Islam promotes Terrorism.

reply to post by purplemer


Read the Koran as if you wanted to improve human solidarity and understanding. You wouldn't find many of the Koran's preachings to be fit for society or stable civilisation of understand between Believers and non-believers.

That encompasses freedom of religion and freedom FROM religion. You won't find it in the Koran, it promotes exclusivity, and preaches inferior consequences if you reject the faith. It wants everyone to follow Allah.

Look at theocratic states run by Islam - They are stil stoning women, disallowing them into Law Courts, punishing apostasy with death.

This isn't a hate thread, this is a humanist thread. I care about my fellow species, i want them to drop the religious dogma, their belief in God can still remain without the awful preachings of Matyrdom and Jihad.

Read the Koran, find the passages i quoted and educate me on my misunderstands. I'm more than happy to investigate your conviction that Islam is a religion of peace.

I know Muslims that are nice too, but i still dislike the ideology and the core preachings of discriminiation against non-believers.

Here's another source:

Qur'an (5:80) - "You will see many of them befriending those who disbelieve; certainly evil is that which their souls have sent before for them, that Allah became displeased with them and in chastisement shall they abide." Those Muslims who befriend unbelievers will abide in hell.

www.thereligionofpeace.com...

reply to post by awake_and_aware

i am not religous but i will defend peoples right to practise....the bible and the koran are not that different. they are from the same tree. people take religons and use them to control people that is a seperate issue it can happen with any relgion.

"For that cause, We decreed for the Children of Israel that whosoever kills a human for other than manslaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if he had killed all humanity; and whoso saves the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind." (Surah al-Ma'ida, V: 32)

O you who believe! Stand out firmly for Allah, as witnesses to fair dealing, and let not the hatred of others to you make you swerve to wrong and depart from justice. Be just: that is next to piety: and fear Allah. For Allah is well-acquainted with all that you do." (Surah al-Ma'idah, V: 8)

www.defending-islam.com...

kx

reply to post by inforeal


What a crock, Mohammed was driven out of Mecca for trying to steal the idol from his uncle, he claimed the divine told him to take the rock. Yes Mohammed claims that god spoke to him and told him the bible and Torah where corrupted but he got so many facts wrong that if you read what he said it makes no sense and it's obvious he was improvising as he went. Just look at the way he kept changing the religion to suite his (Mohammed's) current needs. Only the prophet gets more wives, god told him to marry a 6 year old girl and rape her 3 years later. Sorry don't buy that the Koran is the work of god, thought there is a line in the Koran that Mohammed knew he was possessed by a demon when he first had the "word" of god in his head. It's the only true statement in the Koran.

A pictures speaks a thousand words

I'm curious as to why we assume every religion and culture must fit within the Western culture's moral guidelines, and, when it does not, strive to convince ourselves it does.

Tell me, if Aztecs were still around today, how would their actions in the name of their religion be justified? Many consider them victimized heroes killed off by the evil Spanish, but their human sacrifice and cannibalism would be hard to justify.

We, in the Western culture, try to tell ourselves that every culture has as much of a right to exist as our own. Yet, the practice doesn't work since most other cultures do not feel the same way. Time and again through history, when one nation takes over another, all of their histories, myths and records were purged as that society was turned to the conquering one. It is only now that the Western culture, in its arrogance, has decided that every culture, present and past, can fit nicely within our moral bounds.

Does fundamental Islam advocate violence? Well, if the Qur'an is to be taken literally, that Mohammad said what he meant and meant what he said, then yes, it advocates violence. What about the Bible? The message God gave Israel advocated violence, too. God told the Jews that their culture would not mesh with those of Canaan, and so Canaan had to be wiped out in order to preserve Israel. The rest of the Old Testament Bible is the story of the ramifications of Israel not wiping out those other cultures.

That Islam promotes terrorism is just an extrapolation. It doesn't promote terrorism, it promotes conquest. And when you seek to conquer an enemy with larger numbers as well as a better trained and equipped military, the only course of action is to destroy the morale of the people -- i.e. terrorism. The west has demonized this form of warfare because it's effective. That those groups in the middle east say they agree is simply a case of effectively defining the terms in the debate and good marketing.

