Why do Americans hate Socialism/Communism?

Originally posted by russ212
Socialism is very much like communism. You are saying that it is Capitalism with regulation, and you are not correct.

Depending on what he means you are both correct.

Socialism is the halfway point between Communism and Capitalism.

Capitalism has regulation built into the system.

O RLY?

Capitalism concentrates wealth within a small portion of the population that controls the means of production and creates wealth through a system of exploitation.

Deregulation is what allowed Wall Street to create default credit swaps and siphon wealth from the middle class to fill their coffers and bring about the situation we are in now. This is just one example.

Socialism is capitalism that allows the government to take your earnings and give them to someone else.

The funny thing is that as you say this Capitalism has always used to taxation to perform the same function. Marxist Socialism is akin to the Communism that America so reviles, but there are different kinds with different objectives. The common thread is the collective ownership of the means of production.

Communism is the government owns everything, and distributes it equally. (Well thats the concept of communisim anyways.)

I see this being repeated again and again, but it is revisionism. Communism is the collective control of the means of production. That's all.

The totalitarian governments that existed via communist regimes is an aspect of Communism the same way that Fascism is an aspect of Capitalism. But we all know that you can have capitalism without Hitler and we can have communism with out Stalin.

The rich, the ones who currently control the means of production, seek to demonize any and all forms of communist thought. Communism does not deprive the poor or middle class, it is advantageous to us. Only the rich are deprived of their power by us redistributing their wealth created off our backs, it is actually our wealth not the states or the corporate elite.

Originally posted by snusfanatic
reply to post by Wally Hope

 

if you make the government (and therefore the people) the common owners of an industry and start regulating that industry to allocate its resources based on planning instead of market forces, then you have socialized that industry. socialism isn't just about 'production.'

There needs to be a balance between making that socialised industry profitable yet also allowing it to compete with the private sector.

Here in the UK, we have the wonderful National Health Service, ok it's not profit making but a National Industry can be..

Yes, the NHS isn't perfect, far off, but we have private Companies here to allow people to pay that little bit extra and get a better service.

Originally posted by Rob37n
Why do Americans have such a great hatred of Socialism and Communism? Where did it spring from and when did it arise? I don't mean the insanity of communism in Russia/China/North Korea etc., but the more liberal approach taken by the UK, Sweden, and a host of other countries.

Why is Liberal such a dirty word in America?

What exactly is wrong with universal health care? Surely the aim of major industrialized nations should be to ensure that all it's citizens are healthy, educated, and there is a safety net for when things go wrong for people.

I don't understand from where the vehemence of the American argument stems. I am not saying all Americans, but it does seem to be the prevailing opinion from the European perspective.

Let me put it to you this way, so you will understand.

WE JUST WANT TO BE LEFT ALONE. LEAVE ME THE **** ALONE. MY MONEY IS MY MONEY.

Get it?

reply to post by JonoEnglish


No, but I see most of it as theft. Should my money be taken from me to be spent on a war I don't agree with, or to fund the murder of an infant? Heck, I'm paying money to fund launching missiles at the moon! Taxes that pay the reasonable salaries of government workers whose sole attention is to administer justice and govern the people are taxes that should definitely be paid. Taxes to fund people pet projects and personal interests are theft plain and simple.

Some taxes are good and necessary, but too many of them are just wrong.

WE JUST WANT TO BE LEFT ALONE. LEAVE ME THE **** ALONE. MY MONEY IS MY MONEY.

Get it?



genius.

reply to post by violence=answer


LOL..I felt the same way .

It made LOL and ,for the second time, today, I have peed my self because of post like that ,

sigh , again off to change my skivies

Originally posted by SLAYER69
Well I dunno, we have some very history in Eastern Europe and China they ran those areas for decades unmolested. The proof is in the pudding. By all means research and while you're at it Ask some of the people who actually lived through it and stop regurgitating something you read in a biased book.

And speaking of that, why dont you ask some of the people who actually lived through it, ha? I can tell you right now you are wrong on most, if not all counts.

