Residents videotaping officers 'worries' HPD's chief

Residents videotaping officers 'worries' HPD's chief

www.chron.com

"Officers are telling me that they're being provoked," the chief said. "Even when they try to write a simple traffic ticket, people are jumping out with cell phone cameras scanning their badge numbers and their nametags. And I've asked them to remain calm and treat people with respect and dignity."

McClelland said he is concerned that an intensifying anti-police sentiment in the community could increase negative interactions between Houston Police Department officers and residents.

"This rhetoric can give someone a free pass to try to assault a police officer or kill a police offi

(visit the link for the full news article)

Sigh....Here we go again.

While I can see what this chief is saying here to an extent, if indeed he is being truthful about folks "jumping out of their vehicle's", it sounds to me like he is REALLY stretching this, to almost try and label this a "conspiracy" and tie in to folks FILMING cops and speaking out against activity they feel is unjust, with folks acting VIOLENTLY against them, which is pure nonsense imho.

I don't disagree with him if indeed folks are jumping out of there cars and going insane that they need to calm down, but to tie that in with "commiting assaults or killing a police officer" is total fear-mongering and paranoia on his end, and sounds like an excuse to keep folks from recording LE actions, which if are on the up and up, should not be ANY problem whatsoever.

www.chron.com
(visit the link for the full news article)

reply to post by DimensionalDetective

Funny how people get when the shoes on the other foot. They live under a different letter of the law than they impose.

This is what the good cheif is not really stating, in part because well it's believed the masses are too dumb to understand certain things and that it's not really a good idea for them to understand certain things.

Police officers are trained to take control of encounters. Every word, every procedure, is carefully crafted to put the officer in control.

One could argue that control is for their safety.

Yet one could also argue that control is also for the sake of effeciency.

Example the average traffic stop is designed to last 13.4 minutes from start to finish in a process where the police officer has complete control and directs the timing of events from start to finish through their own actions.

Enter the motorist who now wants to film the process, and control starts to fly right out the window. Begin a two way round of questions, one being asked by the officer for his record, and the other being asked by the citizen for theirs and you get to the next part of control.

Questions are a control element and one of the reasons police officers hate being questioned.

The person asking the questions has control.

The whole system of code violations is based on control and efficiency.

One of the funniest things I ever saw in my life was an old black and white film in the Wolfsonian Museum here in Miami of when the first Electronic Pedestrian Cross Walk Sign was erected in Miami Beach and the Miami Beach Police were attempting to hand out J-Walking tickets.

I say attempting to, because they could not establish control with the little old retirees many of whom were Jewish that they were trying to write J-Walking tickets too.

"What this is Nazi Germany now, you telling us how to cross the street? No I won't sign that or give you my name, shoot me in the back, I am leaving" was what one little old lady after one little old man after another said to the officers, who frankly didn't have a clue what to do then.

The whole process is dependent upon the Officer being in control, establishing an oral contract where you admit their authority and that you believe they have a right to ticket you through that.

So people filming and asking questions throws a whole monkey wrench not just in the control, but slows it all down, and depending on the questions they ask and then record, might even contractually invalidate the whole process where the officer is made out to be what they are.

An armed henchmen of the state using duress and force to defraud motorists of money in their constitutional freedom to travel between point A and B.

They can't speak to the real truth as to why they don't want these things filmed, but hey the rest of us can.

It's all about control, extorting money, doing it quickly so they can get on to the next sucker, oops I mean law breaker!

Yeah well they can drag you out of the field of view of the dash cam, and or hold you on suicide watch or keep you otherwise incommunicado long enough to prevent you from interfacing with counsel long enough to "lose" or "accidentally erase" any footage that is damning to them from dash cams before a subpeona for the footage can make it through court.

Isn't it funny how whenever THEY want to add new hoops to jump through or more invasive methods of breaching your privacy THEY spout the rationalization "If you haven't done anything wrong you have nothing to worry about!"

Well if they haven't done anything wrong what do they have to hide?

so what, use the excuse they use to defend everything from being groped and x-rayed to having your car illegally searched: if you have nothing to hide then you don't have anything to worry about.

the cops should just write the ticket and go on with his day.

but video cameras are a real threat. because they don't lie. the cops are so used to bullying and abusing their power that they feel self concious that they might be exposed.

Never, ever, be blatant in your face videographers with LEOs. Be discrete, be secretive and email your video to yourself as soon as possible if using your iphone. Phones have a strange way of getting destroyed in confrontations.

But always film heroism by LEOs just like you would film brutality or corruption....discretely.

doesn't Houston write like 150,000 dollars worth of tickets a day or some ungodly amount?
i think its high time they put those dicks on notice and stop the pigs from public predating and rapeage....don't you?

we should all dish out some of our own justice and even the playing field

reply to post by DimensionalDetective


Yes, I would be worried too, if I was used to being held to a different standard of behavior for many decades, then suddenly must be held accountable because of some lousy video evidence.

If you've ever known any/some cops well, you know the attitude. Not all mind you!

But the power behind that badge is intoxicating, and some cops are addicted to it.

