Are Chinese Restaurants the Key to the Next "Red Dawn"?

Originally posted by randomname
you'd have to be crazy to think there aren't chinese intelligence agents operating in the u.s. but i think they have better things to do than serve duck rolls in moose creek, arkansas.

I don't seriously think every one of them is a plant, but I do think it's worth the discussion to look at the possibility that there could be a network of plants...

To OP.

You really think US government would not detain most of these chinese, or put them on observation?
It's pretty obvious what they would do.

It might have been said in the last 5 pages but...

I've been to a lot of small towns and have eaten more than my fair share of Chinese.

A huge percentage of the restaurants I went to were not owned/run by Chinese people. They were mostly non-Chinese Asian families. Most have been from Laos, Vietnam, or S Korea.

So...that make this moot.

Moot?

US gov detained like thousands of japanese during WWII, no matter if they were spies or ordinary people.

What you failed to mention is that many Chinese restaurants are staffed by illegal Chinese immigrants who have fled China to come to the U.S. There is a huge network of these people and their traffickers - have you ever noticed in your small town where there are no Chinese people, suddenly the new Chinese place opens up and there are 25 Chinese who can't speak a word of English running around back there? Where did they come from?

No offense, but I think the idea is ridiculous. And this won't be the "next" Red Dawn. Fantasy movies don't count as an actual event.

If they had invaded to a point where they were THAT spread out over the country, they could use any handy restaurant.. school.. hospital.. whatever.. for their "bases" of operation. Saying they would use Chinese restaurants becaues they are Chinese is borderline racist, imo. Would be like saying America would use McDonalds as bases of operation in a foreign country. Rather silly.. yes?

to be honest they do not need to spy through any means like that. we are openly willing to teach their youth and fund their companies help their companies get established here and educate their college student.. they have all the information they need on us. the positive side of this, and i am sorry if i sound naive, is that the open sharing of technology and information and create economical and even cultural bonds that could nearly permanent peace.

heard rumours of a new pet being introduced by secondhand stores in chinatown regions worldwide.starts as a cute warbling mini monkey/kitten type thing,but beware it multiplies when wet,prefers nocturnal environments and will transform to a hideous reptile/bald ewok hybrid when fed after a certain point in its daily schedule...
you heard it here first

ps be on the lookout for 200ft tall confectionary based golem with a sailor hat

pps factory recall of delorean sportscars after "problem with onboard digital clock" at 88mph

reply to post by Aliensun


To GNCNEW:

All this thread is designed to do is to spread more ignorance and the ideology of racial hatred in the form of fear. Your arguments are hardly thought out and really do little other than to convey data in a misleading and circumstantial way.

You argue that "I'm actually surprised at the quick and large negative reaction. If I'd posted something UFO's using Chinese restaurants as launch pads - probably would have gotten stars and flags. But an intel gathering network... now that's just crazy!"

Actually it's not. This site doesn't promote what you're pushing. Hate on UFOs and aliens and conspiracies....not a race of people. What you're purporting is simply racism, again based drawing circumstantial conclusions from public data. Let's look at this in more sensical way:

1)People in China have an average annual income of $7k per year. If you had to travel hundreds, if not thousands of miles to work 7 days a week to earn $7k per year, wouldn't you want a way out to find a better life? The wealth concentration is worse in China than it is in the US. If you were basically told that this is all you will earn and there's no possibility that you can earn more without significant hardship, what would you do? Have you ever been to China? Do you personally know anyone's particular story on how they got here and why? Have you also bothered to learn just how hard it is to come to the US? Honestly, it's not easy. As a citizen, I don't take my liberties and freedom for granted and have seen just how hard it is for others to come here.