I have lived in that eastern europe, in a socialist, communist country. Its name was Yugoslavia. It was economicaly, politicaly and socialy the most productive period my people has ever seen. Numerous factories were built. Everyone could get a job after school. Everyone!!!
Some of those jobs were made up from thin air, so that everyone would have a workplace. Yes, some people were layed back, not hard working. But nobody was hungry. Today, numerous old people who have worked their entire lifetime cant live of their pension, they go digging through garbage. Why? Because this new "capitalist and free, democratic" country has stolen and ruined their pension fund. Because we now have the worst economic situation since post WW2. Because in capitalism/democracy your well-being is irrelevant. What matters is the interest of those few that hold the cash. You can't deny that anymore. Not after the "bailouts".

Even though the eficiency of the average worker in that ex country was rather low compared to the western worker, we managed to feed everyone, completely rebuild (6, today independent, member countries) after ww2 and manage to get to an unprecedented level of product export to "the third world", in line with the countries policy of being Non-aligned (in the cold war) and cooperating with India, Egypt and so on.

We have been a capitalist state for 20 years now, and you know what we got? Everything that was owned by the people is now owned by foreign companies. We cant make ends meet with an average salary.

I can understand your fear of "them comunists". You have been collectively fed bull**** about it for 50+ yrs. But repeating that bull**** that doesn't add up to an argument.

Another important thing to note is that socialism has nothing to do with communism per se. Some people see it as the same thing, other people know they are not.

Socialism means you dont get to end up on the streets and freeze to death because you lost your job. Basicaly. Yes, it also means you pay some more taxes. Allthough, how much taxes is a totaly different topic. That is open to debate. In my opinion, it is not open to debate whether or not it is a good thing to help every member of the society when he needs it. Its more a question of humanity than a political issue. The only political issue is how to get there.

Yes, in socialism many people dont want to work. Yes, there is some injustice in it. But then, is capitalism just?
If you believe so, then I believe you dont know the first thing about it.

Some people here mentioned that socialism is the reason for rioting in europe. That is such laughable and pathetic misconception! People are rioting in europe because your bloody government started a bank crashing wave that european capitalists try to use at their advantage and take money from europeans just as they have from americans. People are rioting because they wont have it.

Btw. Stalin was a sick dictator, and what he created was a national-communism, as opposed to Trocky's International-communism. The story of communism itself is very complicated and full of layers, and I believe one cannot express about it properly on internet forums. So I think its better to stick with just socialism.

reply to post by AdAbsurdum


I'm relatively new to posting, do not know how to quote remarks, so apologies in advance.

You replied: So, what would your life be like if you didn't have the opportunity to work hard? Not everyone has the same opportunities. Not everyone is given a "shot". Some people in America live in 3rd world conditions and the alternative is to forsake their cultural identity for a chance at at a lifestyle that runs counter to their spiritual beliefs just to feed themselves.

I expect you see that as a viable alternative and a choice. But, that's easy from your ethnocentric viewpoint. Try to understand the condition of the have-nots. You have no job when you are 16, not because you are lazy but because they don't exist. Your education system is lacking if it even exists so you have little hope of getting a degree. When you finally do find work some where people like yourself view the person as lazy and unreliable because you can not fathom them having different life experiences from your own.

Everyone has the opportunity to work hard (I am not talking about the handicapped, elderly, etc...I believe I mentioned that some social programs are needed). I was never given a "shot", I am where I am, and have what I have due to hard work. I totally understand the have nots, just because my opinion runs counter to yours, do not assume I have lived some easy existense, what did I do when times were tough, got a second job delivering pizzas, I did not expect someone to take care of me.

This was your response to my comment about the presidents speech: Actually a lot of people did. See, you had to travel to get there. You had to eat food grown, processed, transported, etc. You had to have water that came from some where. You wore clothes that were produced by some one. The list goes on and on.

You see, that life experience and that opportunity was made possible because of the collective effort of people who aren't lucky enough to be in your shoes and those that were.

Yes, but how does that mean I owe them? My taxes help pay the salaries of the road crews, My dollars spent on clothing, food or water go to those that created or supply said goods...those experiences were made possible because people worked, and were paid for a good or service.

