The Descent into the Bottomless Pit

reply to post by pthena
I doubt that too many people read the whole book of Ezekiel.
I don't think I ever sat down and read the whole thing.
Most people just know a couple trimmed down verses they are lead to believe reflect a high minded attitude towards God.
I can't say I have it all sorted out.
What about all the OT characters with the word baal in their names who mysteriously show up with yahwistic names?
How far back does it go?
I get your point, that Ezekiel was firmly entrenched into the Yahweh camp and recognized no higher god.
Did he mistakenly identify the real God by using what he thought was his proper name, or did he know exactly what he was doing and wanted no higher god than the one who honored him with special attention and cute nicknames.

reply to post by jmdewey60

Did he mistakenly identify the real God by using what he thought was his proper name, or did he know exactly what he was doing and wanted no higher god than the one who honored him with special attention and cute nicknames.

He was in on it, as in one of the P source(priestly) for the Torah, J may have been during Josiah's reign. Ezekiel was a member of the "secret priestly society", pretty sure he knew exactly what he was up to. He sat down and wrote some of the "word's of Moses".

ETA: The literary style of chapter 20 is the same as the Leviticus 26 curse.
ETA: The juxtaposition of remembering from Ezekiel 20:43 and several other places in Ezekiel is the people will always remember and " you will loathe yourselves for all the evil you have done." with Hebrews 10:17 ""Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more." is quoting from Jeremiah, not Ezekiel.

reply to post by pthena
There were lots of Christians who never wanted the OT put into the canon and felt it was bad.
So, it may have been psychic channeling, how so many hundreds of years later, the prophet reproduces, word for word what Moses said. Easy if it is the same person being channeled both times.
I believe that the tent which was this artifact of something, existed and there was a legend attached.
What it really was is a bit obscure and having whole books fabricated to explain it does not help.
But then you have something like Hebrews and Paul which refer back to the legend, to explain Jesus.
Was it just a literary device and there was probably not a connection to an actual reality?
The actual covenent was made with twelve stones.
What was the actuality to the New Covenant, what you wrote?
That was the actual covenent being confirmed, at the last supper, and the thing about heaven was the storing of the record, the placing of the tablets in the box?
Lots of questions, now I feel like Mividau.

reply to post by pthena
I have this huge book which is nothing but linking the OT an the NT, with indexes where I can see which OT verses get quoted or referred to in the NT. I need to break that out and see how much of Ezekiel ends up in the NT. I have to get my extra strong glasses out to read it so not my favorite that way but very informative.
(it's in my book list on my profile page)

reply to post by jmdewey60

I believe that the tent which was this artifact of something, existed and there was a legend attached.

The tent probably was there before the Monarchy, not kept up, and not very popular a place to go to. Remember the Levites were wandering people with no inheritance land. They probably came from the north into Canaan. The Exodus is pure myth, the Hyksos(semitic overlords and enslavers of Egypt) left Egypt a couple of hundred years before the so-called Exodus. They moved north into caanan and mixed with the tribes there. The Levites come from the north, and actually make up religions for small tribes, with them as the priest of course. Judges 17:5; led to a Danite slaughter. Judges 19-20 Near extinction of tribe of Benjamin due to Levite incitement.

The Levites were most closely associated with the tribe of Judah, formed alliance with David. Judah becomes more powerful than . . . got to babysit now.

reply to post by jmdewey60

see how much of Ezekiel ends up in the NT.

Revelation is a re-interpretation of Ezekiel, probably a backhanded slam against the rival Babylonian Priesthood, perhaps started by Ezekiel himself. After Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD, that priesthood still was there in Babylon. Hebrews even slams that priesthood when he wrote:

HEB 11:13 All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth. 14 People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. 15 If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 Instead, they were longing for a better country--a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.

Abraham left that area to be a wanderer, he didn't go back. Ezekial did, and that priesthood stayed there.

I'm pretty sure that the book of Revelation, which is so incomprehensible to normal people was exactly understood by the Babylonian priesthood. I don't think it was meant for general circulation.

reply to post by pthena

Judges 17:5; led to a Danite slaughter.

