Walkom: Why Ottawa's new border scheme is such a loser

reply to post by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi

I wish I could travel Canada, I dream this all the time, but all I can do now is work hard to obtain my political science degree while coming up with the cash to afford a couch to sleep on and some canned food to eat. I can only hope that my country does not shoot itself in the foot some more for the next three years.

When I was in my teens I spent the better part of a year touring Canada with a bar band I played in. There are some incredible sights to be seen in Canada that can take your breath away. Some of the small towns we played in were just amazing, and each really often had it's own unique flavor and culture, sometimes based on the local industry that supported the town, sometimes on the local geography, sometimes just the identity that the town grew itself.

Once you get out of the poulation zones in the West or East Coast, a lot of the towns are 30, 50, 100 miles apart, with very little but wilderness and the train tracks between them. So each one tends to be kind of unique.

Wow did I meet some great and very interesting and very intelligent people there. If you get the chance you really would enjoy seeing those places. The bars were wonderful places to meet people, and not a lot of 'strangers' move in and out of those towns, so in reality finding that couch or bed to sleep in is not that hard. I seldom ever slept in the hotel or motel rooms booked for the band because someone would always invite me to stay at their house.

I sure hope we don't end up screwing Canada up as bad as we have the pooch here.

Now if you could just grow some palm trees and declare a 80-90 degree weather year round zone!

reply to post by Xcathdra


The main problem with us, Canadians is we have it too good. Look at our country and you'll see some of the happiest ignorant people in the world. Not through lack of education, nor from msm brainwashing, but from good old home grown contentment. Take a look at the world through our eyes and you might understand why.

Stability for one. Out government may change, but we usually know where the chips will fall. Central Canada votes liberal, and because of the disparity in our electoral system it ensures they play a huge role. Western Canada votes conservative and gets to complain, until the next election, about central Canada. The maritimes are like an impoverished carribean country, a little backward slow paced and good salt of the earth people, who vote regionally like Quebec. Followed by the north, which is as foreign to most Canadians as Antarctica. It's the same story but with different players throughout history. While everyone complains about the government, it's always there, and usually the same. So it gives us a sense of business as usual.

Secondly, no matter what, in Canada life is sweet. It's as simple as that. Just take a look around...we've got it all, a healthcare system somewhat functioning, an economy that manages to keep it's head, a fun national sport(or pastime whatever), natural beauty, natural resources, a great military history without being aggressors, extremely high international standing, no overwhelming racism, and a national track record that while not spotless, is certainly cleaner then our neighbours to the south. You see life is great! So we tend to keep smiling and turning a blind eye to the bad stuff.

Next, we're kinda small. Not land wise, but population wise. So without, all y'know the problems that accompany a large population in a smaller country we have less to worry about. Not everything is super urgent, we're a little more self sufficient by region, and as another poster said, our cultures vary. While we identify with being Canadian, because of the distances involved and the gaps in between population centers it makes having a cohesive identity more difficult. So we keep our head down, and snicker at the other parts of Canada we think are weird.

So the lack of defense is more a nonchalant attitude, a shrug and meh because things are fine (even when they aren't). But the one thing that does stir our blood, is American arrogance. All Canadians are wary of the united states for various reasons. Regardless if our warriness is warranted or not, it exists and it may be the only thing that will wake up the public. The USA forgets this at their peril, because when their thoughts inevitably turn back to manifest destiny, the younger generations will not stand for it.

With the winter Olympic victories, we saw a true uniting movement begin. Why is that relevant? Because we see ourselves as winners, as the cool kids, as a patriotic country. To encroach on our sovereignty now means, facing a nation that believes in itself. With the right spin, this news could destroy Harper and our friendship with the Americans. Like the students in the UK, if word got out that we no longer controlled our own borders, making us little more then a state, mass outrage would erupt. And as another poster said, would Canadian soldiers who routinely work as peacekeepers rather then warriors, fire upon their own citizens because a government they are apathetic towards told them to? I doubt it. But I wouldn't hold my breath, like I said it would take the right spin.

welcome to canuckistan, ruled by bush-lite jr. and his pack of kiss ass puppies.

do bad canadians don't have any balls to fight this, because these are grounds for treason.

imagine if it was the other way around, canada taking over border control for all americas coast and mexico. there'll be mass riots and anarchy.

not in canuckistan, they just pull down their pants.

