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Originally posted by eight bits
At the very least, I would have hoped you could straighten that one out. If a hypothesis is, in fact, unfalsifiable, then there is no possibility whatsoever of its being proved wrong.
BTW, unfalsfiability is not a defect.
Tautologies are examples of unfalsifiable propositions that are both true and known to be true.
Unfalsfiability simply means that if Karl Popper were still alive, that he would say that the matter was outside the scope of scientific inquiry.
That is, the question has something in common with mathematics, logic, and Karl's own profession, philosophy, in his opinion.
Faith is exactly that, an assumption of truth.
All discursive reasoning, whether syntactic, formal, ... begins with assumptions. If the reasoning draws as its conclusions truth claims, then some of those assumptions must be "of truth."
This is all very elementary.
It's also not so clear that Faith in all Christian conceptions is the adoption of truth assumptions.
It may have been for some individuals (Thomas Aquinas would be a prime suspect), but not necessarily for others (Saint Paul, I think, although based on a slender record).
Of course, you're entitled to your belief about that, but you produce no evidence and the proposition is far from obvious.
I guess I'll just mark it down as yet another unsupported belief typical of atheist religious orthodoxy.
Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
reply to post by NOTurTypical
Belief in scientific principles rests on evidence, not faith.. I believe that abiogenesis might have happened, but that's only because there is evidence to show that it is possible. While this evidence isn't definitive, it's enough to say that it's more than possible.
The Big Bang? Well, the universe is expanding.
There's quite a lot of evidence in support of it. I'd say the general premise of a universe which emerged from a single expansion event of previously extant matter/energy makes more than a bit of sense with regards to the present evidence.
"The Big Bang represents the instantaneous suspension of physical laws, the sudden abrupt flash of lawlessness that allowed something to come out of nothing... it represents a true miracle." ~ Dr. Paul Davies, Physicist and Evolutionist, "The Edge of Infinity", 1995
"Astronomers have not the slightest evidence for the supposed quantum production of the universe out of a primordial nothingness." ~ Sten Odenwald, (PhD Astrophysics and Chief Scientist with Raytheon STX Corp at the NASA Goddard Space Flight Center), "The Astronomy Cafe'", 1998, p. 120
Now, religious 'belief' and scientific 'belief' are two separate terms. Religious beliefs are not based in the same evidence and experimentation and rely on trust in the belief itself rather than in the evidence surrounding it. It is, in fact, considered the highest principle in religious traditions, particularly in yours, to be able to believe not only that which has no evidence to support it, but to believe in that which is in opposition to the evidence (like a global flood as explained in the story of Noah, a 6 day creation in which plants precede the sun, the sun 'standing still in the sky' even though the Earth's rotation is what causes the appearance of the movement of the sun, people coming out of there graves and walking about without a single documentation of it in contemporary history, etc).
Scientific 'belief' rests on the idea that you can trust the evidence as it has been presented.
I don't have 'faith' in my computer. I trust it. Why? Well, it consistently works. It gives out the appropriate outputs based upon inputs. If I use the calculator and ask for the answer to 10! I get 3628800 every time. It's trust in results, not trust in a belief.
And thus its truth value must be determined by positive evidence, the absence of which would prevent its honest consideration as truth.
Really? Where does Popper say this?
Where does he say that claims about the material world which are unfalsifiable are in the realm of mathematics (in which everything is falsifiable), logic (in which everything is falsifiable), or philosophy (in which no claims about the material world's mechanics are made)?
An unfalsifiable claim about the physical, material world is not a proper claim about it.
Faith is the antithesis of reasoning. It is "Bible says it, I believe it". This is pure assumption of truth, there's no hedging or changing of mind.
Alright, demonstrate a dogmatic or doctrinal Christian concept that is not the adoption of truth assumptions.
Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Madness, you know I respect your thoughts, but isn't "believe/belief" a statement of faith?
With that said, I can't place personal faith in Abiogenesis because it has never been observed or repeated by experimentation.
Don't bring up Miller-Urey, it has been shown to be a false test for some 30 years now.
Not only that, based on the various probability models
it takes between 10^136 to 10^191 for even a single protein to assemble itself from molecules via random chances.
The probability for a molecule to a living cell would be 10^40,000.
All these statistics are outside the limit that has been observed by science (10^50), which in turn makes their ability to be true based upon faith, definitely not observed by any scientific methodology.
It's my belief that Abiogenesis cannot account for the origin of life because it cannot account for the origin of information.
You cannot have a protein without DNA and you cannot get to a viable living cell without proteins.