2)Barriers to entry opening a restaurant are the least in comparison to other forms of small enterprise. It's also the cheapest. If you were an immigrant, with little capital on hand and few avenues to raising additional capital for an entrepreneurial effort, what would you do? Given little or no hiring opportunities locally in traditional white collar or blue collar jobs, there are really no other alternatives for work other than to go into business for oneself. Isn't that the American dream? Small business, the "pull yourself up by your bootstraps", taking responsibility for oneself? People crucify them for not assimilating, yet when they do the one thing that empowers self determination, they are vilified because there are so many. Is this any different from the Irish, Italian, polish, jewish, or south american immigrants that come to the USA? Same hate, same small minded BS.

3)China already has a very sophisticated network of internet hacks. Any intelligence that's important enough to gather is already being done online. You state that the only reliable information was from boots on the ground. You're referring to the US capabilities. Do you know what the Chinese intelligence capabilities are? And you assume they are the same, if not worse, than our own intelligence capabilities? 1 word for you...Iraq.

4)With ever increasing numbers of western educated PhDs, in every major discipline including agriculture, economics, engineering, computer sciences, medicine, finance, etc......you're talking chinese restaurants? Why waste the money on such an infrastructure when it's just as easy to place highly qualified people in high profile intelligence targets via simple employment? It's already been done and I'm sure continues with every other country including Russia and Israel, not just China. Besides, it's just cheaper to gather information from the net (see number 3).

5)China, although divesting, is still the number 1 holder of US treasuries. Our economic interests are directly tied with theirs. Yes they are a growing threat economically, but honestly, would you bite the hand that feeds you? Especially given that any military action against would immediately bankrupt yourself? Think about that one for a second. Behind US treasuries, China has european sovereign debt purchases in the Greek, Italian, Spanish and UK bond markets. Given the amount of turmoil europe and the euro is in currently, they need the US more than ever.

I will admit that your thesis has the realm of possibility, but not much probability given other alternatives. I will also admit that the reasons I put forth are just the tip of the iceberg in terms of the number of reasons why your reasoning is just plain flawed.

You state you were in the military, more specifically in intelligence. Red Dawn? Chinese Restaurants? Seriously??? I'm not sure posting that information is something to be proud of.

Originally posted by piotrburz
To OP.

You really think US government would not detain most of these chinese, or put them on observation?
It's pretty obvious what they would do.

How? How would you detain Chinese people - especially if they're nothing more than sleepers gathering seemingly innocuous information?

Chin called his brother Xian last month and told him that they're building a new interstate overpass through town and it's causing a lot of traffic jams but when it's done it will make getting from St. Louis to Nashville MUCH easier.

You arrest them for that?

Or how about Ming calling her cousin back in China to complain that no one has the money to east out in East Lansing Michigan any more because all the local manufacturing plants (btw - the ones that make Kevlar body armor plating) have closed since they lost their contracts.

You arresting her for it?

You're not thinking big picture. Intel gathering is putting together seemingly innocent and useless pieces of information into a comprehensive picture.

Originally posted by WickettheRabbit
It might have been said in the last 5 pages but...

I've been to a lot of small towns and have eaten more than my fair share of Chinese.

A huge percentage of the restaurants I went to were not owned/run by Chinese people. They were mostly non-Chinese Asian families. Most have been from Laos, Vietnam, or S Korea.

So...that make this moot.

I've not seen that. I've seen them named other things than "China Garden" or whatever.

But again, we're going off of a conspiracy theory here - so "most" and "some" that "I've seen" don't really count to either solidify or debunk a theory.

Originally posted by AwakeinNM
What you failed to mention is that many Chinese restaurants are staffed by illegal Chinese immigrants who have fled China to come to the U.S. There is a huge network of these people and their traffickers - have you ever noticed in your small town where there are no Chinese people, suddenly the new Chinese place opens up and there are 25 Chinese who can't speak a word of English running around back there? Where did they come from?

Bingo. And better yet, how did they get through so easily? We have Reality TV shows about our Border patrol agents for the Mexican border...

But Chinese people have to come through either sea or air....

Oh wait - unless they're coming through our borders too!!!

Originally posted by javajunkie
reply to post by Aliensun

 

To GNCNEW:

All this thread is designed to do is to spread more ignorance and the ideology of racial hatred in the form of fear. Your arguments are hardly thought out and really do little other than to convey data in a misleading and circumstantial way.


