Where do dinosauars fit in religon ??

I usually get called a fool when i bring this up but I have always wondered.

These enormous creatures, dominated the planet long before man showed up and it seems to be dismissed.

My girlfriend goes to a Christian church and I had her ask about it. The answer she got was dinosauars exisited side by side with man, refered to as dragons and wiped from the planet in the flood. I told her to bring up that fossils date dinos millions of years back and all fossils are found beneath the KT boundary, which is strong evidance for a asteroid be responsible for thier demise. To that she basically got told that theory was Satans work trying to disprove God and the planet was only a few thousand years old.

I find that hard to believe. First, that modern man could coexist with such a dominating species. Also, if dinosauars were here first and God decided to rid the planet of them, shouldnt that important piece of history be brought up in the Bible?? Do any religons acknowledge that this planet was not created for human beings??

I know this is a sensitive area and not looking for conflict. But I've never heard a reasonable explanation for these creatures that ruled this world before us.

I thought It said in the book of Genesis, that giants once roamed the earth ?

They don't fit in. That's the whole stupid controversy.
I have literally heard people tell me that the fossils are a test of faith from God.
Or that we were made in seven days, but days to God are billions of years..

In my opinion, religious texts are simply mythological life lessons with scary, eternal consequences and/or explanations to questions that we cannot directly answer.

Dinosaurs existed.
What I don't understand is why most religions will not amend their zealous fundamentalism to include the idea that MAYBE their doctrines and dogma are manifestations of symbolic ideas, not literal history.

While they may or may not have existed at some point along with humans (most believe they did not), there are certain facts. One being that the planetary atmosphere that allowed these creatures to exist was vastly different than what it is today. Those kinds of changes do not happen within a few thousand years, it takes millions of years of changes on the earth.
Maybe this planet WAS created for us (human beings). But that doesn't mean it still didn't take millions of years for it to form to the proper conditions needed for our survival and prosperity. And dinosaurs existing for millions of years before us doesn't really contradict anything in the bible... What it DOES contradict is radical beliefs held by a small number of Christians that the earth is only 6,000 years old.

Good question OP, your mind is beginning to expand and it's normal to feel guilt. Now, before the Christians make a fool out of you when they ask why there are still monkeys if we evolved from monkeys, do your research on human evolution. That one always makes me laugh.

I have quite a few friends who are devout Christians. Every time dinosaurs are mentioned to most of them, the answer is, invariably, that the fossils were created by God as a test of faith. I get so tired of that answer, but apparently science and reason is the devil's work. As if the devil's work would be so easy to see if he's really the master trickster they make him out to be. Honestly, it wouldn't surprise me if the whole story of Christianity is reversed (not that I believe it either way). Think about it, if Satan had actually triumphed over God long ago... we'll, history is written by the victor and we all know how much horror and bloodshed has been in the name of "God." Then he would truly deserve the title of trickster.

Now watch all the Christians take shots at me for daring to use critical thinking.

reply to post by wildoracle13


Yes, and evolution does not mean we weren't created by god/higher beings. I find it kindof ridiculous that there's this big battle between evolutionists and creationists all the time.
Who is to say that God was not responsible for our evolution to the point we are at today?
Perhaps at some point in time we were given a spiritual connection to God, a soul if you will, at which point we became human and in likeness to God.

Just gonna jump in here and say that not ALL Christians deny dinosaurs exist, or believe in the seven-day creation. The Catholic Church has acknowledged that some parts of the Bible are not to be taken literally (including the Book of Genisis).

reply to post by jstanthrno1


Not a fool - you're trying to deny ignorance I like this question...then again I'm considered a heretic by all sides.

Yes, the bible does talk about various giant beasts (Leviathan in Job, dragons throughout, and so on - just let me know if you want quotes and will dig them up once home) - books that didn't make it into the bible also discuss these things, as do plenty of societies throughout history, some fairly recently.

There are even accounts of modern day dinosaurs - the congo has mokele-mbembe (which the natives keep identifying as a sauropod when shown sketches), the native americans had thunderbirds (pterosaurs), and so on. Saint George fought 'dragons' - and bigfoot and the like may be remnants of gigantopithecus!

I strongly don't think that all dinosaurs are dead - we've got great white sharks and crocodiles that were alive with the dinosaurs, and were convinced that coelocanth (spelling?) was extinct for millions of years as well - until fishermen started catching them. Most modern rendering of dinosaurs paint them more and more birdlike as well...perhaps the dinosaurs never actually went extinct

There's a documentary I'll recommend also, as I enjoyed it myself. As with anything, apply grains of salt as needed, but you can watch 'Dragons Or Dinosaurs: Creation Or Evolution' instantly online or on a gaming console if you've got a NetFlix account.