Modern 21st century Microbiology has shown that a simple cell is anything but simple, it's more complex than an average city in the world.
Methinks if Darwin had any clue to the absurd complexity of a single cell he never would have proposed his theory.
The Big Bang? Well, the universe is expanding.
That's not an argument, the Bible also declares that the universe is expanding, that God "stretches out the heavens".
[It is] he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof [are] as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:
It says this no less than 20 times in the 66 books.
An expanding universe would also be expected in the Biblical model.
What evidence?
The idea the universe created itself from nothing is a violation of Physics.
Something cannot come about from nothing.
The Big Bang requires a miracle.
And you assume a miracle happened at the point of the Big Bang but your worldview makes no concession for a miracle maker. My worldview does, God. If you believe a miracle happened (Big Bang), and do not have a miracle maker your assumption is not only faith, but a blind faith.
"The Big Bang represents the instantaneous suspension of physical laws, the sudden abrupt flash of lawlessness that allowed something to come out of nothing... it represents a true miracle." ~ Dr. Paul Davies, Physicist and Evolutionist, "The Edge of Infinity", 1995
"Astronomers have not the slightest evidence for the supposed quantum production of the universe out of a primordial nothingness." ~ Sten Odenwald, (PhD Astrophysics and Chief Scientist with Raytheon STX Corp at the NASA Goddard Space Flight Center), "The Astronomy Cafe'", 1998, p. 120
Madness, what would you expect to find if the Noah flood were a true account?
Myself, I'd expect to find millions of dead fossils in the ground all over the globe.
I'd expect to find marine life fossilized close to land animals.
I'd fully expect a global flood to deposit millions of dead things, and so rapidly that they would not have time to decompose on the surface of the Earth and would meet the preconditions for a fossil to develop.
And why is there a problem with plans preceding the Sun?
Even if God were not light itself for that day, I have taken plants indoors at the advent of yearly winters and they have lived for over two weeks without perishing.
Plants can live for several days without sunlight. How is that a problem?
Scientific 'belief' rests on the idea that you can trust the evidence as it has been presented.
How can you be anything but skeptical of any theory in science?
Science has a history of being completely wrong on more theories than anyone here can number.
And especially scientific theories which are neither observable nor repeatable by the scientific method such as Abiogensis and the Big Bang?
Your computer is observable as is your calculator, I have trust in those as well.
I'm trying to show you my stance that you cannot trust models that are neither observable or repeatable.
Those theories take faith to ascribe to, and furthermore, with the probabilities involved and lack of miracle maker in your worldview, they rely upon a blind faith where biblical models do not. We account for a miracle maker.
At the very least, I would have hoped you could straighten that one out. If a hypothesis is, in fact, unfalsifiable, then there is no possibility whatsoever of its being proved wrong.
Originally posted by eight bits
Madness
My first objection was to awake_and_aware's claim that a contingent unfalsifiable hypothesis might be proven wrong. I expect that you and I are in agreement that it cannot be.
And thus its truth value must be determined by positive evidence, the absence of which would prevent its honest consideration as truth.
No, its truth value is determined by whether or not it's true.
Really? Where does Popper say this?
In chapter 1, section 4 of The Logic of Scientific Discovery, Popper defines what he means by demarcation, and in section 6 he proposes falsifiability as his criterion for demarcation.
Where does he say that claims about the material world which are unfalsifiable are in the realm of mathematics (in which everything is falsifiable), logic (in which everything is falsifiable), or philosophy (in which no claims about the material world's mechanics are made)?
You may wish to refresh your recollection of what Popper meant by falsifiability. Probably the whole first chapter of '___' would be worthwhile.
An unfalsifiable claim about the physical, material world is not a proper claim about it.
I doubt that that really is your view, and it surely isn't mine.
The material world exists apart from our perception of it is an unfalsifiable claim (in every sense, including Popper's), outside the subject matter of empirical science (in just about every conception, including Popper's), but is, to my satisfaction, an entirely "proper" view to entertain.
Faith is the antithesis of reasoning. It is "Bible says it, I believe it". This is pure assumption of truth, there's no hedging or changing of mind.
That's your view of faith. Other people have other views of it, including many Christians.
Alright, demonstrate a dogmatic or doctrinal Christian concept that is not the adoption of truth assumptions.
Neither a&a nor I discussed doctrines or dogma, Christian or otherwise. He proposed that faith was exactly an assumption of truth. I stated that I disagreed.