I will admit that your thesis has the realm of possibility, but not much probability given other alternatives. I will also admit that the reasons I put forth are just the tip of the iceberg in terms of the number of reasons why your reasoning is just plain flawed.

You state you were in the military, more specifically in intelligence. Red Dawn? Chinese Restaurants? Seriously??? I'm not sure posting that information is something to be proud of.

Ok, first things first. When I talk of Chinese spy networks - it is not a racial thing. It's a nationality thing.

I have no issue with Asian people, and in fact I really don't have an issue with Chinese people. I do think that the Chinese government sees the United States as a threat and acts accordingly.

If I were to replace "Chinese" with "Russian" would it still be racist? If not, then this is a straw man argument meant to deflect the subject.

I actually becoming a little suspect of the aggressive debunking of this theory. There are plenty more completely implausible theories and threads throughout this site.

Yet this one has attracted enough attention from debunkers to make somebody wonder. Usually if you hold no stock in something - you simply ignore it. But instead - posters like yourself have decide to put effort in showing why this couldn't possibly be true.

Lastly - if you read the post - you'll notice that the title was using allegory to convey a point that can't be communicated in few enough words to fit in a thread title.

Thus I used the title to convey the concept that I would cover in the actual post.

YOU HAVE TO READ THE POST before you can begin to comment on it. I get the distinct feeling you expect me to ready your essay of a response while you didn't take the time to actually read the post itself.

Originally posted by javajunkie
reply to post by Aliensun

 

1)People in China have an average annual income of $7k per year. If you had to travel hundreds, if not thousands of miles to work 7 days a week to earn $7k per year, wouldn't you want a way out to find a better life?

They don't travel hundreds or thousands of miles to work. They move. People do it every day in the U.S.
AND
$7k/day in China is worth quite a bit more than it would be in the U.S. - They force the devaluation of their currency against ours. Their prices are not as high as ours. That's why Walmart is cheap.

2)Barriers to entry opening a restaurant are the least in comparison to other forms of small enterprise. It's also the cheapest. If you were an immigrant, with little capital on hand and few avenues to raising additional capital for an entrepreneurial effort, what would you do?

I'd probably do what the Mexican's do... I'd find a manual labor job that would pay me cash under the table. I probably wouldn't invest the large amounts of money involved to get the commercial grade deep fryers, ovens, washers, stove tops, deep freeze coolers, and food supplies for a reasturant.

You are making my point more for me. Most of the local take out places ARE NOT able to make serious cash. At least not in the rural areas. Think about it - Lets say an average order is $30. In a rural area they're going to do probably 20 orders a day on weekdays. That's $600 a day. They double that on the weekends. So you've got $5400 a week for a grand total of $21,600 a month. Take out their rent ($3000), insurance ($200), cost of supplies ($10,000), Utilities and such ($1,000), employee salaries (always have at least 3 cooking - $2,500).

They've got $4,900 a month left - before taxes. $3675 after taxes. Take out their house payment of $700/month, home utilities, groceries, cars, etc for another $1,500 a month.

Now you're down to $1475 a month. You still have to pay the business loan you took out to get all that stuff in your restaurant. You're looking at a business loan of probably upwards of a cool $100k. Guess what the payments are on that bad boy... you just went into the red.

There are a lot of ways to make the American dream happen - a take out restaurant in po-dunk USA isn't one of them.

3)China already has a very sophisticated network of internet hacks. Any intelligence that's important enough to gather is already being done online.

Considering the US invented the internet - don't you think we'd be applying a clean and efficient "Hackers Only" intel policy if it really was that effective?

4)With ever increasing numbers of western educated PhDs, in every major discipline including agriculture, economics, engineering, computer sciences, medicine, finance, etc......you're talking chinese restaurants? Why waste the money on such an infrastructure when it's just as easy to place highly qualified people in high profile intelligence targets via simple employment?