It would seem the push to create the alleged North American Union is well underway through integration of policing and governance(along with the construction of the NAFTA Superhighway to tie it all together). I fear it's only matter of time before everyone in North America is carrying a singular form of ID. Nations are becoming 'so last century'...


I could be wrong,but then again...

Originally posted by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi
NAFTA opened up the gates to the US taking over our TV industry. We have what now, 10% Canadian content in the Canadian media (at best)?

Wiki (if believed) says your numbers are way off. More like 35% for radio and higher for TV. It gets masked by daytime operation but the fact remains that even if it were 2% it's still unfathomably awful content. US content I would argue is preferred why else would the CRTC have to mandate such levels or force feed the unique entertainment offerings of Canada then ?

Originally posted by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi
You think we are smelly hippies? And we think people to the East are greedy politicians. This is the common misperception of Canadians who live in such a large and diverse country, but who will only experience so much of it and not the whole.

That was a terrible attempt from me to counter the pussy eastern comment, neither of which is substantiated.

Originally posted by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi
That's just a stereotype. I'm not saying Canadian stereotypes are uncommon though, in fact they have way too much influence among peoples' perception of this country.

So much of a stereotype that the HST implementation specifically reneged on its original implementation so as to not include coffee & donuts. Hortons is the #1 fast food service in Canada, a sad admission. What better way to appease the masses than to not tax their #1 treat. No there's no stereotype in place Like I said give Canadians the simple offerings or present the matter to its worst degree, pull back a bit, and all is forgiven. This happens with gas costs too. The list is endless.

Originally posted by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi
I did not necessarily say you did agree with it. However, I disagree with your view that we cannot do anything about it, because we can and will. The only reason why I am still in this country is because I have hope for a brighter Canadian future than the country that it is now, ransacked by greedy and out-of-touch pro-American politicians.

Yup we agree there but I'm still waiting for to see some semblance of Canadian discontent that prompted action. Not gonna happen, its a pipe dream (unless they double the cost of coffee).

Originally posted by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi
"Those who ignore history, tend to repeat it". There is a reason why Canadian history is important for Canadians to learn and understand. To say that it means nothing is wrong, it has shaped us and we have a duty to maintain the virtues that our country was founded on. If we just sit back and allow the US to hijack us, then we have lost everything, and we are no longer Canada.

Canada has her place I just don't believe the common person has any ability or concern to address it. Petitioning is cute but a pointless endeavor. Canadians are balls deep in apathy.

brill

reply to post by Xiamara


You completely missed my point and argument. Thats fine. Win some, you loose some.

Foreign Affairs Minister Lawrence Cannon and U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton suggested Monday that the sweeping new deal is merely about ensuring the status quo in the face of security fears that bog down traffic across the border.

“We are very conscious of the stakes . . . We want this to enhance not just security but trade and commercial activity, business connections, people-to-people travel, recreation, tourism,” Clinton said.

“We are, I think, committed to discussing and arriving at conclusions about how best to deal with the environment in which we find ourselves today,” she said.

The two nations are reportedly in talks about a proposed pact that would give Washington a much bigger say in Canada’s border security, immigration controls and information-sharing with American law-enforcement agencies.

“Beyond the Border: A Shared Vision for Perimeter Security and Competitiveness” is the title of the tentative deal, which carries the subtitle: “A Declaration by the President of the United States of America and the Prime Minister of Canada.”

www.thestar.com...

I like the bolded part. Sure, it's an opinion but I feel it's more of a prophecy.

A prophecy of American government forces like the TSA, Homeland Security, Coast Guard and assorted (I fear this is the real reason) US military forces and permanent bases on Canadian soil.

Originally posted by masqua
A prophecy of American government forces like the TSA, Homeland Security, Coast Guard and assorted (I fear this is the real reason) US military forces and permanent bases on Canadian soil.