As to the historicity of Jesus, belief in that might depend on a number of things, with considerable interpersonal variation among those who believe. I suppose it could be an assumption for some people, but isn't for others. I believe Jesus probably lived, but I don't assume that, nor is it any way the product of faith, either.
I have repeatedly posted that in my view, atheism, agnosticism and theism are equally admirable opinions for someone to hold, by every impersonally valid criterion I can think of. I don't think agnosticism is "superior" to atheism.
You and I have recently discussed the applicabilility of religion to atheism in the English-speaking world.
Please refer to my posts if you have any remaining questions about my view about that, or the bases for it.
My understanding is that you and I disagree about some cases, and agree about others. Fortunately, it is a matter of personal opinion.
..and whether or not its true can only be determined by the presence or absence of evidence in favor of it being true.
That was one of the ones I had to check out from the library, care to give us a quote and defense?
Then they'll have to justify their view of faith. Honestly, the most different Christian perspective I've found is in "Fear and Trembling", and Kierkegaard still relies on a leap to/of faith. At one point the doubt gives way to certainty, even though the elements themselves haven't changed.
You must be assuming it, as there isn't physical evidence for it and the first accounts of his life were from a guy named Paul in a land quite a distance away writing a few decades after his death.
...except that it is a dogmatic religion. And it isn't.
Incorrect, i could postulate that theres a teapot on the moon before the invention of telescopes. It's only unfalsifiable until we have the means to falsify it.
So far, i don't think there's any reason to ASSUME a creator. Faith is exactly that, an assumption of truth. Again, you must consider you run the risk of being proved wrong. That is my point, i suspend judgement or belief, i certainly don't accept unfalsifiable hypothesis or have any particular faith in them.
Originally posted by eight bits
madness
..and whether or not its true can only be determined by the presence or absence of evidence in favor of it being true.
No, I noticed you argued that way about Newton in another thread. Evidence is about belief formation, tenure and change. Whether or not a proposition is true is a distinct issue from anybody's opinion about its truth, from what they accept as evidence on the question, or from whether there even is any evidence, according to any large number of people.
That was one of the ones I had to check out from the library, care to give us a quote and defense?
No.
You have falsely accused me of misrepresenting your writing by omitting some of your words when quoting you.
Originally posted by eight bits
No. You have falsely ...quoting ...me...
You forfeit the courtesy of a partial quote of what I have cited.
Also, I am not an advocate of Popper's views, so a defense from me would be inappropriate.
Speaking of philosophical matters, you and I seem to be in agreement that The material world exists apart from our perception of it is a metaphysical proposition, and is not amenable to empirical investigation. If it happens not to state your view, then so be it.
There seems to be a variety of ideas about the nature of faith among Christians. Kierkegaard down, a billion-and-change Christians left to canvass.
You must be assuming it, as there isn't physical evidence for it and the first accounts of his life were from a guy named Paul in a land quite a distance away writing a few decades after his death.
Mmm, no. Paul didn't write accounts of Jesus' life, at least none that are available to us.
In a thread where it's on-topic, maybe I'll discuss the basis of my thinking sometime.
...except that it is a dogmatic religion. And it isn't.
Neither theism, nor atheism, nor agnosticism is inherently dogmatic. Any specific version of any of them could be dogmatic.
And yes, we are in agreement that theism comprises several specific theistic religions. There are several atheisms, too, along with quite a few agnosticisms.
But then "Christianity" comes in several forms as well. Nevertheless, on some occasions it is useful to describe Christianity as "a religion," and other occasions, that would be less useful.
There is no point being dogmatic about what any word "means" at large in the linguistic community where it is current. Usage is all there is.
Originally posted by eight bits
Therefore, contrary to your assertion, adjensen need have no concern whatsoever about being proven wrong, ever.
Originally posted by awake_and_aware
I want a smug bumber sticker too.
Oh wait; no i don't.
Originally posted by scojak
God I hate religion...People are always trying to prove their religion, or enforce it, or condemn others...but why? Unless you have unequivocal evidence of your religion being the right one, people won't care...And even if you did have evidence, there would still be a lot of people who still wouldn't care. So why argue? Why even discuss it? It's a complete waste of time, and the conversation never goes anywhere. And the funny is, most religions are based on the same principles. Religion is like a bunch of maps, all with different directions to the same location. You can take any route you want, it's the matter of getting there that's most important. Can I copyright that? So religion, in fact, doesn't matter, it's what you learn from it that does. Anyway, I'm not going to tell you not to argue about it, I'm just saying it's a complete waste of time.