So much for the idea of a holy Israel.

Judges 19-20 Near extinction of tribe of Benjamin due to Levite incitement.

So, the point of Judges is, if we just had a temple and a king. It looks like a slanted history to support what did come about, so is not a true documentary, but a propaganda piece to rewrite history, made to be what would have been accepted at the time (a long time later than the purported events) as being a documentary.

reply to post by jmdewey60

There were lots of Christians who never wanted the OT put into the canon and felt it was bad.

That's silly. For every OT prophecy dealing with Christ's first coming there are 7-8 dealing with His 2nd coming.

reply to post by NOTurTypical
You should try reading more than your own propaganda.

just to make clear the invisible audible voice I heard did'nt say He was any other name except "I am Jesus.." and was as soon as I had begun to open the cover of a Gideon New Testament so all others take a back seat as one could imagine

the old covenant is represented by Mt.Sinai (Galatians 4 and various other scriptures) and is symbolic to me at least, not just anything before the new covenant page of the bible, recall Jesus saying "you think by studying the scriptures you have eternal life these are the scriptures that bear witness of me" recorded in the new one about the old ones that bears witness to what He heard from the Father that the disciples put together? regardless majority of the NT uses them extensively to get across realities and two Grand later were still argueing over the meaning of the "Sabbath" so there is room for debate before were all arrested then murdered for eating something on it

Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
1Peter

and then theres this

God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
Hebrews1

does this seem peculiar to anyone else?

Go, shut thyself within thine house. But thou, O son of man, behold, they shall put bands upon thee, and shall bind thee with them, and thou shalt not go out among them: And I will make thy tongue cleave to the roof of thy mouth, that thou shalt be dumb, and shalt not be to them a reprover: for they are a rebellious house. But when I speak with thee, I will open thy mouth, and thou shalt say unto them
Ezekiel3

He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.
Isaiah42

Jesus quoting-
He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man hear his voice in the streets.
Matthew12

on top of all that there this

And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written.
John21

reply to post by jmdewey60

It looks like a slanted history to support what did come about, so is not a true documentary, but a propaganda piece to rewrite history, made to be what would have been accepted at the time (a long time later than the purported events) as being a documentary.

The point is, that the Israelite are the Caananites. Yahwism was never the official state religion until Hezekiah's reign, after the Assyrian deportation of the Samarians . Remember, after other people were brought in, Assyria sent Levites in to teach about the "local gods" because of all the lions. Perhaps Levites are Assyrians?

The Exodus is pure myth. The great empire of Solomon is pure myth. The Book of the Law started "being discovered" in the temple during Josiah's(?) reign.

The thing about Ezekiael is that he gives zero chance and zero hope for the city and it's people. The great sin that Jerusalem is going to get destroyed for is the terrible "idolatry" which had actually been ended many years before, starting with Hezekiah. So there is absolutely nothing that the people could do, or refrain from doing which would save them. Nothing. Is that the kind of message any decent god would give?

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

You should try reading more than your own propaganda.

I do, I have cookbooks. But tell me why a Christian would want to do away with the OT it has substantially more prophecies concerning His 2nd coming than His first.

reply to post by Rustami

does this seem peculiar to anyone else?

Go, shut thyself within thine house. But thou, O son of man, behold, they shall put bands upon thee, and shall bind thee with them, and thou shalt not go out among them: And I will make thy tongue cleave to the roof of thy mouth, that thou shalt be dumb, and shalt not be to them a reprover: for they are a rebellious house. But when I speak with thee, I will open thy mouth, and thou shalt say unto them
Ezekiel3