And for a moment lets suppose this happens. These engagements are done at a level to which the common person has zero input, absolutely no control or no review process. Political opposition, as usual, would prove useless. If this proposal is justified, and let's be honest it wouldn't take much, it would proceed. If typical Canadians were presented with a glossed over picture showing improved, faster security -or- the erosion of their "culture" which do you think would prevail in this day and age? I'm thinking if Canadians can handle TSA molestation to get to a discount mall in the US faster that will win hands down every single time.

brill

reply to post by brill


I seriously doubt that, though considering our dollar is nearly at par with the American dollar then that may just be how the governments will spin the situation.

There will be some advocacy activity against these proposals if pushed through.

As a Canadian I do not ever want to 'become' an American because my government sells our country to the USA.

However look at all the sh*t happening in the world, and we all know the big WW3 is teetering soon. Just let the USA watch over our boarders too, they have better military weaponry anyways. It would also mean we get to have better security technology as well.

And in a perfect world, that would be it with no interfearance of US govermental issues or laws trying to be imposed on onto our nation. Also Canadians could get a CANADA card and Americans cold get a USA card, and we could eliminate all that boarder security sh*t. I just got a full body pat down/rub down the other week simply flying between Winnipeg, and Calgary within Canada's boarders! I thought that junk was only going to be for international flights to 'suspicious' countries the US doesn't like.

I have a few more things to say on this subject too, but I'm actually bored now of this site and I am going to watch Family Guy. ta ta.

I will add though with Canada being to resource rich, with more then enough to share why wouldn't the USA being trying to cozy up to us now after treating us like a 3rd world nation all these years.

They need us, and because we have all the goods we are going to need a good security guard, and everyone knows Canada has been bending over for the USA for years, might as well make it legal! Adopt us as part of their 'Commonwealth' or some nonsense like we have to the Queen.

If not, Russia is going to steal our Artctic property, and whatever is hidden their, or China is going to miss one day, and one of those missles is going to take our some of our real estate. Time to put the knee pads on.

Originally posted by loagun
However look at all the sh*t happening in the world, and we all know the big WW3 is teetering soon. Just let the USA watch over our boarders too, they have better military weaponry anyways. It would also mean we get to have better security technology as well.

*facepalm*

Our security is OUR business. We secure OUR sovereign boundaries.

If the US secures our borders for us, then our borders are their borders. This is the whole point. No other country in the world willingly allows another nation to "secure" them, because that's called being a colony in an empire. Did Hawaii ask the US to secure it or did the US invade it by force? How about Puerto Rico, which was provided "security" by the US, treated as a territory with no real rights within the American constitution, and its people forced to produce goods for the greater US?

People need to see through this bloody illusion. The US is not a friendly nation and you would have to be extremely uneducated, insane or a traitor to allow the US to "secure" our borders, economy, military, and political institutions, and this is exactly where common Canadian complacency has lead us. The US is still trying to assimilate us as part of Operation Crimson, which has been a top priority of the US ever since the US assumed independence.

Do you even know that there is a clause in the US declaration of independence that specifically states that any territory wishing to join the US must be voted in by congress, EXCEPT for Canada, which can assume official state status whenever it chooses to surrender its sovereignty to the US?

And what is surrendering sovereignty exactly?
-Destroying our national industries, and signing a pact allowing US corporations to take over our industries, CHECK.
-Giving our military high command to American hands, CHECK.
-Allowing the US to secure our borders, ALMOST THERE.
-Official US government control of our government, not quite yet.

if you noticed i didn't finish my whole post, and was also being somewhat sarcastic which i thought was evident, anyways now i will write something....


so in history, and with time, through civilizations, and with the wind things change. thing's morph, twist, evolve, combined, and are created. that is life, and that is the nature of life itself.

Canada is great being Canada. I wish she could stay, and protect herself forever, but it's not reality. The reality of Canada and the USA is, as it always has been since their beginnings was and is to becoming increasingly closer, and more intertwined. This is something that cannot be argued with, or disputed as it has been happening in front of our eyes all these years, and know it

Countries don't last forever, and we all know that. It's in the history books, they rise, and fall, or sink, or get blown up. Hell, we are even witnessing the slow and painful death of a once great empire literally over there....
It's not going to happen though, because Canada can save them. Like it has happened before with regions, townships, cities, and countries for hundreds and thousands of years, partnerships, alias, and unions have been made because that things move forward.

