. Sure it seems like he's abandoned us or is simply watching the chaos but he has reasons and we wont know what those reasons are until our time comes.

The fact that Adam was 930 when he died hardly seems a 'natural' death and he was 130 and still siring offspring. Very little about these stories seem natural.
Whereas life and death is just that, natural and one cannot blame an ill child for some pecieved moral rectitude in their passing. I feel you are thereby demeaning them and possibly causing anguish to the parents as well as once again casting guilt about indiscriminently.

Originally posted by cj6
None of us could possibly know Gods reasons for letting anyone die any kind of death. Sure it seems like he's abandoned us or is simply watching the chaos but he has reasons and we wont know what those reasons are until our time comes.

So I guess..if i see someone drowning..I shouldn't intervene with gods plans,and let them drown?

Are you're going to say that its gods plan that I jump in and try and save?..or maybe its gods plan that I jump in try and save and we both drown?..

I really detest the answer that we don't know how God thinks, therefore we should just accept his almighty wisdom on everything. What a load of malarky.

reply to post by gabby2011

I really detest the answer that we don't know how God thinks, therefore we should just accept his almighty wisdom on everything. What a load of malarky.

Wow, but yet we expect our own children to listen and obey us even though they don't fully grasp the reasoning behind our rules and methodologies.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

So according to your own book the only difference between man and the gods after eating the magical knowledge fruit thingy is we don’t live as long as they do

Which must mean we also know when god(s) is doing right or wrong

Originally posted by cj6
None of us could possibly know Gods reasons for letting anyone die any kind of death. Sure it seems like he's abandoned us or is simply watching the chaos but he has reasons and we wont know what those reasons are until our time comes.

If you do not know the reason, how can you possibly know that he has any?

You are just assuming he does just as you assume he exists are you not?
Or do you have something other than hear say and book say to go on?
Apotheosis perhaps?

Regards
DL

Originally posted by goldentorch
The fact that Adam was 930 when he died hardly seems a 'natural' death and he was 130 and still siring offspring. Very little about these stories seem natural.
Whereas life and death is just that, natural and one cannot blame an ill child for some pecieved moral rectitude in their passing. I feel you are thereby demeaning them and possibly causing anguish to the parents as well as once again casting guilt about indiscriminently.

edit on 15/8/11 by goldentorch because: addendum

Christianity is all about guilt.
You cannot get cash from those who do not feel guilt.

This Bishop tells it like it is.
Quite rare for a man of the cloth I might add.

.www.youtube.com...

www.youtube.com...

Regards
DL

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by gabby2011

 

I really detest the answer that we don't know how God thinks, therefore we should just accept his almighty wisdom on everything. What a load of malarky.

Wow, but yet we expect our own children to listen and obey us even though they don't fully grasp the reasoning behind our rules and methodologies.

We are here. God is not.
See the difference?

Regards
DL

reply to post by Greatest I am


Listening to the lecture now and although I totally deny any sort of God I am enjoying it he talks a lot of sense there's a lot of religious people could do with listening to his rationale.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by gabby2011

 

I really detest the answer that we don't know how God thinks, therefore we should just accept his almighty wisdom on everything. What a load of malarky.

Wow, but yet we expect our own children to listen and obey us even though they don't fully grasp the reasoning behind our rules and methodologies.

We try and teach our wisdom to children..so they may avoid hurt, disappointment , as well as not hurting others.

If as a child..I had to watch my parents stand by and let people die....that they could have saved....damn straight I would have asked a few questions....and rightfully so. You are saying children should just witness their parents allow things to happen that they could have easily prevented,and not ask questions?

That seems very foolish in my eyes.

Originally posted by cj6
None of us could possibly know Gods reasons for letting anyone die any kind of death. Sure it seems like he's abandoned us or is simply watching the chaos but he has reasons and we wont know what those reasons are until our time comes.

And it's expected, that people 'worship' what looks like a deranged demon with a secret agenda, on the words of a circle-argumented mythological manual.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by gabby2011

 

I really detest the answer that we don't know how God thinks, therefore we should just accept his almighty wisdom on everything. What a load of malarky.

Wow, but yet we expect our own children to listen and obey us even though they don't fully grasp the reasoning behind our rules and methodologies.

Also if the parent(s) is a schizoid sociopath?

reply to post by Greatest I am

1. Is it moral for either God or man to sit and do nothing, or even hold back, life saving measures from a dying child?

Obviously NO...

God, doesn't hold back life saving measures for anyone, though the man behind this child may have due to his lack of understanding of the bible. Or having the bible preached to him...

2. Is it Moral, for parents or God, to add on a group of as yet unknown consequences, to some infraction that a child may have done?