You ended with: See, I've lived in Gov't Housing Projects. What I see is a bunch of people doing the best they can with what they got. I've seen people commit a crime for the sole purpose of getting arrested so they have some where to sleep and food to eat. Have you thought about what it must be like to be in that position? Have you looked into what it would cost to treat the problems that create crime in the first place against how many of your tax dollars go towards imprisoning that person?

The world you live in isn't everyone's.

Again, people have choices...there should be limits, these programs should be short term answers, not a lifestyle. The system itself creates a recipient class. If you are on welfare, or food stamps, should you be buying booze and smokes, IMO, NO, it should not be allowed. Mandatory drug tests if you are in these systems, YES...if you fail, you are out.

My 17 year old tried to tell me there were no jobs...nothing, I've tried dad, there is just nothing out there...I took him out watched him get applications, helped him fill them out...in less than a week he had a job.

Again, apologies for what will probably be a hard thread to read!

I remember going to the Berlin wall as a child. That wall was a direct result of communism. It was the physical representation of communism. So I think my views against socialism/communism are probably very different, but I remember the stories of people trying to cross the wall, being shot and killed because the communist government that was supposed to be so Utopian, so good for the people, ended up being the personification of a slave master.

I agree that we as a people should take care of one another, but relying on a government or an -ism to do it... is moronic at best.

Originally posted by BigFrigginAl
My first question is how does a post about socialism vs. communism vs. capitilism skew into what happened to native americans hundreds of years ago? It wasn't "evil americans" and capitilistic greed...it was english, french and spanish, if I'm not mistaken, trying to claim new land. It happened, it's done,

Actually, the Americans were in on it too, from just before the inception of the nation, when they were first recognized as a separate people if not a separate culture or polity. In 1763 the British crown issued a Proclamation limiting western expansion by the colonists, which was nearly universally ignored.

The confusion sets in when one person or another perceives colonialism to mean capitalism, or corporatism to mean capitalism, or communism to mean socialism. It's just the power of words vs. perceptions. We're not all on the same page regarding definitions, and likely never will be.

You're right, though, what's done is done,and there's no going back. We all have to move forward into the unknown, and that's at times a scary place to go. Ask the Americans - they did it, and faced those fears of the unknown, and prevailed against the fear. Had a good run, but now there's another unknown right around the corner. I've got to wonder if the current crop is made of the same stuff that their forbears were.

We'll see, won't we?

people in this day and age should have no reason to apologize. As to the statements it is still being done...every person has the ability to change their lot in life, because I have worked my a$$ off since the age of 16, I should feel sorry for those that do nothing (and I'm not generalizing the majority, just commenting on what was said).

I've got to agree with this. Regardless of what your great great great grandpappy may have done to mine, or vice versa, I don't even know you, and can't think of a single thing you've done against me. Why should I twist your arm now and make you cry "uncle"? It's not in my best interest or any one else's to attempt to right wrongs that are long gone and turned to dust. We have to forge ahead and deal with what's thrown at us NOW.

A good place to start, from a native American standpoint would be for the US to start living up to their treaty obligations which the People never cancelled. A one sided cancellation isn't cancellation, it's welshing on the deal.

Regardless, of that, we all have to work with what we have to work with, not what we'd like to have.

there is a similar structure to the berlin wall in israel and the USA Mexico border isnt exactly the same as the USA Canada border is it?

Originally posted by BigFrigginAl
I'm relatively new to posting, do not know how to quote remarks, so apologies in advance.

No worries.

Everyone has the opportunity to work hard (I am not talking about the handicapped, elderly, etc...I believe I mentioned that some social programs are needed). I was never given a "shot", I am where I am, and have what I have due to hard work. I totally understand the have nots, just because my opinion runs counter to yours, do not assume I have lived some easy existense, what did I do when times were tough, got a second job delivering pizzas, I did not expect someone to take care of me.

No, they don't. That's what I am trying to tell you. You have lived an easy existence in comparison to the situation of people living in the third world because you got a job at 16. Because you found work delivering pizzas. Those are opportunities that not everyone has.

