I don't think theists understand that we just don't believe...

reply to post by Blue_Jay33


reply to post by xxsomexpersonxx


You guys both need to read more carefully. Madness passed some beers to the director of studies (a woman) who is an atheist and knows how to separate HER professional life from HER personal life.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
Fun times, but I didn't drink them all. Passed a few over to the director of studies, also a crazy atheist like myself who knows how to separate her professional life from her personal one.

Just for clarity.

reply to post by IsleptIdreamt


You wrote:

["Perhaps this standard of "organized universe" is only a brief moment of chaos that includes concepts that diverege from existence and nonexistence in a way that our bandwith-limited animal minds can't even concieve."]

That's what I speculatively operate with, but I certainly don't throw the baby of science/logic/objectivity out with the bathwater to fill the unknown with fantasies.

Quote: ["Despite these worries, the scientific method is a good way to find small answers."]

I wouldn't call the observation of order in cosmos 'small'.

Quote: ["Belief in the Scientific Process is belief in a measuring tool."]

It's a bit more than that.

It is not order in the cosmos I find small, it is the impact of human observation. A clock is meaninless to an animal or a galaxy, and yet humans build society around it. A clock doesn't further our understanding of what 'time' itself is. It can give us clues as to things such as gravity, or a black hole where time distorts. The next step then would be to invent a new clock, a new ruler to measure the black hole. Faith that this rudimentary measurement only useful to mankind is small. Function of the cosmos is not small at all.

reply to post by IsleptIdreamt


You wrote:

["It is not order in the cosmos I find small, it is the impact of human observation."]

'Scientism', the doctrinal version of science, is luckily disappearing. Remember that science hasn't had that much time to function freely. The results are not bad, considering that.

Quote: ["A clock is meaninless to an animal or a galaxy, and yet humans build society around it."]

That's the choice of societal mankind. Not a command from science.

Quote: ["A clock doesn't further our understanding of what 'time' itself is."]

That's what Niels Bohr said also.

Quote: ["The next step then would be to invent a new clock, a new ruler to measure the black hole."]

It's not little, what you ask. But they are working at it at the cutting edge, though I believe it will take a long time to arrive there.

As a Christian, I read that Jesus says..."go and be fishers of men."

That means I offer the opportunity to join me in a Christian event, a dinner, an outing, maybe a camping trip or white water and then out for pizza...or more directly, I invite you to come to a worship service....the point is I offer it...and you have the opportunity to say...No, Thank You.

Just like a fisherman...I offer the bait...the fish can either bite or pass.

Now the problem, in my opinion, is when we become hunters of men...basically hitting some one over the head and telling them they are going to Hell if they don't change and come to church.

Fishers...not hunters..of men...straight from Jesus. remember, He offered opportunity to many and many refused and He didn't get all bent out of shape...He was like..OK, your loss but I'll still give you some fish and loaves if you want...come on when your ready.

reply to post by AlreadyGone


You wrote:

["Just like a fisherman...I offer the bait...the fish can either bite or pass."]

No offence, but it's YOUR allegory.

Why is a bait needed? People searching for a truth etc., can easily find you, when they start searching. There's no-one, who hasn't heard the christian message a thousand times (possibly with the exception of some isolated tribes, who actually need some protection from zealous missionaries, who can topple their culture).

It's YOUR idea, that your message is needed.

reply to post by madnessinmysoul


I have seen similar behavior from Atheists. They simply believe that Christians are idiots because they DO believe. Now, I can understand maybe feeling that way about fundamentalists, but not all believers. The Atheists that behave this way just don't understand what Faith really is to some people. If you are so hung up on science, you should know that some things that could not be explained by science in the past are now becoming explainable. So, perhaps someday science will have evidence of God in same form. Perhaps not. I find many Atheists to be just as dogmatic in their arguments as Theists can be. Truth is, at this time, whether a God exists or not simply cannot known. No empirical evidence can prove one way or the other. It may be best to take an Agnostic approach, rather than staunchly defend something outside the current epistemology.

reply to post by stonergeek


I just love 'Rhapsody in blue' in the version conducted and played by Bernstein. The syncopation gives me shivers of thrill still after 15 years of listening.