It is unfortunate how corrupt our partner is, but at the same time I don't think any of the G8 members are that pure in the least bit

Powers are growing, wards are brewing, and thing;s are going to happen, As I already mentioned I wish Canada could always be independent, but the reality of it's current place in the global play is that of an old woman walking through a dark alley filled with wolves with large dripping steak tied around her neck,

Again, it is unfortunate we live in a world as corrupt as it is, and that we don't nearly measure up in defenses to the evilest of nations. The plus side is that we live in great country, and the developed world. The plus side is that our nation is given the choice of evolving into a safer region for it's people, legacy, and history. The plus side is that Canada+USA will the world power.

You have to be realistic, and accept it happens , and always has all over the world except we aren't being taken over with brute force and murdered at the same time. We are also not going to take on the title of the 51st state, or 'USA North', and just abandon our laws, and sovereignty, and throw it all out the window next year, or even the next.

Look how slow it's taken to get the two countries here to this point, and be glad you weren't born in Israel, or South Korea.


*** ADD ***

p.s.


i wonder if our wedding is going to be as big as William and Kate's

You have to be realistic, and accept it happens , and always has all over the world except we aren't being taken over with brute force and murdered at the same time. We are also not going to take on the title of the 51st state, or 'USA North', and just abandon our laws, and sovereignty, and throw it all out the window next year, or even the next.

i wonder if our wedding is going to be as big as William and Kate's

Hypocrite. I am as real as it gets, and I don't give a damn about any of the royals except the Queen, because she is our supreme authority.

You want to compare Canada to an old woman? She is not old, she is young and beautiful and shines bright in a world of violence and corruption. The US rapes Canada by taking her money, her jobs, her security, and now you think Canada should marry the US and let it be?

What you speak is blind treason. You can love being a little American drone all that you want. When the Americans come to assume control over my homeland, I will be out there alongside my people, armed to the teeth. I will fight and die for my country and for all of my Canadian ancestors that have fought and died against American annexation for hundreds of years.

To live is to fight. To give up and surrender is to die and become a puppet to the American empire. As the saying goes, "better to die on your feet than live on your knees".

It's beginning to look like it's only the Harper government that's primarily behind this initiative:

That’s not the direction the U.S. is going. Ms. Clinton, Mr. Jacobson’s boss at the U.S. State Department, has talked of efforts to “harden the border” between Canada and the U.S.

Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano has similarly expressed a desire for “a real border” between the two countries and ensuring that Canada and Mexico are treated equally when it comes to security.

Ms. Clinton and Ms. Napolitano’s actions speak even more convincingly of their true intentions. Heavier security and more intrusive red tape have conspired to make the border a lot stickier this decade – a trend that has accelerated during the Obama administration.

www.theglobeandmail.com...

Further on in the story:

The sheer weight of this heightened security has overwhelmed a handful of isolated pilot projects dedicated to co-operative security, such as the joint RCMP-U.S. Coast Guard efforts to patrol the waters off the B.C. coast during the Olympics.

Uhuh... I believe it.

On the secretive aspect:

Bob Rae thinks he’s figured out the Conservative’s strategy about a proposed North American perimeter arrangement with the United States: Play it down until it’s all signed, sealed and delivered and then spring it on Canadians.

“The Cons don’t want anyone talking about this until the deal is done,” the Liberal foreign affairs critic told The Globe this weekend. “There would appear to be a draft agreement, and a roll-out plan.”
www.theglobeandmail.com...

The 'draft propsal' further into the above story:

“We intend to pursue a perimeter approach to security, working together within, at and away from the borders of our two countries in a way that supports economic competitiveness, job creation and prosperity, and in a partnership to enhance our security and accelerate the legitimate flow of people and goods between our two countries,” says part of the draft proposal obtained by The Globe and Mail’s Steven Chase.