Yes, but how does that mean I owe them? My taxes help pay the salaries of the road crews, My dollars spent on clothing, food or water go to those that created or supply said goods...those experiences were made possible because people worked, and were paid for a good or service.

But your money didn't go to them. Your money went to pay the people who profit off the workers labor.

Again, people have choices...there should be limits, these programs should be short term answers, not a lifestyle. The system itself creates a recipient class. If you are on welfare, or food stamps, should you be buying booze and smokes, IMO, NO, it should not be allowed. Mandatory drug tests if you are in these systems, YES...if you fail, you are out.

I agree that this shouldn't be a lifestyle. But when your welfare check is the equivalent to minimum wage why work?

My 17 year old tried to tell me there were no jobs...nothing, I've tried dad, there is just nothing out there...I took him out watched him get applications, helped him fill them out...in less than a week he had a job.

So, this job now pays rent, food, clothing, wife, children? Or is he still living with you while you support him?

Again, apologies for what will probably be a hard thread to read!

You're good. I eat, sleep, breathe internet. hehe

Originally posted by JonoEnglish
reply to post by BigTimeCheater

 

Oh yeah, if i were to refuse giving my moeny to the big corps I''d starve and sit in an unheated home.

Then from my perspective there is a flaw in your life plan that has allowed you to become dependent on others.

That is known in some circles as slavery. It's a matter of allowing someone else to control your individual destiny and means of life. I think that's a bad thing, whether you allow a government to do it or a corporation.

One master is as bad as the next.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by Rob37n
Why do Americans have such a great hatred of Socialism and Communism? .

- Because it's slavery to the state and I don't want to be a slave.
- Because productive people should benefit from their work and not have to give it away.
- Becaue Socialism and Communism produce lazy people who won't pull their fair load.

Socialism is not slavery. Americans are slaves more than any other nation I know of.

Imagine a system where one person doesnt do jack sh*t, the whole of his life. He just "owns" a company. He inherits. And he makes money because he owns it. He doesn't do anything usefull all of his life, he just spends. You dont seem to mind him being lazy, do you? In earlier history that was called feudalism. Today its called capitalism. Rich people dont own just the land, they own money, so its not the same thing.

So basicaly, its better to have people starve and die of freezing, homeless, than to have some lazy people? Or am I missing your point? You dont seem to get angry at the prospect of other people suffering, only at the prospect of other people being well of without working as much as you believe they should. That seems very sick to me. But Im probably brainwashed by communist propaganda..

Originally posted by FlyersFan
- Because, as history shows, it's doomed to fail.

Realy? Is Cuba failing? Is China failing? Is Sweden failing? Is Germany failing?
It seems to me you have "mixed the pots". It is the capital of capitalism, US of A, that is currently failing, big time. Explain that for me please.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
- Because less government means less intrusion into our private lives.
etc etc etc

Sure, but that is not even related to socialism or communism.
USA has an enormous government, doesn't it? So, I'd say this argument is realy missplaced.

Those that Administrate these 'isms' of conformity do not apply to it's standards but rather establish them for means of command and control for selfish ends at the detriment to the development and self expression of his brethren. Human resources have been grossly mismanaged and the result is obvious worldwide discontent. The people are only now realizing what slaves they have been designed to be of which I find unnatural by design as any being in creation will naturally resist servitude. If it is unnatural, it is not right. Logic 101 though should not need to be explained. Most have been deceived of themselves as to their very purpose, gifts, talents but rather have been repressed unto systems of 'command and control' for the benefit of 'none' in their Ends.

Anything that takes from the creative purpose of mankind is an impediment to the progress and defeats the 'purpose' of the creation itself and therefor that being will in time be regarded as what's termed an asshat rather than an asset to the collective cause of humanity. Folks are beginning to change course though some diffiicult choices, decisions will have to be made.