Ezekiel is called that, son of man, through the whole book.
The son of man that was the one who went to the ancient of days, was in Daniel. There it is someone he sees in vision who has an appearance of being a son of man, meaning an ordinary person, as opposed to an angel who, for the purpose of addressing a man like Daniel, takes the form of a man.
I don't know if there is any illusion to a saviour in Ezekiel, but more the sort of telling them they will not be saved untill after they really suffer a lot. And what you were quoting sounds like more of that type of thing that the god of Ezekiel is on purpose preventing any actual useful prophecy which would lead the people to repentance.
Jesus compares his own listeners to who god prevents from understanding, according to Ezekiel. I have to wonder if Jesus is comparing Satan to that god who Ezekiel was getting all these negative messages from.
Like what pthena was saying earlier, if there was a gospel that came right out and said that like Judas who was well thought of, turned out to be of the devil, that here was a supposed prophet in the Jew's canon who was of Satan. Such a gospel would have been destroyed. That seems likely enough, to me.

reply to post by jmdewey60
Remember the warning Jesus gave his disciples before his departure about someone showing up after him would be speaking in his own name(in John). And the lovers of the OT "god" and Law like to say was a warning against Paul. Several threads actually on ATS referring to it.

Here's the guy who showed immediately after Jesus,

LK 24:13 Now that same day two of them were going to a village called Emmaus, about seven miles from Jerusalem. 14 They were talking with each other about everything that had happened. 15 As they talked and discussed these things with each other, Jesus himself came up and walked along with them; 16 but they were kept from recognizing him.
. . .
LK 24:25 He said to them, "How foolish you are, and how slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Did not the Christ have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?" 27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.

And so, Christianity has ever after been saddled with the whole Old Testament.

edit by poster to remove irrelevant material

reply to post by jmdewey60


well first of all I don't see the problem your having with NuT doctrinely or otherwise, you both have mentioned very similar views but anyway that chapter 3 seems to speak of two comings and that last part seemed strange because he's speaking to the people shut inside his house, so ancient technology, bullhorn? remember Jesus/Isaiah say does'nt cry out and no hearing voice in the streets the son of man seems clear enough when considering Stephen looking to the heavens before being stoned makes me think of the Jerusalem above or we who are many make up one body

reply to post by pthena

he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.

Slow of heart, or whatever,he calls them (very Ezekiel-like terms or conditions), as if at some time he had already explained all this, then at this moment, he unblocks their ability to understand, as he goes over all of it, again.
He does make a few cryptic references to why he had to do some things. Most of the tie-ins to prophecy was done by the writers, as side notes to the main story. So this character who shows up not looking like Jesus but talking about himself as if he was Jesus, is referring to something we don't know about (his earlier explaining of prophecy to his disciples) by talking about prophecies we know nothing about (as in not being able to find them in the OT).

reply to post by Rustami
The problem is there is no conversation.
Nothing affects him by anything I say. I might as well have said nothing.
All it is is little opportunities to paste in some more doctrinal material, regardless of what I was actually saying, he just changes a bit of what I said, to introduce his newest bit of spam, with no regard to honest dialogue.

Just one last comment and I'll probably have to stop before really straying into Christian territory.

Paul spent 2 years in Rome, under house arrest, awaiting execution. In those two years of virtual solitude, meaning he wasn't visiting any synagogues trying to prove anything out of the OT, surely he wrote a letter or two, in the clearest, free from OT influence possible. Why is it then that all we end up with is three verifiable forgeries, namely I & II Timothy and Titus?

I actually had a dream about two years ago, of looking in an old tomb, sweating in the dark, dust sticking to my skin and clothes making a sticky mud. I was looking for the missing manuscripts of Paul. But I never found them.

I do think that the closest we'll get to a non Judeo Christianity is Hebrews, Gospel of John, Colossians(most likely written by a Gentile convert, maybe with Paul's permission to use his name)

reply to post by jmdewey60


if there is anyone here that does'nt conversate it is most definately me, I'm a bit retarded in the writing area

do you, pthena or whoever know any history in original writings where YA or Ya used to appear before Yah or Yahweh? or anything relative to YA period? Leo (whats her name) and someone a while back had mentioned something in a thread that really got my attention, just curious and is somewhat related to other languages like Ya'cov or Ya'RuSalem which I see no problem with it's when they say only Yiddish or Greek matters, it's a secret or Jesus means (fill in the blank with a lie) when it becomes an issue