And, lastly, to round out the calming effects

“They figure they’ve only got three more Question Periods [the House is to rise Friday for the Christmas break but MPs could leave as early as Wednesday] before they leave for six weeks … so there will be more of these bromides for the next three days,” the Liberal MP told The Globe.

Go to sleep, Canada. Nothing to see here. String up some lights for the season, drink some egg nog and don't worry, be happy.

It would also include a closer working relationship for the Canadian and U.S. militaries in emergencies, building on a 2008 agreement that sets out rules for how each country can call for the other’s assistance.

The Draft Proposal

Maybe America doesn't really WANT the extra expense.

holy crap the wedding part was a joke, chillllll.

We all know the US has treated Canada like sh*t over the years, and only tolerated the bond between us for our resources. However regardless oh how you or I view it, as you mentioned the raping of our nation, the evidence only points to one thing: Canada has let it happen for decades and decades.

Canada plays the nice guy, and that's what we the citizens were taught and about our 'peaceful' ways. Well wake up man, we haven't been raped all these years, we have been a willing participant in whatever the USA wanted us to be a part of. There's probably tons and tons of classified corruption we don't even know that our country has been involved in.

We might have been taught we were independent, but live our comfy cushy lives because we are bonded to the USA, and now because the USA apparently got beat up and left on our doorstep they reallllllly need us to jump start anything they hope to be once again.

The only difference with these signing of unions is that its in the public eye for us to actually see. Behind closed door's we are each other's b*tch and always have been, sorry.



*** ADD ***


quote "Maybe America doesn't really WANT the extra expense."


They probably don't, and in fact I don't think either country really cares for the other these days. It's like a marriage of convenience, and the two take from each other what they need, and try to have little to do with the other outside of that.

lol dude.
Who's coming up with me to muskoka for a cottage party?
It doesn't matter what they do, I will head for Muskoka and live in the woods pretending it is still Canada.
Oh man how I love the smell of gasoline and lake water in the morning.
Can't say we didn't see it coming?
Something tells me an annex is more than necessary to the powers that be.
But seriously...
They can't take the Canuck out of a Canadian.
Not a cottage going one anyways.

Originally posted by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi

You have to be realistic, and accept it happens , and always has all over the world except we aren't being taken over with brute force and murdered at the same time. We are also not going to take on the title of the 51st state, or 'USA North', and just abandon our laws, and sovereignty, and throw it all out the window next year, or even the next.

i wonder if our wedding is going to be as big as William and Kate's

Hypocrite. I am as real as it gets, and I don't give a damn about any of the royals except the Queen, because she is our supreme authority.

You want to compare Canada to an old woman? She is not old, she is young and beautiful and shines bright in a world of violence and corruption. The US rapes Canada by taking her money, her jobs, her security, and now you think Canada should marry the US and let it be?

What you speak is blind treason. You can love being a little American drone all that you want. When the Americans come to assume control over my homeland, I will be out there alongside my people, armed to the teeth. I will fight and die for my country and for all of my Canadian ancestors that have fought and died against American annexation for hundreds of years.

To live is to fight. To give up and surrender is to die and become a puppet to the American empire. As the saying goes, "better to die on your feet than live on your knees".

edit on 14-12-2010 by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi because: (no reason given)

Your first statements reminded me of lord of the rings for some reason. You are Mordor to our Gondor.
Don't ask... It's a cold morning in the absence of coffee.

Originally posted by masqua
It's beginning to look like it's only the Harper government that's primarily behind this initiative

Frankly, that is the key to this entire discussion. We are not going to hide behind trees and use our much-vaunted long guns to protect our sovereignty. This ain't 1837.

However, we can toss those neocon/theocon Reform-a-Tories out on their butts come next election.

That, we can do!

But press leaks indicate that the aim is to fully integrate Canadian and U.S. border enforcement..

Seems that for some reason, the U.S. government doesn't want to properly deal with its own border with Mexico. The resulting, detrimental impact on the United States is in terms of environmental destruction, resource allocation, crime, welfare and general social cohesion is self-evident. So, whilst Land is being raped and pillaged..whilst the majority's wishes are ignored or just side-stepped..and whilst American troops are busy overseas 'defending our country'..

No wonder concerns are raised.