Modern Golden Dawn Orders... Anyone have experience with them.. few questions...

Whats up yall!

Anyone here have any experience with any of the current golden dawn orders? I've been looking to join one of them, but I can't figure out which one would be the most "legitimate". I've been studying the golden dawn and ceremonial magick and occultism in general for quite a few years now and have recently been looking to join one of the current g.d orders but I can't decide which one I should go for. There seems about 5 or so different ones and some of them looking at their websites come off as kind of corny with "astral initiation" and self initiation and all that, which is something that I really don't dig. I want to find one that actually has real temples and does real initiations as I want the whole experience, not some astral initiation over the phone or something, lol. I live in the bay area, california and the only one so far I've found that has a temple in the area is the "open source order of the golden dawn" over in richmond which is very close to where I live, but they seem to have added a lot of their own "flavor" to the original golden dawn teaching such as mixing thelema in... etc (and I have no problem with thelema btw, but I want as close the original golden dawn as possible. Am I basically stuck with having to go with one of the orders that do "astral initiations" if I don't go for the open sournce gd?

So anyone have any info about any of these orders, know of any temples in the bay area, ca... etc. I'm just looking for peoples opionons of the different current g.d orders basically.

Also this is kind of unrelated but how are the courses that the Builders of adytum offer? I just earlier today signed up with them, its only 15 a month and the lessons or whatever they sent out seem pretty damn interesting. Anyone have any experience with them? From what I read on their site it seems pretty solid and I have a few books by paul foster case which I quite like. Is the lessons they send good stuff or ultra "new agey" type stuff? Am I wasting my money?

Anyways any responses from people with info on all this will be greatly appreciated.

Peace out and have a great day!

Also to the mods - If this isnt exactly the type of thing I'm supposed to be posting in this forum, since its not exactly conspiracy related, feel free to delete or move to bts or something....

reply to post by jeasahtheseer


Sorry I cant help im not a member of any kind of brotherhoods but I wanted to ask why you dislike self initition so much? Wouldnt communicating with your higher self for knowledge be more benifititial then bending to the will of a group whom might not have the same desires as you?

Originally posted by jeasahtheseer
Am I wasting my money?

Anyways any responses from people with info on all this will be greatly appreciated.

Pick up a copy of Franz Bardon's, Initiation into Hermetics. You won't be disappointed. Good luck on finding an Order... I'm not one for regalia myself.

Sri Oracle

Have you looked into AMORC? It's not the Golden Dawn, but from what I have seen so far, it's kind of along the same lines. I don't have time right now to get into it, but I think I might a bit later when I have finished with the chairs. If you find a chapter that is what you are looking for, let us know what you can about it. I like learning new things.

BTW, I did a thread a while back asking some questions about the Prince Hall differences. I am not sure if you know this, but in my area, I have no idea about them other than they have separate lodges. But my question is, do they have separate Shrine, and Scottish Rite bodies as well? I have not been to the shrine yet, but in the Scottish Rite, it's a very pale crowd. I was just curious.

reply to post by Sri Oracle


I actually own a copy of that book, been on my bookshelf for awhile but have yet to read it. I'll check it out tonight.

Thanks for the reply

Peace

reply to post by network dude


Well I believe prince hall has the The Ancient Egyptian Arabic Order Nobles Mystic Shrine www.aeaonms.org... and to be completely honest I know absolutely nothing how how the scottish rites works with ph. I was only a member of my lodge for a year and some months and never looked into or asked about scottish rite or the shrine.

But I am no longer a prince hall mason and have left my lodge and want nothing to do with them (and this is nothing against all prince hall lodges, or prince hall in general). I will not explain my reasons here. I do still have a lot of respect for prince hall freemasonry but I am currently looking into joining one of the many regular lodges in the bay area.



Thanks for your help though network dude I will definitely look into amorc...

Peace out

reply to post by crystalbeing


Me being a freemason (a ph mason but i have left my lodge and trying to join a regular lodge) I have been through degrees in a lodge enviroment and it is a beautiful and powerful experience. I cant imagine having that same experience doing it all alone in my home or whatever. Has nothing to do with bending to the will of others. From what I have read about about the gd degrees and ritual work are another powerful and beautiful experience that I would like to experience in a lodge/temple enviroment, not all alone at home or whatever. Just can't imagine it being the same experience doing a "self initiation".

