WACO: The Murders At Mt Carmel

Big star and flag. Yes, let's don't forget Janet Reno who ordered the raids at Waco and Ruby ridge in the first place. There was no excuse for the slaughter of that many innocent women and children. Both were vulgar displays of power (props to Pantera) to show the populace what happens if you get out of line with the PTB.
No doubt Koresh was a criminal and probably insane though like the others in the compound did not deserve the death penalty for anything he had done.
I seriously thought we were headed for martial law at any time after those events and began preparing accordingly.
If it happened today would Americans behave differently and perhaps surround the Feds?
I doubt it,
That's the problem with America - we never seem to act together even when it is in our best interests to do so. I think the media and social conditioning have played up perfectly into their hands. That's why they went ahead with 9/11 and the economic collapse because they knew that we would not rise up en masse to stop any of it.
And so it will continue until we are all dead or slaves.
I prefer the former to the latter.

God save the Republic.

reply to post by soundguy

You should watch the video in the OP. It has all the evidence from BOTH sides in it. I am not defending David Koresh, I am defending his rights as an American Citizen. Yes, there were allegations that he slept with 14 year old girls with the parent's permission, which it was legal for 14 year old girls to get married with said permission from parents, but that is not what they went in there for, even if it was, he deserved a trial by his peers to prove his guilt on that subject or to prove his innocence, not the death penalty.

You said that they were stock piling weapons. That is not a crime in America under the second ammendment. If you would watch the video posted in the OP you would see that the reason he had a lot of weapons is because they were engaged in going to gun shows and buying said weapons and then reselling them for a profit to help with their finances. AGAIN, this wasn't against the law. In your argument then every gun dealer, gun enthusiast, or anyone that has over X-amount of guns are criminals. I know several people that have dozens of different types of assault rifles, shotguns, and handguns. Since they have all these weapons, then its okay for the government to come and kill them?

I believe you need to get your facts straight. The ATF came there and knocked on the door. Koresh answered it and then tried to shut it at which point the ATF started firing and at the same time other ATF agents were climbing up on the roof and shooting through a window, not knowing who they might be shooting.

I'm not going to go any farther with this argument with you, because all the evidence is in those 14 videos entitled WACO: RULES OF ENGAGEMENT. Watch it, and if you have and you still believe what you stated in your post, then you are either;

1. Blind and deaf
2. Working for the government
3. a disinfo agent
4. Do not believe in the Constitution

edit to add: I see that you were in the military from your other posts. I want to thank you for your service, but Waco was wrong and the facts are the facts. Your fearless leaders were wrong and they lied....

Wow, ya know I was only 13 when this all came to play. Then I was really too young and too naive to know what was REALLY going on here. The only thing I DID know was that those women and children, the innocents, didn't deserve to die by the hands of whoever was responsible. Just the thought of all those children dying saddened me at my young age for a very, very long time. Since then I have only thought on this a few times. Never did I imagine that the Gov't was suspect in this case, of course I didn't have all the facts and evidence either. Thank you OP for bringing this to light for me. Just another in the long list of reasons for me to distrust those who are suppose to be there to protect us and our rights. I will definitely watch this documentary in it's entirety.

You can be murder because you are guilty until prov-en innocence.
When America was a great nation;
We were innocence until prov-en guilty.
Those that did the murdering will stand before God and be judged.

reply to post by 19rn50

The fact that people are guilty until proven innocent was clearly revealed that day at Waco. The ATF, FBI, and the National Guard were the judge , jury and executioners of 74 people that they found guilty without trial. I don't know how they can sleep at night.

These people weren't hurting anyone. There were allegations of sexual abuse by Koresh, but he hadn't been found guilty of anything. None of the other 73 men women and children were guilty of anything. The American government slaughtered these people and should be held responsible for their deaths.