So I guess the real question is, does Islam fit completely into Western morality, and if not, who do you think should change?

reply to post by junglejake


Surely what you highlight is that morality is subjective and relative depending on faith, and culture (even time)?

All i assert is that religion does not have a monopoly on ethical and moral development. And we have since evolved from many of the ancient prejudice in our past. And there are far better means to developing and coherent social understanding than religious dogma (that encompasses both religious and non-religious).

My point still stands that a vast ammout of the Koran's scripture encourages discrimination against non-believers and promotes violence and physical assertiveness. That's fundamental in itself.

Again, i don't think religion should be free from criticism.

The ignorance here about the Hadith is rampant!

There's the Qur'an, supposedly the words of Allah, the Moon-god, and then there's the

Hadith - the words and deeds of Allah's prophet, who taught and practiced murder, looting, persecution, war, forced conversion, incest, pedophilia, domination of females, and about every other perversion and abomination known to man.

Look at your Islamic nations. You show me a Muslim country and I'll show you where a rich few subjucate the many, where the rape of women is not only tolerated but a generally accepted practice, but where the rape victims are murdered, where pedophilia is an approved practice, where torture is the preferred method of asking questions, and where illiteracy, disease, poverty, starvation, and misery rule.

Really got a lot going for it.

Originally posted by awake_and_aware
Again, i don't think religion should be free from criticism.

edit on 5/2/11 by awake_and_aware because: (no reason given)

My point as well. Yet many think that criticism is hate speech because, for whatever reason, their cultural and moral beliefs are beyond reproach. It tends to become even more vehement when something strikes close to the truth. Scientology tends to respond with litigation, where Islam tends to respond with cries of racism.

reply to post by awake_and_aware


personally, i think trying to convince people that jesus never existed is a bad idea because his teaching has been since a stabilizing influence. if it was suddenly proven that he never existed, the christians all over the world would become a totally different organism. and considering the things they've endured (like all religious groups seem to have to deal with), especially over the last 100 years, i'd hate to think of the result.

reply to post by awake_and_aware


And another anti-Islam thread

Look, your posting select passages that are arguably good, but luckily the vast majority of Muslims don't take it literally...just like most Christians don't take the bible literally. There's plenty of horrible passages in the bible that completely match those you Koran verses you posted

reply to post by FarArcher


i think the op needs to find out which quotes are
hadith and which are koran. and read them in context.

one of the problems i've found with discussions of this nature is people bring their prejudice with them. i use to do that too and decided i needed to start reading all texts as if they are true, first, and then comparatively analyze for things that seem to be out of place. in essence, i treat it like modern history, and then work from there, based on evidence and consistency.

reply to post by MrXYZ


Have you read the Koran, have you read all different versions, have you read the verses that encourage hostility towards non-believers?

Yes, it is another anti-Islam thread, because i believe the fundamental preachings to be immoral and directly related to Islamic cults interpretting the doctrine.

Matyrdom and Jihad are concepts that are written down in this absolutist faith.

And yes, Christianity is guilty of many immoral preachings, but Christianity has reformed, there are less militant groups, many demonimations and "amendments" of the original faith. This thread is not regarding Christianity.

Thanks for your participation.

reply to post by undo


I think you need to understand that a large proportion of both actively encourage hositility, discrimination and violence towards non-believers.

You're a writer, yes? I'm curious; what do you write about? What are you interested in?

reply to post by undo

Maybe.

Think about it.

The Qur'an came from Muhammed.

Then you have the words and deeds of Muhammed.

Same, identical source.