We can dig into the fun with fossils and stratification, etc., more as well, if you'd like to. Just let me know as I enjoy talking about all this even with people who disagree about it.

Be well!

reply to post by jstanthrno1

I find that hard to believe. First, that modern man could coexist with such a dominating species.

Not sure if you're aware of this or not, but 96% of the dinosaur fossils we have today are of reptiles under 2 feet tall. Hardly "dominating". Secondly, only 1% were "giants" like T-Rex, most likely man avoided them much like we avoid bears, tigers, and alligators today.

reply to post by warbird03

I have quite a few friends who are devout Christians. Every time dinosaurs are mentioned to most of them, the answer is, invariably, that the fossils were created by God as a test of faith.

That's an absurd reply to make and I'm a Christian saying this. The oldest book of the Bible Job speaks of both land-based and sea-based dinosaurs. The "behemoth" is described as the "chief" or greatest of God's creations with a tail as wide as a cedar tree.

Dragons or Dinosaurs

Historical accounts, dragon legends, ancient artwork all accurately describe dinosaurs from human history. And this is all from mankind prior to the 1800s before "science" found the first dinosaur fossil. Either this was the case of the greatest collection of prophetic artists and historians of all time or man did in fact see dinosaurs and put them in their artwork or historical accounts.

reply to post by warbird03

Every time dinosaurs are mentioned to most of them, the answer is, invariably, that the fossils were created by God as a test of faith.

Not invariably, no - or you don't talk to many christians (or a very narrow-minded subset of them!).

Fossils are fun. They definitely exist, and they certainly aren't some ridiculous test of faith. There's more than enough in this world to test our faith anyway.

A fact about fossils is that they require very specific conditions to form - more or less, a sudden burial in mud, etc. to keep them safe from oxygen so they don't break down. Even bone breaks down over a not-long period of time. Protected from the elements, minerals leach into the bones and other hard bits to effectively make them historically-available.

Our current understanding of geology is, honestly, quite possibly flawed. We assume a very gradualistic stratification as causing the layers we're used to in the study of our planet (for example, a river carrries sediment - over time, this sediment settles out or is deposited, leaving layers that we can analyze to find age/timeframes, etc.).

The problem that we have with this, though, is that there are all sorts of examples of anomalies. We have petrified trees, still standing, that go through MANY layers of rock. Please tell me you already see the problem here...with a gradualistic approach, there wouldn't been any tree left as the top of the tree would have long-since rotted away as the layers were being put down.

So, this suggests to some that perhaps stratification (geological layers) can form quickly - as we've actually seen science verify (I can try to dig up a source if needed - just let me know). Small/fine particles auto-sort to the bottom in turbulent situations, with larger bits up top. Sort of like a container of feta cheese when you shake it.

What about the radiometric (read: 'carbon') dating, you say? Well, the problem with radiometric dating is that there are too many variables. How do we know how much of a specific element was in a sample to start? How do we know how much of that element has been leached into or out of the sample during the time before we found it, as this can happen for various reasons? We've honestly even seen cases where the rate of decay for these elements seems to have been influenced by certain factors...so the dating is questionable at best (I also love conflicting results when trying to date different elements in the same sample).

Then there's the problem of how we try to date samples otherwise. Unfortunately, what we tend to run into with archeology is that we tend to date samples by what rock layer they were found in (already problematic)...but we also date rock layers by the age of the samples we find in them, based on our current understanding. Here we have a big "oops" of circular reasoning.

In my opinion, taking into account that fossils require quick removal from the atmosphere, stratification can be caused quickly by erosion/flooding, and the dates are in question - not to mention the fact that effectively ALL human cultures have a historical flood account - a flood scenario ties things together quite nicely.

Be well!

reply to post by Praetorius


I hope it's not this way in most places but yes, around here most religious leaders from various churches do believe that and because they believe it, most of their followers believe it too. Very few of them try to think for themselves.

Not sure if you're aware of this or not, but 96% of the dinosaur fossils we have today are of reptiles under 2 feet tall. Hardly "dominating". Secondly, only 1% were "giants" like T-Rex, most likely man avoided them much like we avoid bears, tigers, and alligators today.

Just because they're under 2 feet tall hardly means they're not dangerous. I would almost argue that the smaller ones were likely to be the most dangerous to humans. You would be guaranteed to know a Tyrannosaurus Rex was coming. Compsognathus would have been much more plentiful due to their size, extremely hard to detect for the same reason, and would be damn near impossible for a human to get away from because of the sheer number. Size isn't everything.

reply to post by warbird03

Just because they're under 2 feet tall hardly means they're not dangerous. I would almost argue that the smaller ones were likely to be the most dangerous to humans. You would be guaranteed to know a Tyrannosaurus Rex was coming. Compsognathus would have been much more plentiful due to their size, extremely hard to detect for the same reason, and would be damn near impossible for a human to get away from because of the sheer number. Size isn't everything.

