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Hi everyone, i was thinking that it is not the most logical thing to believe in a god or gods when when we have so much science that disproves large parts of it.
I would also like to ask if people could not use religious geniuses form the past as i am only talking about people who are alive today and please do not include someone who is simply good at playing the piano or a good dancer as i am looking for answers based on iq.
Originally posted by Kailassa
reply to post by Annee
Annee, some people are born with silver spoons in their mouths, some, such as yourself, are born wearing joggers and backpacks. Life has been quite a journey, one way or the other.
Originally posted by lewman
reply to post by sinohptik
159 is pretty high, i think above 140 comes under genius(Einstein's was apparently 160) , plus some IQ tests are only 30 questions long so it is relatively easy to do ace as long as you are very good at math and spacial awareness, luckily (for my sake)spelling and grammar normally doesn't come into it
You have an obvious confounder. High-status intellectuals (Bertrand Russell, Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, ...) choose to call themselves atheist.
Lower-status intellectuals would predictably follow suit.
Since IQ scores are used as a barrier to entry in knowledge occupations, atheists would skew high on social imitation grounds alone.
Originally posted by sinohptik
reply to post by Kailassa
Interesting, in the reading i have been doing, such a thing doesnt happen in the generally accepted IQ test (mainly the stanford-binet and cattell). I wonder what other test they had at that time. About what era was it?
Take your example, Galileo. He accepted God, rejected geocentrism, and we all have a general idea of how that followed (though some people think it's a lot worse than it actually was). Had he rejected God...what would have happened to him? Kind of obvious back then.
There's also the other thing, God of the gaps. Many intellectual theists, particularly in times such as Galileo's, had to hold theism as the only tenable position due to the vast lack of understanding of nature...
We have thousands of years where declaring atheism was a very brave act, so how can historical examples count for anything?
And this is a discussion of trends, not individuals. Not all atheists are going to be smarter than all theists and not all theists are going to be smarter than all atheists, ...
OK, you meant to ask whether living atheists as a group have a different distribution of measured IQ than the tested residents of the First World generally.
Then there's the unsupported claim about rank and file academics and intellectuals following ...
And high-status intellectuals (Robert T Bakker, Ken Miller, Francis Collins) also choose to call themselves theists. Sure, their popular status isn't as big, but their professional status is. Robert T Bakker is a legend of paleontology, Ken Miller is a public champion of biology, and Francis Collins heads up the Human Genome Project.
Originally posted by eight bits
But Galileo didn't reject God. On the contrary, he was a cradle Catholic, and remained so throughout his life. So, we don't know what would have happened if he had felt otherwise, and no, it isn't at all obvious. Catholic creed-cops aren't psychic. If Galileo didn't parade his religious opinions, then who would know what they were?
And since Galileo's actual, devout religious writings did him little good, it is hard to see how their absence would have done him much harm.
There's also the other thing, God of the gaps. Many intellectual theists, particularly in times such as Galileo's, had to hold theism as the only tenable position due to the vast lack of understanding of nature...
Uh, huh. We disagree whether religion explains anything temporal, and so whether many people look to religion for something that it simply may not provide. There seems little point in reviving our disagreement here. It is off-topic, and would be derailing to pursue.
We have thousands of years where declaring atheism was a very brave act, so how can historical examples count for anything?
Portraying a sitting Pope as jackass was a very brave act, too. Galileo did it. Surely that historical example counts for something.
And this is a discussion of trends, not individuals. Not all atheists are going to be smarter than all theists and not all theists are going to be smarter than all atheists, ...
We are in agreement, then.
OK, you meant to ask whether living atheists as a group have a different distribution of measured IQ than the tested residents of the First World generally.
Then there's the unsupported claim about rank and file academics and intellectuals following ...
I didn't make any claim, I pointed out the irrebuttable fact that social imitation is a confounder.
That means that social imitation is a possibility which would need to be eliminated or controlled in a competent experimental design which attempted to establish a difference in "general intelligence" between atheists and some larger population which included them.
And high-status intellectuals (Robert T Bakker, Ken Miller, Francis Collins) also choose to call themselves theists. Sure, their popular status isn't as big, but their professional status is. Robert T Bakker is a legend of paleontology, Ken Miller is a public champion of biology, and Francis Collins heads up the Human Genome Project.
So what? I said social imitation was a confounder.
If you want to deal with a confounder, then you measure it and control for it. You don't trot out just-so stories about how not every high-status individual is an atheist. Nobody said that everyone of high-status is an atheist.
Originally posted by sinohptik
my hypothesis is that current IQ tests measure analytical ability more than anything else. This would correlate quite well with the core nature of the "atheist."
Originally posted by bogomil
I must admit, that it was somewhat cryptic, skipping some steps etc. The idea is, that none of the commonly known characteristics defining a human being is THE access to whatever beyond-event-horizon is. Neither is any of such characteristics on its own able to support any advanced abstractions as e.g. a complex ideology (whereas simplistic doctrinal systems can be related to in black/white attitudes of low-intellectual considerations or random/moody emotional reactions).
So neither intellect nor any other human attribute is identical with 'higher' expressions/experiences of existence.
Hope this clarifies, but both for the last and this present post: My bad for being unclear.
I agree with you on the element of indoctrination leading to polarized attitudes, either for or against the indoctrination; but if education is done on principles of liberalism and with the aim of 'learning to learn' religion will scrutinized before accepted, not passively accepted.
This does not exclude the possibility, that well-educated persons can choose religion after a scrutiny, but it will reduce the religious populace as compared to that of passive acceptance. Northern Europe where I live is an example. Black/white doctrinal religions are down to 5% active participation amongst the indigenous population, which has benefitted from our general educational system. Second-generation immigrants show a similar tendency (though slower because of a certain degree of non-integration in mainstream).
But it's not a moot-point with me.
I make the guess, that you're a US citizen, and possibly with little firsthand contacts with europeans. If I'm correct in this, some of the cultural differences between americans and europeans would surprise you concerning the 'values' of life. Some of the attractive aims in US can be considered insignificant, even 'vulgar', in Europe, and the 'measuretapes' varies correspondingly. Sorry, maybe cryptic again. It means, that social darwinism is more pronounced in US, so US individuals are measured according to their social status more than to individual character and 'drives' become an important part of sociopsychological imprinting.
Thus I wouldn't be especially interested in the job, education, intelligence or religion of a stranger (this is a rather sweeping generalization, but does represent a kind of statistical average).
.
Originally posted by sinohptik
To clarify my own position, i do not view an IQ score as a outright level of intelligence. I feel it tests the analytical ability of an individual, and not much beyond that. But, i am just now educating myself on the tests themselves, so its still a limited understanding. I personally think they are quite a few different forms of "intelligence" and if one has a great leaning and skill towards one, then they will likely be lacking in other areas of "intelligence."
I am not so sure about education playing the vital role in atheism, but i would definitely say it plays a part.