Again, you didn't read the post. Intel isn't just about the next super jet being built or the coolest optical camouflage. Often it's about political nuances and infrastructure choke points you can only analyze from the ground up. See number 3.

5)China, although divesting, is still the number 1 holder of US treasuries. Our economic interests are directly tied with theirs. Yes they are a growing threat economically, but honestly, would you bite the hand that feeds you?

I would if it was about to default and leave me holding a bunch of useless paper

I will admit that your thesis has the realm of possibility, but not much probability given other alternatives. I will also admit that the reasons I put forth are just the tip of the iceberg in terms of the number of reasons why your reasoning is just plain flawed.

You're a brand new ATS member....

Just like half of the other debunkers.

Like I said.. funny how many of you non-active ATS folks showed up here to debunk it.

You state you were in the military, more specifically in intelligence. Red Dawn? Chinese Restaurants? Seriously??? I'm not sure posting that information is something to be proud of.

I would not be surprised if there is some sort of intelligence network via these restaurants (the Chinese also use supposedly private corporations as fronts for PLA activities in Africa and Latin America). That being said there is also a large amount of organized crime also involved in these restaurants as well. It's similar to what the Italian Mafia did (and still does on a much reduced level) with shakedowns.

I live in a town of 28,000 people and we have about 8 Chinese restaurants and only 3 national fast food chain locations - 1 McDonald's, 1 Subway, and 1 Quiznos. Each community on Long Island, even those on the more rural East End where there are NO chain fast food locations, is GUARANTEED to have at least 2 Chinese restaurants. We used to have a McDonald's Express and a Taco Bell Express but those 2 went out of business despite a large sales volume but yet somehow the 8 Chinese restaurants who get maybe 20 customers a day stay in business?

McDonald's Express and Taco Bell Express are smaller sized locations that one would find in a shopping mall or an airport food court except in my town they were in a strip mall. I have yet to encounter any others like this and I suspect it's relatively uncommon.

reply to post by gncnew


Okay I'll give your point of view may not be racist, however it is misguided. You're facts are just plain wrong.

to reply: If I were to replace "Chinese" with "Russian" would it still be racist?

Yes. Again, we saw this with the Irish, the Italians, the Jews, etc at the turn of the century.

Large numbers of chinese (about 1/3) migrate to urban centers every year and travel home for the new year. Of that number, approx 90-130 million are migrant workers who travel to urban centers where the jobs are, often moving from city to city depending on where the work is. This is well known and document but for your own reference Ive added just a couple of MANY references available:

marriottschool.net...

and

www.latimes.com...

Most are in steady jobs and live in housing provided by the employer for a monthly fee. The average chinese worker cannot possibly afford to buy a home in major cities (Beijing, Shanghai, Hong Kong, etc) as the prices rival that of New York City, Boston, or San Francisco. It's simply not an option because it's too darn expensive (could you live in NY on 7k/month)?

The average person in China spends 40% on food, with an additional 40% on housing. That leaves 8% on healthcare and 12% on travel, savings and personal expenditures. So it's literally a no brainer in that wanting to leave for a better life. You actually made my point very clear on your reply in terms of breakdown of possible revenue of operating a restaurant in the US.

"They've got $4,900 a month left - before taxes. $3675 after taxes. Take out their house payment of $700/month, home utilities, groceries, cars, etc for another $1,500 a month. Now you're down to $1475 a month. You still have to pay the business loan you took out to get all that stuff in your restaurant. You're looking at a business loan of probably upwards of a cool $100k."

First of all lets use your figures, $100k loan over 30 years at 6% equates to a little over $600/month. even at 10% you're still talking $800. Now I know it's simple math but....I figure $800 left over is a bit better than $583/mo. that the average worker earns.