To achieve self sufficiency is the goal of mankind, for each man's gift is his very creation and each man's gifts, or realized talents acknowledged and 'realized' is for all his brethren to behold in unison and with a new understanding of 'the way it was' to be is the way it Is to seA. If a man is confounded with obligations unto another he has no time for personal development or realization as to who he/she Is. Most follow the will of another and their subsequent titles of which in time mean nothing more than 'nothing'. A beings 'expression' should be encouraged provided that one does no harm unto another and as water, allows one to complete their path and be who they were designed or potential'ed to be while giving what they have to give Of their own freewill.

Though I could be wrong, if it makes sense, it's likely Of it.
I understand what I understand and know what I know though one's brethren completes his circuit as a Ring of Life itself on the surface of the EArth with all to witness and all to benefit or suffer alike.
Truth knows know folly unto darkness, it Is.
When a being is as it Is to Be, the whole world benefits.
When a being is repressed unto itself, tragedy awaits to the detriment of all.

Karma Is All around you.
One can choose distress and find stress or choose love and find fulfillness.
Security is only necessary when one has something to hide.
What should one have to hide from himself, his neighbor, his creator?

One is seldom a mirror of oneself.
Hence all the makeup, masks, titles, capes of grandeour are but a peacock with the flair of another.
A peacock should spread it's own fan for all to witness and share tO share alike.

One can allow themselves to be divided and conquered or choose to see the brother in your neighbor.
DNA speaks volumes for one's familiality and promise for one's potentialities.
If used appropriately, you may soon encode yourself or self propagate, procreate much more.
The gift of intellect is a gift from the Creator to be used responsibly.
When gifts are not used responsibly, they are to be taken away one 'way' or another, often as a thief of the knight.

Le Creator does work in mysterious ways.
I suppose it's the creativity of it all that makes it all worthwhile.
To watch a being in creation, to be as that being in creation, I imagine, would be worth all the while.
A movie that never ends though seems to be approaching a higher purpose of order through discovery.

Freedom with Love nourishes the Soul and brightens one's 'halo aurora' so to say while empowering one to access higher truths and natural laws. When one increases their energy intake as a battery retaining a charge they become much more receptive/Aware to/of the -signals+ abound them. After all, the spArk of life began with energy, the end of life is the loss of that energy.

The Soul could be seen as a 'plasmic energy being' with an electromagnetic field/shield about it.
Some are much larger than others and some radiate intermittantly though everyone has their own 'karma signatures' so to say and this as well can be measured from above (infrared and other frequencies), by man and et alike.

This is the best I could explain it in words.
Modern testing equipment can measure this energy as it passes the body posthumously and it has 'weight' as well. This 'weight' has not been accurately described by the dimensions measured. One can only sense a fraction of the 'reality' about them.

Do unto others as you would have done unto you.
Never take from another that which the other is not freewilled to give.
Respect life, for you are quite fortunate to have it in the first place!
Folks have become estranged from nature itself by poor design though by design, just not a good one nor for a good purpose. Nature is the revelation of the Creator. The closer one can be in tune/synch with it, the closer one comes to it's ....... .

Hatred toward Socialism/Communism? You bet! It is all coded in American culture. Socialism and Communism represents values that are at opposite of the core values of American people.

From a cultural study points of view, American culture is an extreme form of individualism. In contrast, Socialism is a form of collectivism, in which the emphasis and preference is given to the collective entity of a society/community, rather than to the individuals. If we plot all the cultures in this world along the yardstick of individualism-collectivism, Anglo-American cultures represent the extreme end of individualism, with USA at the extreme of this extreme. Generally speaking, eastern cultures are clustered toward the collectivism side, while many European nations sit in the middle. At the end of the day, it is a question about whether to put "us" before "me", secure "ours" before "mine".

Because of the strong individualism in American culture, it is very difficult to reconcile it with Socialism and Communism. Culture is not about individual variations. So, please do not reply and say how you as an individual is an exception or not. Doesn't matter here.

In a short definition, culture means "shared values" of a group of people. It could be a village, a city, a province or a nation. In modern days, it could also be a business, a company or a corporation. With the shared value as its core, a culture manifest itself into outer layers, commonly visible as rituals, legends, heros, customs, habits, costumes, etc. Demoncracy is also a part of culture. To me, it is the political statement of some cultures. Different nations have different ways to realize their own form of democracy. American democracy is, therefore, by the Americans, for the Americans and to the Americans.