Thanks for the reply though

You may find the following threads to be helpful:


ATS Threads:

Society of Inner Light

"Be Freemason Without Being Initiated"


Gnostic-Community:

Gnostic Hermetic Teachings

Golden Dawn, Secret Societies, and the Path

Samael Aun Weor & "Crowley's" Thelema

It is not recommended to associate with the AMORC (see the above linked Golden Dawn thread), Aleister Crowley's teachings, or Franz Bardon's teachings though:

A Practice Condoned in Franz Bardon's "Initiation Into Hermetics" is Condemned in the Pistis Sophia

Salaam

reply to post by jeasahtheseer



I know the EOGD has the Sanctuary of Ma'at in San Francisco. This is an actual temple and is not "astral initiation based." I agree that physical initiations are much better and have more impact on the initiate than self-initiation. However, not everyone lives close to a temple or pronaos so I guess those people have to make the best of what they have. There are many online groups for those students who are forced or choose to do self-initiation.

For some reason, I keep thinking there is another group who is also in the Bay Area (besides AMORC), but for the life of me I can't remember who it is. I will make a few inquiries and let you know....

Peace,

G.

ETA - I almost forgot....the EOGD is currently under going some big executive changes as a result of some major strife within their group at the upper level. This seems to be a frequent curse of many GD groups. However, if you can be patient and have some faith, I'm sure you can rest assured that you will get the instruction that you are looking for. Try to remember that all groups - GD, Masons, Rosicrucians, etc... - are all human and therefore fallible. While I do not have an affiliations with this particular GD group, I know many people who do and they are very very happy with the instruction and fraternity.

Originally posted by CIAGypsy
reply to post by jeasahtheseer

 

I know the EOGD has the Sanctuary of Ma'at in San Francisco. This is an actual temple and is not "astral initiation based." I agree that physical initiations are much better and have more impact on the initiate than self-initiation. However, not everyone lives close to a temple or pronaos so I guess those people have to make the best of what they have. There are many online groups for those students who are forced or choose to do self-initiation.

For some reason, I keep thinking there is another group who is also in the Bay Area (besides AMORC), but for the life of me I can't remember who it is. I will make a few inquiries and let you know....

Peace,

G.

Thanks for the post . I have not come across the sanctuary of maat in my google searches, but san fran is incredibly convenient for me as I live in oakland, san fran is just a a bridge away (Edithhh duh the esoteric order of gd, I was checking their site earlier today didnt even notice they had a local temple). Awesome I'm gonna go check out their website and email them some questions. Thanks again!

Oh and I agree with you about self initiation and the astral initiations, I wasnt putting them down in my original although it may have come across that way. Its just that me living in the bay area I just kinda assumed that there would be lotsa orders/temples around because we have a huge occult community out here. Especially thelema and oto theres a pretty big community of thelemites out here.

And regarding the other group here, you may be thinking about order templi orientis, I believe theres a few oto lodges out here. But me personally although I quite like crowley in a lot of ways, hell my wife is a thelemite, the oto is definitely not for me.

Thanks again for the post

Peace out

reply to post by Tamahu


Thank you for the post, Tamahu . Checking out these links right now, will edit any thoughts I have on them into this post after I read em.

I don't quite follow what you are saying about manly p. hall,,, I'm assuming it has something to do with something in the threads your linked (I havent completely checked out your links yet, but im the process).. But me personally I freaking love manly p hall he is one that got me into looking deeper into spirituality... occultism.. philosophy.. the myseries, or whatever you want to call it. I remember getting secret teachings when I was 16 years old and I literally read the entire book in one sitting. hehe, no joke either, sat up an entire night and part of a day reading it and taking notes and rereading the parts of it that made me think/blew my mind. Dude was amazing. I've read lots of his random essays too and few other books from him like the lost keys. I just bought lectures on ancient philosophy this last weekend actually and been reading through that. Manly P. Hall, that cat blew my mind

Edit - Ok I understand what you where talking about now when you brought up manly p hall.

Peace out.

reply to post by jeasahtheseer


Hi. You can't go wrong with the B.O.T.A.. You are fortunate that you live so close to L.A. (or not). You will be able to visit them if you get in to this deeply enough. In my time I have observed plenty of cross pollination going on between the B.O.T.A. and O.T.O. so you are in good company.
Having my correspondence courses with the B.O.T.A. in my early twenties was to my great benefit.

reply to post by Frater210


Awesome man. I've been searching around on the internet on other boards for info about the b.o.t.a and pretty much from everything I've read everyone says its pretty great. the lessons they send where written by paul foster case for the most part right? I have his books "The true and invisible rosicrucian order" and Tarot key to wisdom of the ages and esoteric secrets of meditation. I've read the true and invisible and the tarot one and thought they were great and ive had the esoteric secrets meditation for for a while but havent read that one yet. So from what I've read from him and from what members of bota say on message boards on the net, I think I made the right decision signing up. I'm pretty damn excited to get my first lessons in the mail!