I don't need to analyse it, break it down in reductionist materialism looking for chemicals to explain it or to put it into any reference-frame whatsoever.

Many subjective experiences can be like that. Possibly a personal faith has a similar effect.

But darn it, if I would expect the whole world to like 'Rhapsody in blue', and darn it, if somebody feels it necessary to tell everybody about it constantly and triple-darn it, if it done at gunpoint (as some people sometimes like to 'share' their own preferences with the world).

reply to post by madnessinmysoul

I don't think theists understand that we just don't believe.

its not that we Christians dont understand that you atheists just dont believe. Its more like us Christians cant comprehend why atheists would not want to believe. can you please explain this to me?

reply to post by graphuto

Originally posted by graphuto
3 threads in 2 days back to back bashing religion.

I'm sorry, but how am I bashing religion here? I'm attacking human thought processes, I even called out atheists on it.

Yea, you're lookin for something. You won't find it.

Man, there are so many damn holy psychologists on here.

reply to post by graphuto

Originally posted by graphuto
What privileges do we have?

In the USA? Well....

Want to get out of prison earlier? Christianity!
Want to get more votes in an election? Christianity!
Want to claim moral superiority? Christianity!

We're persecuted and looked down on by almost everyone.

Yeah, holding on to the vast majority of the world's wealth, political power, military might, and societal influence is such a persecution. I'd love to be in any group that's so 'persecuted'.

Hell, in the USA and many other western nations you are the majority.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/7d203a5d549c.gif[/atsimg]

He will, and it will be too late. I'll bet you'll remember all these threads in which you vehemently denied his existence.

...this is the whole point of this damn thread! I'm not denying, I'm unconvinced. I truly do not believe and cannot will myself to believe no matter how hard I try. I could be convinced by evidence, reason, or (incredibly conclusive) experience.

reply to post by Theophorus


This is a far more useful question, star for you. Let me try my best to explain it.

Want has nothing to do with it. I neither do or do not want to believe in a deity, I merely want to believe in that which is supported by evidence. So far as what I have been exposed to, there is no evidence to believe in any deity. I wouldn't mind if these things were true, I just don't see any reason to believe that they are.

Want plays as much of a part in my evaluation of religion as it does in my evaluation of science. I don't particularly want to believe that F=ma...but it's true. I don't reject the idea of geocentrism because I don't want to believe it, it merely doesn't fit with the evidence.

Hope that cleared things up.

reply to post by stonergeek


Well, I did call out atheists on this as well, take a look towards the last third of the OP. For a discussion on how most 'agnostics' are actually atheists, come to this clusterfornication of a thread.

reply to post by bogomil


Everybody knows there are Fords and Chevys...why advertise.

Everybody knows smoking may kill you... why remind people?

Everybody knows exercise is good for you... why promote the lifestyle?

Everybody has heard of Christ...why witness to others?

Because Jesus told us to...He further offered us His example. And no...not everybody has heard of Christ. And many that have heard of Christ don't know Christ.

Being fishers of men is an analogy Jesus gave to Christians... and anyone else that may come to follow Him. In that line of thought, I used the word bait. We don't really need bait... but some people have been disenchanted by those that proclaim to be Christians, when in fact they are not... not in the teachings of Jesus Christ.

As such, we offer people an opportunity to re-examine who Chritians are.... again, it may be a function, an activity, a meal, a social gathering. Some do come and some decline. That is their choice.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
reply to post by TechUnique

 

I'm sorry, but there isn't a grammatical error in my thread title. I'm sure Vicky32, a fellow English teacher, can back me up on this.