Almost everyone realizes that Anglo-American cultures are indvidualistic. It is already obvious at the culture's outter layers: The American Dream is about the success of an individual. Hollywood is all about a lone hero saving the world. The pilgrim traditions, the root of American culture, is about an individual trying to prove, through hardwork and simple life, that he/she is one of God's chosen people.

Besides Individualism vs Collectivism, American culture is also extreme in other cultural dimensions.

Masculinity vs Feminity, the dimension to measure assertiveness: American culture is at the very end of Masculinity. No question about it. Yankees are super assertive.

Universalism vs Particularism, the dimension about preference on rules and regulations: American culture is strongly universalistic. No need to mention how many regulations and laws Americans have institutionalized into their society. They have a penchant on rules.

Specificity vs Diffusion: Americans are ultra-specific. "If you can't measure it, you can't control it".

Achievement vs Ascription American culture is all about achievement. "Don't tell me who your father is, tell me what you have done!"

In my view, American culture lacks balance in many dimensions. It may not be a problem for a culture of its own. But it is a real problem for the world when Amercians try to project their unique culture onto other nations.

Originally posted by lewman
there is a similar structure to the berlin wall in israel and the USA Mexico border isnt exactly the same as the USA Canada border is it?

Yeah one was to keep the "East Germans" in [Berlin wall] the other to keep people out "Mexicans" [Mexican/American border]

The Canadian/US border is fine for the most part.

reply to post by SeventhSeal


That would be dictatorship.

Btw. if you realy want to understand the different kinds of organising a society, you should first learn the true history of the 20th century. Try and read or watch some stuff from John Pilger. You might be surprised that there were truly successfull and promising communist countries that were literaly murdered by your CIA. (hint: Sukarno, Suharto).

reply to post by badnickname


You're going to sit there and tell me that Yugoslavia is in the piss poor state it is in because of Western Capitalism and Democratic system and ignore the very real ancient fragmentation that took place that has been boiling under the surface for centuries? I'm sorry but Bosnia and Herzegovina, Croatia, Macedonia, Montenegro, Slovenia and Serbia are all your basket of worms. If it was such a wonderful place then why the hell did it fly apart and disintegrate in chaos?

Yeah ok. Blame all your ancient ethnic inbred hatred and the result thereof on the spread of Capitalism. That plays well for those who have an agenda but doesn't wash with many.

reply to post by AdAbsurdum


See...you do not even practice what you preach...here I am, in need (of vital info) (how to insert a quote), where is my handout??? (instructions on how to insert said quote) LOL

You said
No, they don't. That's what I am trying to tell you. You have lived an easy existence in comparison to the situation of people living in the third world because you got a job at 16. Because you found work delivering pizzas. Those are opportunities that not everyone has.

But they do, maybe not the same opportunities, but opportunities nonetheless, they just have to seek them out, and want them.

You said:
But your money didn't go to them. Your money went to pay the people who profit off the workers labor.

But it did...they worked to produce those goods and services, resulting in a paycheck...if I, and everyone else did not buy, then there would be no job, hence no paycheck. Of course someone profits...someone profits off my labor, do I begrudge that, no...if I did, I could look into starting my own chemical production facility and steal my existing customers.

You said:
I agree that this shouldn't be a lifestyle. But when your welfare check is the equivalent to minimum wage why work?

Why...I can only speak for me, because I would feel a sense of shame...if I can go to work and earn the amount given, that would be my choice. The problem, IMO, is that the system creates a recipient class...have another kid, get a bit more each month, continue...it's a horrible cycle.

You asked:
So, this job now pays rent, food, clothing, wife, children? Or is he still living with you while you support him?

This job pays car insurance, gas, activities, etc...I had a paper route at 13, job at 16 through HS...My hope is that it teaches him value, work ethic, etc...yes he lives with us, no on rent, but he will learn to understand real life.