The only supposed prophet with zero abilities to do wonders to convince his listeners that he was speaking for divinity.

double post

reply to post by awake_and_aware


the book of revelation, chapter 9, refers to a place called the abyss or bottomless pit, that was also called the abzu, in ancient sumer, and that this abzu, was a device that generated an artificial wormhole. so i've written 3 ebooks on the topic. or topics related to it. i study and write about ancient history, particularly as it relates to the subject, and examples i've found in other ancient histories, fables, legends, myths and artifacts.

p.s. i think jesus was the last pharaoh of egypt. that he was from the line of david, and that several biblical patriarchs were pharaohs, and that the data was hidden from us for some reason. the gaps in knowledge for the general laity, is on purpose, and i don't know why that is either. i've been trying to figure it out, and all i can conclude is there's a whole heckuvalot missing from ancient texts, that if we all knew it today, the planet would erupt in world war 3 in about five seconds.

The koran is supposed to be eternal and unchanging so claims that certain parts of the koran are only for the early circumstances mo found himself in are a bit screwy

One thing you should be aware of with the koran is Abrogating/Nasikh Verses
inthenameofallah.org...

this is based around

2:106 None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten but We substitute something better or similar; knowest thou not that Allah hath power over all things?

So

[Nusikha Hikmuh wa baqyia Harfuh] (Quran abrogates Quran).
Such as the verse of the Sword verse [al Sayf] 9:05 which abrogates 124 earlier conciliatory Meccan verses. Such verses in the Quran number about 550.

Ibn 'Arabi said, "The verse of the 'sword' 9:5, has abrogated 124 verses of the Quran" (p. 69).

According to Ibn Kathir, that (the verse of the Sword) abrogated every peace treaty that had been made with the idolaters:

basically the nice stuff in the koran was written when mo was in a weak position but when mo got some power all nice verses where upgraded

Originally posted by awake_and_aware
You provided no referenceable source for your claims. If you can find the original arabic scriptures and translate for us, using the sources included on each passage and then assure us that this ideology does not promote discrimination against non-believers, or express ideology of Martyrdom and Jihad then please do go on.

But many historians have studied the original writings and concluded the same immoral preachings, these destructive and sinister preachings. Many moral and ethical philosophers deteste this wicked ideology.

For each passage, i want you to find the according verse, and tell me i am a liar and i have manipulated the original messages. If you are unwilling to do so, stop accusing me of being "wrong" and "biased"

So you post 3 pages worth of biasedly edited quotes and and lies (perhaps not originally yours, you took them from some biased website), and it is my job to fix it all? Instead, why don't you do research before posting a wall of quotes from an obviously biased website? I gave you one example (from the very first quote you provided, surprise, surprise) to show how you were wrong. Are you suggesting that:

Originally posted by awake_and_aware

"Slay them wherever you find them...Idolatry is worse than carnage...Fight against them until idolatry is no more and God's religion reigns supreme." (Surah 2:190-)

Is in ANY way an accurate portrayal of what the verses say (the verses which I previously posted in entirety in my previous post, without those '...' which leave out massive relevant portions of the text):

Originally posted by babloyi
190: Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors.
191: And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.
192: But if they desist, then lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
193: And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrong-doers.

I'm sure any sane person can look at the two and tell the difference. And don't talk that "oh, yours is a less tame translation" nonsense. NONE of the translations go anywhere near anything you quoted.
Lets reiterate:
The bit you quoted LIES (claiming it starts at 190, which would have been useful, but instead starts at 191, and mistranslates words into words that have NO connection at all), it has been MANIPULATED (removing large chunks of relevant text with ...) and thus is most definitely BIASED.

I don't think Islam promotes terrorism. I think misguided people who happen to be Muslim promote terrorism. That said I have to say this about the Virgin birth quote.

"'How shall I bear a child,' she [Mary] answered, 'when I am a virgin...?' 'Such is the will of the Lord,' he replied. 'That is no difficult thing for Him...God forbid that He [God[ Himself should beget a son!...Those who say: 'The Lord of Mercy has begotten a son,' preach a monstrous falsehood..." (Surah 19:12-, 29-, 88)

The Old Testament says this about a virgin birth.

Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Muslims claim to descendants of Abraham, personally I just can't believe it.