You go on to state: There are a lot of ways to make the American dream happen - a take out restaurant in po-dunk USA isn't one of them. This the most illustrative point you've stated that actually articulates what I'm trying to say to you. It's your point of view (which you are absolutely entitled to) but your logic just isn't sound.

as for your comment on what you would do: I'd probably do what the Mexican's do... I'd find a manual labor job that would pay me cash under the table. Um....dude...and anyone else on this forum....how many chinese folks have you see wearing hard hats and working manual labor? This isn't an argument of why, it just is a fact that I've encountered exactly 0.

As for your comment on
Considering the US invented the internet - don't you think we'd be applying a clean and efficient "Hackers Only" intel policy if it really was that effective? To answer your question, the Pentagon just lost 24,000 files just the other day to hacks

mashable.com...

and
www.thedailybeast.com...

If you want to start a serious thread about espionage networks, try starting with what we already know.

The Chinese have already infiltrated numerous industries and many have been caught. Below is a link listing no less than 12 cases of espionage since 2007:

www.washingtonpost.com...

Seriously, how on earth is a restaurant worker going to get the details that matter. You state that:Often it's about political nuances and infrastructure choke points you can only analyze from the ground up.

As the article above points out, these spies were caught in places that matter....places a restaurant worker would have little or no exposure to in a big city let alone po dunk, fly over USA territory. The infiltrated companies were defense contractors, communications, nuclear power and engineering companies. Let's see...that's our net, our phones, our roads, our territorial waters, our nuclear power grid.....am I missing anything?

Ask yourself why they would set up a network like you posit. To what end would that information serve? Invasion? Good luck! Logistically they couldn't pull it off. They're armed forces, although improving dramatically, just simply cannot support such an endeavor. Not now, not in 20 years. If they want resources, Australia is much closer and has more resources they need/want, far less population, and no 2nd amendment. Do they want to cripple the US? Well everyone and their mother knows they wouldn't have to fire a single bullet to do that. All they'd have to do is sell off all their securities and it's goodbye USA. See ya, wouldn't wanna be ya. You thought 2008 was bad? it would 2008 x 1000 in terms of economic impact. The capital markets would dry up in hours depraving our economy of any liquidity....heck...there would be no economy left if they did that.

Would it be for destabilizing counter intelligence to provide better footing in negotiations, treaties, etc? You hardly need a network of restaurant workers to do that.

As for the worthless paper that is US Treasury bonds (won't argue with you on the worth), name another global financial instrument that is as large and (for now) as safe to handle the trillions in reserves? It's the best of the lot of them. Swiss bonds? They don't issue nearly enough. Gold? They're buying by the ton already. Silver? Same. Oil? They're gobbling up every drop they can get their hands on. Why do you think the yields on the 5 and 10 years haven't skyrocketed like those of Italy, Spain and Greece (soon to be Portugal and Ireland)? It's still a safe haven and will continue to be until/unless we default. Again, my point being they need us.

The debunking of your theory isn't about the theory itself, it's about the fact that it's not thought out very well. You can do better than supposition and conjecture. come up with hard facts and figures based upon real research and I think your theory would be better received, otherwise you sound like somebody who's been watching....well....red dawn too many times.

reply to post by gncnew


Well let them try to take the country. OK EMP bomb goes off and takes out electronics, oh no cell phones down, internet gone, no tv, and chinese are invading, sounds like a Red Dawn situation. Let them try, the South will rise again!

reply to post by javajunkie


Too much to quote, but just a couple FYI:
1. Business loans and 30 year fixed rate mortgages are not the same thing. Do the math again.
2. Hackers gain lots of useful info - but 24k files do not a complete picture make. Your trying to argue the point with non-related facts.

You just joined yesterday... Yet your really ready to go toe to toe here to debunk? Why? Why here and now?

reply to post by gncnew


Yeah , Chinese Resturants Everywhere ....Tell Me About it ! ...........



i297.photobucket.com...

reply to post by gncnew


A serious flaw in your reasoning : Many of the Chinese restaurants in the US are actually ran by Vietnamese, Korean, Japanese, etc... I used to work at one ran by a Vietnamese family. If they ever do anything to take over the US, I would be quite surprised.