Regarding videotaping and the OP, we as citizens have been conditioned to believe that we can be subject to video surveillance on every street corner, store, anywhere! Because we have no Expectation of Privacy in public places:

Examples of places where a person has a reasonable expectation of privacy are person's residence or hotel room[1] and public places which have been specifically provided by businesses or the public sector to ensure privacy, such as public restrooms, private portions of jailhouses,[2] or a phone booth.[3][4]

In general, one cannot have an expectation of privacy in public places, with the exceptions mentioned above. A well-known example is denial of privacy for garbage left for collection in a public place.[2]

While a person may have a subjective expectation of privacy in his/her car, it is not always an objective one, unlike a person's home.[5]

Why is it any different for LEOs??? If they are kicking the cr@p out of us in our own homes, do they expect privacy? Or on a street corner? Or in a private business?

I was arrested once (misdemeanor) many years ago. I knew from being around LEOs while growing up to keep my mouth zipped no matter what. Even when they threatened my little dachshund who was riding in the car. Regardless of how polite and apologetic/submissive I was (I was going to let the lawyers handle it), the deputy put the cuffs on so tight that my hands were solid purple by the time the cuffs were removed. The nerves in my wrists were damaged and the pain only went away after 9 months.

Yes, they should be worried about citizens collecting evidence of abuse, and about the internet propagating stories of the abuse. Maybe once enough of these "well if you weren't doing anything wrong...." pansies get mistreated (or one of their loved ones/friends), the officially sanctioned sadism will stop.

For the life of me I don't get the connection between video recording and a free ticket to assault or kill. What does he mean by that. If this is the case however then the police better remove all of their dash cams, jail cameras, and street cameras etc. because they sound like a very dangerous risk.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


Well said Proto! Slowing the process down means less money extorted out of the people into the city coffers. Also the more cops filmed abusing the people the harder it is to keep up the illusions that police protect the people. Money & control, money & control mone...

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


I've done alot of ride alongs withe the city and county cops where i live well b/c i went to school with 80% of them. Now some are a little on the controle freak side but i understand b/c we had cops get beat,stabed, and shot at..nobody can arguee with what i've sen b/c they wasnt there. So imo people need to treat cops with a little respect b/c how would you like knowing everytime you went to work you could be beat down,shot, and stabed. It's funny to me that our LEO's are turned into the bad guy until they are needed and then they are everybodies best friend.

Originally posted by Alucard666
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

 

I've done alot of ride alongs withe the city and county cops where i live well b/c i went to school with 80% of them. Now some are a little on the controle freak side but i understand b/c we had cops get beat,stabed, and shot at..nobody can arguee with what i've sen b/c they wasnt there. So imo people need to treat cops with a little respect b/c how would you like knowing everytime you went to work you could be beat down,shot, and stabed. It's funny to me that our LEO's are turned into the bad guy until they are needed and then they are everybodies best friend.

Ahh the dangerous job myth.... Well it just so happens it is more dangerous to drive in a public highway then it is to be a cop, and there are many jobs that have a much higher rate of injury and death then being a police officer. Such as roofer or even farm workers have more injuries and fatalities then police. In fact police work is not even in the top ten of most dangerous jobs. If cops want respect they have to earn it by acting like peace officers instead of thugs and quit trying to pimp the dangerous job myth for false respect.

Originally posted by Alucard666
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

 

I've done alot of ride alongs withe the city and county cops where i live well b/c i went to school with 80% of them. Now some are a little on the controle freak side but i understand b/c we had cops get beat,stabed, and shot at..nobody can arguee with what i've sen b/c they wasnt there. So imo people need to treat cops with a little respect b/c how would you like knowing everytime you went to work you could be beat down,shot, and stabed. It's funny to me that our LEO's are turned into the bad guy until they are needed and then they are everybodies best friend.

What does this at all have to do with the OP? Are you saying that filming the police is unacceptably disrespectful? Isn't the police filming the people unacceptably disrespectful then?

Edit to add:
And for the record the police are never my best friend. In fact it would seem that they are becoming more and more this country's enemy. I NEVER call the police. I call my real friends.

I have said before and I will say again: Our right to our perspective (and the recording of it) is unalienable.

And, yes, this guy clearly was making mountains out of molehills. A bit of indiscreet filming does NOT add up to the issues he cites.

so what .. the police are always video taping people regardless .. even with traffic light cameras and such ... so why can't people do the same ..?

reply to post by DimensionalDetective


These people better be careful or they are going to be shot and killed. Contrarty to what people think, if you are pulled over by the Police, you DO NOT have freedom of movement. Getting out of your car on a traffic stop can be taken as a threat to the officer(s) present. It is also a threat to the person we stopped.

Your ability to record when YOU are the target of the traffic stop / police contact is not absolute. You are seized temporarily under the 4th amendment. If the officer is trying to deal with you (asking questions, requesting insurance, license etc) and you are ignoring what they are saying because you want to record is going to get you in more trouble.

Regardless of stuation (traffic stop, domestic, etc) we are responsible for you. The moment your freedom of movement is temporarily curtailed, all liability for your safety is on the Officer. If you get out of your car and record the officer, and we dont do anything to stop that and you get hit by a car and killed, we are liable for that.