And why wouldn't they react to mankind in the same manner reptiles are observed acting today? They either scurry away when they detect our presence or remain motionless hoping we wont notice them. Even large reptiles like alligators and crocodiles do this. What gives you reason to believe ancient reptiles would act differently than modern ones?

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Most reptiles today aren't carnivores, not intended to hunt down prey larger than an insect. Also, most animals today have developed a fear for humans so they try to stay away. If you suddenly introduced dinosaurs to the human population and they had no previous experiences with people, they would have no reason to run away. They would definitely develop that fear fast enough with todays humans though.

Originally posted by warbird03
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Most reptiles today aren't carnivores, not intended to hunt down prey larger than an insect.

Neither were dinosaurs. Even the large ones ate vegetation except for the extreme rare 1%.

Also, most animals today have developed a fear for humans so they try to stay away.

What reason do you have for believing dinosaurs didn't react in the same manner?

If you suddenly introduced dinosaurs to the human population and they had no previous experiences with people, they would have no reason to run away.

That just sounds like conjecture. What behavior from modern animals would lead you to assume ancient ones would act differently?

They would definitely develop that fear fast enough with todays humans though.

Arbitrary conjecture. I'm looking for a rational basis to believe what you do. Studying modern reptiles tells a far different story. Have you watched the videos? What do you think is the reason we have ancient records in historical writings and artworks from around the globe accurately describing "dragons/dinosaurs" from time period before the fist fossil was discovered in the 1800s.

Why do you think all these historical and artistic references exist from the past?

DInos weren't reptiles.
They were dinos, though they evolved from Reptiles. As did mammals.
Mammals and Dinos, AND reptiles Coexisted.
Dinos mostly met evolutionary dead ends, or were wiped by a big Asteroid..though some branches of dinos survived. We make omelets from their eggs, And stuff them for Thanksgiving..

The stage was set pretty well set, once the first land creatures found a diversity of niches to fill.
We have reptiles..That gave rise to Mammals Dinos, and eventually birds..and of course. Some reptiles still hang around.
Dinos and Mammals appeared at roughly the same time. Both after Reptiles. Perhaps Dinos a little earlier.

SO we still walk among them...Or sometimes have them on a sandwich.

Just my over simplified opinion, based on reading lots of things about Dinos.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by warbird03
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Most reptiles today aren't carnivores, not intended to hunt down prey larger than an insect.

Neither were dinosaurs. Even the large ones ate vegetation except for the extreme rare 1%.

Also, most animals today have developed a fear for humans so they try to stay away.

What reason do you have for believing dinosaurs didn't react in the same manner?

If you suddenly introduced dinosaurs to the human population and they had no previous experiences with people, they would have no reason to run away.

That just sounds like conjecture. What behavior from modern animals would lead you to assume ancient ones would act differently?

They would definitely develop that fear fast enough with todays humans though.

Arbitrary conjecture. I'm looking for a rational basis to believe what you do. Studying modern reptiles tells a far different story. Have you watched the videos? What do you think is the reason we have ancient records in historical writings and artworks from around the globe accurately describing "dragons/dinosaurs" from time period before the fist fossil was discovered in the 1800s.

Why do you think all these historical and artistic references exist from the past?

edit on 6-4-2011 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)

1. Where do you pull that random statistic for dinosaur diet? Sources, sir. No unbacked claims.

2. What reason do you have for believing that they would behave in the same manner? They have very few similarities besides being reptiles.

3. Animal behavior is as much learned as it is instinctual.

4. My last comment there was concerning modern civilization's tendency to attack and subjugate the unknown. Hardly conjecture, just look at the world today. We even do it to each other.

5. Show me one of these early descriptions that matches dinosaurs. I would really love to see this one, since nobody knows anything about them beyond skeletal structure.

Originally posted by jstanthrno1

My girlfriend goes to a Christian church and I had her ask about it. The answer she got was dinosauars exisited side by side with man, refered to as dragons and wiped from the planet in the flood. I told her to bring up that fossils date dinos millions of years back and all fossils are found beneath the KT boundary, which is strong evidance for a asteroid be responsible for thier demise. To that she basically got told that theory was Satans work trying to disprove God and the planet was only a few thousand years old.

I find that hard to believe. First, that modern man could coexist with such a dominating species. Also, if dinosauars were here first and God decided to rid the planet of them, shouldnt that important piece of history be brought up in the Bible?? Do any religons acknowledge that this planet was not created for human beings??
.

IMO, the view point represented by your g/f's church is very much a minority one, and completely wrong. Of the world's 1.2 billion (approximate number) Christians, most are quite comfortable and happy with evolution.
Vicky

reply to post by warbird03



#5: the video, the video...