Anyways thanks for the post man

P.S - whos that in your avatar? Jack Parsons? I just recently read a book about him called sex and rockets which I found pretty interesting.

Peace out!

Did a little digging.... It appears that the upper crust of the EOGD is in a huge firestorm (like I mentioned previously). The reason I bring it up again is that it may impact your ability to reach the true core of the group. Below is an excerpt from internal memos:

Let it be understood that due to his surreptitious actions, the websites of our Order under the names of www.golden-dawn.org and www.esotericgoldendawn.com are under his personal control. All moneys, inquiries and applications sent via these websites currently go to him personally and do not go to our Order. Any personal information provided to his sites will ultimately be used by him as part of his marketing database to promote his personal products. No Temple of our Order supports him nor will perform initiations on behalf of those from whom he accepts money and applications. As such, any promise of initiation, astral or otherwise, that he makes will be a deception.

For the time being the official websites representing the Esoteric Order of the Golden Dawn as a whole will be those of our two Grand Temples: info.eogdisis.com and www.templeptah.org.

Sincerely and in LVX,
The Chiefs and Adepti of the Esoteric Order of the Golden Dawn

If you are truly interested in this study, I would contact the EOGD through www.templeptah.org. They have a phone number listed so you can even call them and ask to be put in touch with the local group in San Fran.

Unfortunately, since the times of Mathers and Crowley, this sort of thing has been common. For a group that is supposed to be spirituality based, you'd think they'd get their act together and remember to balance their egos. However.... c'est la vie!

reply to post by CIAGypsy


Yeah I spent quite a few hours last night researching the esoteric golden dawn and I was starting to think they where exactly what I was looking for. then I checked out some of the pages of their other temples and came across what you posted above and I immediatly started to get a really sketchy vibe about the whole thing!

I think I'm going to try to contact the sanctuary of ma'at in san fran directly and try to talk to them and see if they can help with me al this.

Thanks for your help and advice in this thread cia, it is greatly appreciated .

Oh and also do you know anything about this group? www.golden-dawn.com... ? All these freaking different groups are confusing the hell outta me!

Thanks again

Peace out and have a great day!

reply to post by jeasahtheseer


Manly P. Hall is definitely near the top of my list of favorite authors on Occultism, along with Samael Aun Weor, H.P. Blavatsky, M:., Rudolf Steiner, Dion Fortune, etc. Of course the said authors are of my favorite modern authors on Occultism, related to a list of writers which by no means excludes other authors on esoteric topics such as Vajrayana, Hindu Tantra and Yoga, Ancient Khemet, Alchemy, Platonism, etc.

Hm, I wonder what would have happened if I'd started reading the works of Manly P. Hall when only sixteen years old. Apparently I was not ready at the time.


Anyway, about the unfortunate in-fighting going in the various Golden Dawn sects, we'll quote something that was said in a Gnostic lecture in regard to Gnostic groups:

The Tower of Babel (1)

Listen: when you enter into this knowledge of Gnosticism, you will find many people whose personalities tend to say, "Let us build a Gnostic group, which we will call with another name." So, we see many groups everywhere, and people forming them saying, "Let us call it the New Order." Here is another saying, "Let us call it AGA or IGA, or CIGA, or AGEAC, or CEG, or AGEACAC, etc." Thus every group builds a particular idiosyncrasy related to their personality. And they say, "Now let us put on top of that tower a leader, an idol, a personality!" And the rule is that everybody who wants to be in that tower has to follow that personality, and they have many reasons why such a personality is so important. And you hear all the time, from every direction, from every group, "If you do not follow the one at the top of our tower, then you are on the wrong path." Nevertheless, in these sad cases, their mistake is that the personality has nothing to do with the Gnostic way. The Gnostic way is psychological (Psyche - Logos).

The personality is important. And yes, groups are necessary. This is why in this group to which we belong we respect all groups and we welcome all of the other groups. But we are not saying that our group is better or that in order to be in our group you have to worship some person, or follow somebody, or worship any idol, in other words, the personality of this individual because he is the one that follows after Samael Aun Weor, etc.

Listen: there is only one individual who is the head of this doctrine, this wisdom that we represent, and his name is Samael Aun Weor, who said: "I am only a messenger." The knowledge in itself belongs to the universe. Gnosis does not belong to any group or movement. Gnosis does not belong to any personality. Gnosis is universal, and belongs to Christ, who gives it to us through his messengers.

Thus, we have to make unity within and discover that unity inside of ourselves, and make a society based upon that, but if we forget that then we will fall into the "confusion of tongues." This is how we will start following idols, or precepts given by personalities who do not understand the Arcanum (the Ark), thus they built a tower of Babel and call it "gnostic."