Sure, it's a complicated sentence, not the most succinct way of putting it, but the grammar is there. The ellipses are there for poetic effect, so I get a grammar pass on not ending my sentence with a fullstop.

Yes, it's perfectly correct, I'll back you up on that....
Vicky

Originally posted by sprocket2cog
Its funny i think that all views have merit there is no right or wrong, there just is
Australia actually accepts atheism as a religious stand point..
makes you think..

In 1983, the High Court of Australia defined religion as a complex of beliefs and practices which point to a set of values and an understanding of the meaning of existence. The ABS 2001 Census Dictionary defines "No Religion" as a category of religion which has subcategories such as agnosticism, atheism, Humanism and rationalism.

en.wikipedia.org...

It's the same in New Zealand. No biggie...
Vicky

reply to post by Vicky32


That dosnt surprise me
us little people across the pond are actually fairly progressive
i didnt know New Zealand had the same policy
thanks mate.

Originally posted by Theophorus
reply to post by madnessinmysoul

 

I don't think theists understand that we just don't believe.

its not that we Christians dont understand that you atheists just dont believe. Its more like us Christians cant comprehend why atheists would not want to believe.

can you please explain this to me?

The proper word would be 'need', not 'want'.

Most people have some curiousity, at least at one point in their lives, there's something in us wanting answers. Some people can live without having all the answers (including the big ones), some can't.

When I was a young man, I could almost have panic from the thought of not finding the big answers. I have eventually disciplined myself to patience and to start from the beginning, working forward in knowledge step by step, instead of the prematurely chosen panic-answer.

In any case the pre-determined answer is uneconomical, being build on quicksand as it is. The energy needed to defend it (to yourself and other) is bigger than what's needed to find REAL answers.

reply to post by AlreadyGone


You wrote:

["Everybody knows there are Fords and Chevys...why advertise."]

Basically it's an effort to brainwash people, there's very little factual information in such commercials. Same as with your following examples. Then:

Quote: ["Everybody has heard of Christ...why witness to others? Because Jesus told us to...He further offered us His example. And no...not everybody has heard of Christ."]

I think, that your attitude better than anything else here demonstrates the OP: You guys don't understand!

The mesage: Many of us consider your message meaningless, stupid, ridiculous or even insane. Instead of letting go and accepting our rejection, some of you MUST 'prove' this message, and one explanation more impossible than the other is fabricated, adding to the impression of imbecile incompetence. You're trying to make fairytales REAL for educated western adults.

Your motive: Some allegedly supernatural guy told you to spread this message. It's YOUR supernatural guy, not ours. Do you think non-believers CARE about your mythological fantasies, and the self-appointed justification in them? Fanatics and elitists always give themselves special rights and privileges, it's an expression of a fascistic mindset; definitely not endearing you to anyone.

The method: It has escaped your attention and possibly your interest, that you're becoming increasingly impopular. My guess is, that your flagellantic guilt-ridden religion for slaves will be a minor sect in a hundred years, and a main reason for that is, that you are so invasive. Your self-righteousness is offensive and the 'it's for your own good' interference (when you get a chance) is waving a red flag.

Quote: ["And many that have heard of Christ don't know Christ"]

And....? They're probably better off without. YOU have decided what's best for other people, YOU push, manipulate or enforce it on people. Often with violence.

Nobody has asked you to, many tell you to put it, where the sun doesn't shine, but your maniacal drive to lead mankind makes you blind and deaf, so you go on to your own destruction.

Learn the difference between offering and invading. Maybe your religion will have a chance then (if it's not already too late).

reply to post by bogomil


My,my...we sound a bit aggitated. I offer explanations as to why we witness...I am not condemning...I am not demanding....

And then you insult me and my faith, you speak with a coy, smug, sense of superiority...

By doing so, you display just how happy and enlightened you really are. I remember in my "all knowing" youth when I was just as rational and critical and intelligent as you obviuosly are.

May your life be untainted by tragedy, so as to never need faith in God.