I would strongly urge people NOT to get out of your vehicle on a traffic stop to record whats going on. Its even more dangerous with a cell phone being pointed towards the officers:



As far as some of the comments I am seeing in this thread all I can say is people have absolutely no idea what their rights are. The suggestions / analysis / comments are so far off base from what Law Enforcement is and does its not even funny.

Some free advice.. Quit sterotyping, fearmongering and spinning baseless conspiracy theories about Law Enforcement. To critisize how officers do their jobs (which is based on ignorance from the looks of some of the comments above), while being completely ignorant about your own rights and the impact on those rights during police contact work, reinforces the idea that our school system has failed.

Try to see it from our point of view. As a civilian, when you are being pulled over, the initial inclination is a Police Officer stopped me. The chances that the person stopping you is not a cop is slight, but it has happened. You become nervous because of the encounter, and this is expected. Your mindset it stuck on the citation, arrest or whatever.

When we do a traffic stop, we have absolutely no idea who is behind the wheel. Is that person normal and just made a mistake, are they armed, are they an escaped felon, drug mule, murder suspect from another state, is the car stolen (contrary to popular beleif people will steal license plates from one type of car, and actually steal a different vehicle and put the plates on that vehicle, so if LEO does run the plate, it comes back to the car (color year make model etc), is the driver the person in the Officer Safety Bulletin that went out prior to shift starting. Is the person medically unstable? Is the person mentally unstable, is the person drunk, on drugs etc etc etc etc.

The goal of law enforcement is to not have contact with citizens. When we do though, we place our lives in danger every single time, whether people agree with that or not (If I pull you over for speeding, there is always the chance I can be struck and killed by a passing vehicle).

Are there power hungry cops.. Sure but not all of us are. The reason for our "control" during these contacts is to safeguard everyone present, from the person we stopped, to passerbys, to the officer. While I can see how people can make some of the comments they have about Police manners, at the very least try to see it from our side.

Notice in the article the Chief said he is nervoud about it, not trying to prohibit it. With the advances in technology, even unnaproved technology (home made guns, bombs etc) safety is paramount. A person may be stopped by the Police only a couple times in their entire life, while the profession we chose places us into contact with the citizens on an hourly basis.

I am not excusing the actions of some Police who do go overboard, but at the same time I dont think people should be placing us all into the same category.

reply to post by Xcathdra

These people better be careful or they are going to be shot and killed.

Who are "These people", those who dare to video themselves or some stranger (78 year old grandma for instance) getting manhandled, stomped, tasered, or shot and killed? Why the threatening language here?

Getting out of your car on a traffic stop can be taken as a threat to the officer(s) present.

30+ years ago, getting out was seen as the right and courteous thing to do. Officer can see you, and that you're not armed and not hiding anything. Nowadays you guys are so wound up, you don't know what you want. Officers always ask for citizens to get out anyway, so where does the threat issue apply here?

I am not excusing the actions of some Police who do go overboard, but at the same time I dont think people should be placing us all into the same category.

Officers being videotaped should not cause any concern for you. Citizens expect to be videotaped on every stop/detainment, by dashcams and on-person cameras, and at every store, stop light and more. What's the difference here? Safety?

What about all the innocent citizens shot while reaching for the seatbelt once some steroid enhanced PTSD adrenalized storm trooper orders them out of the vehicle. Don't agree? google it.

The HPD chief is using the slippery slope fallacy. He's attempting to associate the perfectly legal act of a third party video taping a police stop from a safe and legal position to the people being pulled over illegally getting out of their cars and disrupting the citation procedure.

He then goes on to state that that could eventually transition into people getting aggressive with police officers and eventually outright assault on police officers.

Slippery Slope:

Legal & Safe video taping by third party --> involved party disrupting citation --> citizens getting aggressive with Police ---> citizens assaulting & killing Police officers.

So the HPD chief's solution to this is to stop all video taping of Police officers even if it is legal & safe.

The HPD chief's logic is false - but he needs it to justify his agenda: Lessen the chances of successful lawsuits against his department by preventing the public from video taping all interactions between his officers and the public.

reply to post by Xcathdra



Honestly, I think you are likely a good person. I see the way you interact with people here, and note your intellectualism as a positive trait. Would that other cops were like that.

problem is, how many "laws" do you enforce that have no victim? That are a waste of your time? And, though that enforcement, creates a greater danger for yourself?

You have to understand that, as a person whose job it is to limit the freedom of a citizen, people are not going to like you. Just about every person has a horror story about a cop. And you are not like the folks at McDonalds. When that horror story includes a cop, the citizens rights, reputation, and freedom is put in danger (not to mention life). it is a humiliating event that creates actual trauma. I had an incident go bad enough that i would have a panic attack every time i drove past an officer. sometimes i would have to pull over and pull myself together. After a couple of years i got better. That officer was demoted over it, and eventually fired. If i ever see him again, i will not allow him to walk away. It is best that he no longer lives around here.

you are a good man. you should find another profession. because of my own experiences, it is impossible for me to have a positive opinion on LEO's. The position corrupts the evil hearts of men far too easily.