As has been mentioned in other threads here, if you want to understand the Golden Dawn system, the advice generally suggested by Gnostic Instructors and students, is to study the writings of S.L. MacGregor Mathers, William Wynn Westcott, Dion Fortune, and Eliphas Levi, alongside the writings of Samael Aun Weor and the esoteric practices given by him. If you're somewhat skeptical about "Astral Initiation", then you could find a good Gnostic Lumisial and attend lectures as to hear what they have to say, and ask them questions, etc.

The Lumisials affiliated with Glorian Publishing (who maintain the ancient Three Chamber structure) avoid in-fighting, by their Gnostic Instructors' teaching for free and remaining as anonymous as possible.

Gnostic-Community

A Map of Gnostic Schools

See also:

Sacraments of the Gnostic Church Transcriptions

Sacraments of the Gnostic Church Audio-Lectures

Salaam

reply to post by Tamahu


Whats up Tamahu...

Samuel Aun Weor to be honest I had not really heard of until quite recently, I've seen you mention him in other threads on here and stuff. That site in your link Gnosticteachings.com is mainly his writings right? I've had that site bookmarked for a litle while now and have spent actually some time reading a lot of the writings on there, a lot of interesting stuff. And I will be completely honest with you from the things I've read on there there have been things I understand well and agree with, but then there are things that I can't seem grasp and understand.

Of course I'll be honest of a lot of the things I read that have to do with certain occult subjects, the mysteries whatever you want to call it I have trouble fully understanding and grasping... I'm still young though (25 going on 26). And I've been into these subjects since 16 or so, but not really like trying to get serious about it until the past 2 maybe 3 years. And pretty much all I have read is every single book about the golden dawn I could get my hands on, I prolly have 30 books or more just on the golden dawn, so thats why I made this thread i nthe first place I wan't to experience the things I've read about in these books.

Regarding blavatsky I read very minimal amounts of her work, but a very strange thing to me is that my wife loves blavatsky and shes read isis unveiled and the secret doctirine, but the reason I say this is strange is because my wife considers her self a thelemite and she LOVES crowley. And from what I know about blavatsky her ideas do not mesh with crowleys ideas at all. Doesnt make much sense to me, but shes my wife and I love her, lol. Anyways sorry for going off on that little tangent but I guess I'll check out either isis unveiled or the secret doctrine they are sitting on our bookshelf right now, which one would you reccomend I check out ?

Only dion fortune book I've read is mystical qabalah which is a book I quite like and have read it like 10 times. Amd steiner I have never heard of tbh, I'll look him up. And Vajrayana, Hindu Tantra and Yoga, Ancient Khemet, Alchemy, Platonism, I understand what all these things are but dont really know about them if you know what i mean. Except hindu tantra and yoga, which my wife is pretty damn knowledgable about but I don't really know much tbh.

And when it comes to people like levi call me dumb but I have such trouble tryin to follow his writings.

Anyways man send me a pm or something and reccomend me some books to get and read, I'm open to reading and atleast attemping to learn and understand things....

Anyways, sorry for my long rambling post... I am kinda out of it today.

Peace out and have a great day dude!

When I do occult work I usually assemble a small group. I call it a circle. I initiate those who needs access and do the work and then I disband the group after the work is done. In that way I can have flexible groups tailored to their purpose. Because occult ties are so strong and so important for the individual that I feel that when individuals grow it is best they have absolute flexibility to challenge everything they know. So, they learn, but they are free to work outside the group and maybe our path crosses later or maybe not. I can also guard the secrets better that way. And others have secret they also can guard from the other members better as well. And human hierarchy has never been the way of the Gods anyway.

reply to post by jeasahtheseer


Yep, that's poor old Jack. You are on the right track, man. I would say 'Keep going!" but that would sound pedantic and you will find you won't be able to stop anyway. You are seriously going at it the right way , friend. You have already made a giant dent in the reading. Are you Mathematically inclined or do you prefer the queen sciences (Anthropology, Sociology, Linguistics)?

Originally posted by crystalbeing
reply to post by jeasahtheseer

 

Sorry I cant help im not a member of any kind of brotherhoods but I wanted to ask why you dislike self initition so much? Wouldnt communicating with your higher self for knowledge be more benifititial then bending to the will of a group whom might not have the same desires as you?

Being initiated or working in groups is usually more beneficial because you have the group energy. Working in groups is a different experience because there is more energy and its blending.

Also, according to Napoleon Hill, in "Think and Grow Rich".. when 2 more people get together of like minds to accomplish something, a third mind is created out of the group, a "mastermind".

In occult terminatly this could be referred to an Egregore - a "thoughtform" or "collective group mind", an autonomous psychic entity made up of, and influencing, the thoughts of a group of people.