How to send information faster (much faster) than light

I was having a conversation with my dad this weekend, the usual BS, and we always find a way into existential and "out there" topics. During our discussion, we started talking about the speed of light, particle vs waves, and eventually faster than light travel. At this point he told me he was certain that it is possible to send information faster than the speed of light. I told him to prove it, so...

If you had a station set up on or near the surface of the sun (for argument sake, all problems arising from this situation are ignored) it would take a minimum of eight minutes to send any signal. Say you have a rod (carbon fiber or the likes), though, that stretches that entire length. Using the back-and-forth motion of the rod you would be able to send information instantly, hundreds of times faster than the speed of light.

I gave him credit as credit was due. Even though there is no "faster than light movement", the information is still sent much faster than light.

It got me thinking, though, about the universe. Like the possibility of being able to manipulate the fabric of the universe in such a way that it acts like a solid. I know it's a stretch (or a compression ), but that fact that it is possible one way makes me think the information could be applied in a less primitive way. I would not call myself an expert, so questions directed at me may be futile, but hopefully someone more knowledgeable can fill in any gaps that may arise.

There was a scientist who used some type of relays that could move radio waves faster than the speed of light , I saw this article here on ATS a couple of years ago . Maybe the MOD can locate it and put it on this thread.

reply to post by scojak


That wouldn't be the case. It's a thought experiment that has cropped up here once or twice before. I'm sorry, I can't for the life of me remember the proper explanation as to why it is the case, though.

reply to post by scojak

Sounds like a cool Dad there, because mine(Step Father) just loves Bill OReilly! So there is no discussion of the "fantastical."
Did you catch this series on BBC by chance, The Messengers?

It kind of blew my mind and one thing mentioned was that radio signals are considered as "light." They also mention the fabric of space. The show is about how light offers us a view of the cosmos like no other. A truly amazing show!
Now, if we can just temporarily dissolve ourselves and merge into the slipstream of info exchange.
I wonder what kind of speed theoretical transportation the "transporter's" from Star Trek travel at... theoretically?

Peace,
spec

reply to post by scojak


Uh, all forces applied to an object (such as the one you intend to use to move the rod back and forth to send information) are applied to the atoms at the object's interface via electrostatic force. These atoms in turn push or pull their neighboring atoms via the same electrostatic force. This motion proceeds at a rate that is not as fast as the speed of light (it requires particles with mass to be accelerated). Furthermore, no real solid is perfectly rigid - a very long rod of what we see as rigid material would compress and expand so much that the force you attempt to apply would move through the object in a mechanical wave.

No, this mechanism cannot operate faster than the speed of light. Of course, this is readily testable if you had a 1 meter long rigid bar and an adequate mechanism to discern time difference between the arrival of light and the arrival time of a 'signal' sent by pushing or pulling the rod. A facility for measuring time differences to parts of a nanosecond should be more than sufficient and these exist.

Oh, and a 93 million mile long carbon nanotube, carbon fibre or fairydust rod would have one hell of a lot of inertia making the transmission of information (even if it was perfectly rigid) at any decent data rate a bit problematic.

Originally posted by speculativeoptimist
reply to post by scojak

 

It kind of blew my mind and one thing mentioned was that radio signals are considered as "light." They also mention the fabric of space. The show is about how light offers us a view of the cosmos like no other. A truly amazing show!

Really? You didn't know that all electromagnetic energy (visible light, infrared, ultraviolet, x-rays, gamma-rays, radio waves, etc.) are all just varying energy levels (and thus frequencies in their wave nature) of photons??? This should not be news to anyone with a high school education and certainly not to anyone who has any interest in things technical or scientific.

reply to post by scojak


That's actually the case over any length. Given a solid rod just a metre long, moving one end in a specific way to communicate using, say, Morse Code immediately transmits that information to the other end. It certainly is an interesting way to communicate instantaneously over vast distances. I can't think of any reasons why this sort of FTL communication can't be done, or doesn't count, but, then, I've only been thinking about it for about 3 minutes.
I might actually have to think about this for another 3 minutes...

Ironically, I've been outsmarted by JustSomeIdiot. I'd like to justify this by saying, my mind is elsewhere at the moment, but a guy with the STVG field equation in his avatar should really not even need to think about it. Excuse me while I go hide in a corner.

reply to post by JustSomeIdiot

This should not be news to anyone with a high school education and certainly not to anyone who has any interest in things technical or scientific.

Nope, I did not know radio signals were light. Perhaps we should switch user names!
My high school was in a state with the 3rd lowest grades form both teachers and students, many years ago. Plus I was chasing women and good times more than studies back then...my bad. I still have an interest in science though . Can't I have an interest without knowing so much...yet?
But hey, I am here to learn too, it's never too late I hope.

spec

This week on Troll Science, assault an alien faster than the speed of light!



Stay tuned for next week's "Magnet Powered Airplane!"



All thanks to Mr. Coolface

reply to post by speculativeoptimist


Now, this, I think I can handle...if you'll allow me to reclaim my pride a little bit. "Light" includes gamma radiation, X-rays, Ultraviolet, Visible light, Infrared, Microwaves, and Radio waves.
What looks through you to see you've broken a bone: light.
What you use to heat up yesterday's pork chop: light.
What you hear when you jam to the latest tunes: (modulated and converted) light.

Light (electromagnetic radiation, as a whole) is fascinating, and it defines the birth of Quantum Mechanics.

reply to post by CLPrime

"Light" includes gamma radiation, X-rays, Ultraviolet, Visible light, Infrared, Microwaves, and Radio waves.

Thanks man, I knew about all of them except radiation and radio waves. Guess those never clicked with me, but now I know.