Everything has concequences, good and bad. Its up to the parent to make sure the child is safe until he/she understands the word concequences. Children do not understand that concept until aprox. the age of 5

This sounds very Jehova witness ish.... maybe you should ask one of them...

I know where to find one actually... Though you won't get any decent answers from him....

quite typical

Thousands of species go extinct. Our kind came VERY close at one point. To think that the universe or earth was made especially for us, or that "GOD" has a special plan seems to be very arrogant, and solipsistic.

Originally posted by goldentorch
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

Listening to the lecture now and although I totally deny any sort of God I am enjoying it he talks a lot of sense there's a lot of religious people could do with listening to his rationale.

With you on this.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

1. Is it moral for either God or man to sit and do nothing, or even hold back, life saving measures from a dying child?

Obviously NO...

God, doesn't hold back life saving measures for anyone, though the man behind this child may have due to his lack of understanding of the bible. Or having the bible preached to him...

You say obviously no yet that is exactly what god did with A & E.
He hid the tree of life away.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by NeverForget
Thousands of species go extinct. Our kind came VERY close at one point. To think that the universe or earth was made especially for us, or that "GOD" has a special plan seems to be very arrogant, and solipsistic.

We are just bright enough to know that we are less than a flee on a dog to God or this eco system.

Regards
DL

reply to post by Greatest I am

You say obviously no yet that is exactly what god did with A & E.
He hid the tree of life away.

Th Bible mentions a god of the air without naming him.
It mentions the name of the goddess of the ocean, but without describing her too much.
They ignore the god or goddess of the earth by recognizing the cooperation between the air and ocean, to separate and thus exposing the land that was already their but under the surface prior to the act of separation.
The creation of the earth god or goddess was the tree of knowledge but the air god never wanted man to know about that god.

Originally posted by Greatest I am
A & E. A natural death or murdered by God?

A friend has a child with a peanut allergy. He keeps the life saving medicine in his home.
He commanded his son not to eat peanuts but one day his son did. On noticing the situation, he quickly administered the drug. He recognized that the fright and discomfort to his child was punishment enough in and of itself and did not administer any other consequences. Not to his recovering child nor his siblings who had been with the child.

He mentioned, in jest, that if God would have been of like mind, the world would never have been cursed by God and all of us would not have had death and original sin imposed on us.

Genesis says that the first time that A & E did their own will and not the will of God, God administered, not only the known consequence of death on them, he also added a list of consequences that had yet not been discussed with anyone. In fact, the benefit of the gain of a moral sense, something quite valuable, was also never discussed. A & E had to gain that information from the talking snake.

These facts indicate to me that some who say that Genesis if full of instances of injustice may be right.

If I assume that A & E fell when they gained their moral sense, a strange concept to me as well as the Jews who see Genesis as man‘s elevation, Gen 3 22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil----then they truly made a mistake.

Having done something that could make them surely die as God said, it would seem to me as with my friend and his child, God should have given them the medicine that would save them. Something any good parent would do.

Instead, God put the medicine, the tree of life, in his safe, so to speak, and let A & E suffer and die as he watched.

There are two moral questions that pop to mind for me.

1. Is it moral for either God or man to sit and do nothing, or even hold back, life saving measures from a dying child?

Scripture shows God barring the way to the tree of life.

2. Is it Moral, for parents or God, to add on a group of as yet unknown consequences, to some infraction that a child may have done?

Scripture shows God passing on A & E’s sin to us via original sin, cursing the earth etc.
All consequences that he arbitrarily added on without any warning at all.

Now I know that some say that we cannot judge God.
I will let the Bible judge him then.

On original sin and death being given to all of us.
Ezekiel 18:20
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

On God’s action toward the evil disobedience.
Romans 12:21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

A reply to both questions above would be appreciated.

Regards
DL

www.youtube.com...

www.youtube.com...

www.youtube.com...

I'm sorry, you read a different Genesis than i did. The Book of Genesis i read clearly stated that by adam and eve eating from the forbidden tree of knowledge caused them to die, not God himself. When they sinned, it clung to them henceforth and any children they bore was born into that sin and their sons and daughters down the line. To keep adam and eve from living an eternity corrupted, he out a flaming sword at the gate to the garden of Eden to keep them away from the tree of life, so they would not remain corrupted forever after eating from the tree of knowledge.

God hasnt had an active role in this world since he sent Jesus, nor after because this world belongs to Satan, HE is the God of this earth/air. You pass judgement on a being that you know next to nothing about, and by the measure you judge others, shall be the same measure used to judge you. You should study your bible more and ask the Holy Spirit to help you decipher it, because you are using your own HUMAN rationality and not the spirit of truth.