Peace,
spec

reply to post by speculativeoptimist


Anytime. I'm still gonna go hide in the corner, though. A Physics/Quantum Mechanics major failing to grasp the concept of the forces involved in moving an object that disallow it to communicate information faster than light... yeah, there's no coming back from that.

However, if you ever want me to repeat the list of EM Spectrum classes, I'd be happy to. That seems to be something I can manage at the moment.

By the way, to scojak: your dad sounds like a great man to talk to. If I weren't sick, tired, and mildly depressed, I'd randomly show up for a visit...but he probably wouldn't approve of my germs.

Originally posted by speculativeoptimist

Nope, I did not know radio signals were light. Perhaps we should switch user names!

My high school was in a state with the 3rd lowest grades form both teachers and students, many years ago. Plus I was chasing women and good times more than studies back then...my bad. I still have an interest in science though

. Can't I have an interest without knowing so much...yet?
But hey, I am here to learn too, it's never too late I hope.

Well, I too went to high school in one of the worst places in the states but I guess I had more curiosity about things like this back then - way back then. We are never too old to learn but might I suggest that you spend a little more time reading less 'out-there' postings that gives a better factual foundation - or at least mix it up a bit. Wikipedia is one pretty decent source for tutorial material on these kinds of things... Just say'n...

Originally posted by bdb818888
There was a scientist who used some type of relays that could move radio waves faster than the speed of light , I saw this article here on ATS a couple of years ago . Maybe the MOD can locate it and put it on this thread.

That would seem to be unlikely as I can't imagine (based on my Electrical Engineering and Physics background) how an electro-mechanical system of any sort could possibly induce radio waves to travel faster than the speed of light in the medium through which they are moving. I doubt he's much of a scientist.

Originally posted by JustSomeIdiot

Originally posted by bdb818888
There was a scientist who used some type of relays that could move radio waves faster than the speed of light , I saw this article here on ATS a couple of years ago . Maybe the MOD can locate it and put it on this thread.

That would seem to be unlikely as I can't imagine (based on my Electrical Engineering and Physics background) how an electro-mechanical system of any sort could possibly induce radio waves to travel faster than the speed of light in the medium through which they are moving. I doubt he's much of a scientist.

I had heard of this too, here's a quick article to get the gist.
www.universetoday.com... -travel-faster-than-light/

Thanks to everyone who posted contributive info, now I have some ammo for next time we have a sit-down.

He is a great dad BTW. Very smart, though I guess not so much in quantum physics. He's one hell of a mechanic though! As of a few years ago he had built the world's fastest Honda and outdid the Honda F1 team. It may still stand, I never heard about them beating him. 265.860mph with a stock S2000 engine!

If you really want to transmit information faster than light speed, you could just tell my sister.

Somehow I suspect space itself is non-uniform (neither convex or concave, but pitted and bumpy with a little of both), and that the speed of light in a vacuum varies in different gravitational fields. The thing is the speed of light observed in a given location remains constant because the rate at which time proceeds is also non-uniform due to gravitational fields. So the speed of light may be more like a coefficient. It's the ratio of two observed values that are tested for.

Under certain conditions, if you could alter a gravitational field you might be able to go faster than the speed of light. However nobody can observe you going faster. Instead what they'd see is that if you were holding a clock, it would slow down. In turn, from your perspective - the time involved in going from A to B is still that you were going faster than light.

Alternately outside of the gravitational field of something like a star-system, planets may appear to be going strangely fast. But if you were to approach that system and fall into orbit around that star, the procession of the planets in orbit would something more perceptibly normal. I think this is something current science may be able to directly observe and perhaps work out.

The idea seems a bit wacky, and I'll admit it too. But keep in mind speed is distance over time. So the speed of light is considered the maximum distance that can be covered over one unit of finite time. (At least it's the case with the fastest particle we can observe, given that you're treating a photon as a particle.) If time is scalable, then keep in mind distance over time... The maximum distance possible would scale with the time, in order for c to remain observed as a constant relative to an observer. It also leads to something goofy that breaks down in such a way that energy/mass = area/time^2. And that's sort of funny because the only other thing that breaks down with time^2 as a part of it is acceleration. Which may lead back to either gravitation or rotation. (This leads to some other ideas that seem laughable like bending light with gyroscopes and stuff like that. And the implications of such experiments if they were to work out. Might also have to try some things with the Casimir effect on the bounds of a rotating mass too.)

I'm not that great at math, or at least patient enough to work it all out. But in some ways I think if Fizeau's theorem was reviewed and applied to the bending of light in gravitational fields instead of materials with refractive properties... There might be something interesting to it. In other words it might show that the speed of light in a vacuum isn't uniform as many people would think it is.

So depending on where you are in space, you may be able to go faster than what the speed of light is elsewhere in space. But because of some limitations with photons and other particles, you can't be observed going faster. My grasp of what I can visualize is sort of hard to explain. Even if it starts out a little half-baked, I still think it might be entertaining to a physicist or mathematician who could get the gist of it and toy with the idea.

Of course you could just toss out these ideas as coming from la-la land. That's alright, not like I'm getting or asking for any money in regards to these crazy ideas.

I'm of the opinion that we will figure out how to use quantum entanglement to transfer information at a rate faster than C. At least this seems to be the most promising to me, if we could only control those pesky spin states

If you built a device that could send and recieve info faster than C, do you think the device would tell you that it is a success the moment it is turned on? Wouldn't the future send a message back to the past through the device to let you know you had it right? Or would the "event horizon" start after confirmation that the device worked.

reply to post by speculativeoptimist

It kind of blew my mind and one thing mentioned was that radio signals are considered as "light."

I consider it a serious failure of public science education that everyone does not know this.

reply to post by Astyanax


Likely due to our culture, education is not like The Field Of Dreams. Just because it is built does not men they will come.