The survivors were prosecuted and sent to prison when the government should have given them compensation for what they did. The American Government is nothing but thugs and murderers that have a license to kill...

reply to post by kennylee


You said the truth, I agree with you a 100%.
When children get hurt or murdered, I think of this verse!
Mark 9:42
Will be no sleep for them murderers.

does anyone know if the names of the officers, ATF, FBI agents that were involved with Waco where listed or are they being consealed for protection? It would be interesting to see
where these people are working now...

Now, now folks. We all know that the Left is the Party of Peace and Non-Violence.

I think Koresh shares equal blame. This was a meeting of an ultimate Right Wingnut and a Left Wingnut head on. The innocent always pay when the radicals play.

What good can you say about a guy who changes his name, declares himself THE Messiah and tries to impregnate all the girls without regard to their age?

There was nothing right about this on either side.

Do you suppose it's possible to kill a God? Seems it was in this case.

Reno scares the heck out of me. Wonder what she is up to these day's? What was Clinton thinking

reply to post by kennylee


Your not defending Koresh or I mean Vernon Wayne Howell are you? There were two sides to this story, not one. Neither side was right and no adult was innocent. Both sides were completely out of control.

reply to post by Blaine91555


No, not defending Koresh, just his right under the Constitution for a fair trial. I am DEFENDING all the other innocent men women and CHILDREN that the government decided to kill and then cover up their crime before anyone could investigate the scene. Watch the video series that is posted in the OP. It holds all the evidence and both sides to the story........The video confirmed my belief that the people at Mt. Carmel were murdered by the ATF, FBI, National Guard and the Army, and not by Koresh......

The planed super highway was originally planned to go straight through the Waco compound.

Later the plan was revised and the route moved, so the maps found on the net no longer show this.

I spoke with the father of one of the ATF members at great length about the incident.
But not in the way one might think. They were emotionally destroyed by being a part of all this, and I found myself providing therapy.

Since then I have noticed an increase in wildfires that seem to conveniently burn out land owners who wont sell to the government or developers.

reply to post by davidgrouchy


I never knew about the proposed highway. Do you think that played a role in the way that the whole thing went down? Is there anywhere that one could find out about this highway proposal? It would be really interesting to me.

Your last comment leads me to believe that you think they burned the compound because they wanted the land for the highway? And I guess they revised the highway plan after the Waco murders?

Sorry for all the questions, but you have my mind running on full speed now. I have revisited Waco since it happened, as far as, going back to the story to see if there was something I missed. This incident burned into my soul. It's just something I never got over. I don't know how anyone can ever forget it......or not realize what the government ordered on that last day....

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/11380f87724f.jpg[/atsimg]

The NAFTA super highway has been planed since before NAFTA was passed.
Maps of it are all over the net, but (and this is a huge but) they have all been changed
to reflect the new plan that no longer goes straight through the Waco compound property.

Originally posted by kennylee
Your last comment leads me to believe that you think they burned the compound because they wanted the land for the highway? And I guess they revised the highway plan after the Waco murders?

I beleive Janet Reno's testimony that the fire troubles her sleep to this day.
I don't think it was intentional or planned. The fire that is.
At least not at a high federal level.

But the emotional damage to
the men involved was
was real.

Since then a lot of suspiciously well placed wild fires have lead me to theorize that
this method causes no soldiers to lose sleep or feel personal responsiblity.

...massive tragedy / travesty?... yep... was koresh innocent?... no - he was scum...

...he incessantly preached to his victims that it was their destiny to "go out in a blaze of glory"... have you ever read his manifesto?... you should... he was a psychopath, no doubt about it... in his many sermons, he openly admitted to taking other men's wives as his own, as well as underaged girls - even justified it via his version of biblical scriptures...

...during the seige, koresh thought he was in control of the whole show and he enjoyed that immensely... he might have expected to get out of "it" alive and be perceived as a hero, even if he sacrificed his congregation... that wouldnt surprise me a bit...

...whatever the real reasons were for what finally happened on 04.19.93, koresh screwed himself and took a lot of folks with him...

...btw - nothing that happened at mt carmel justifies the okc bombing - absolutely nothing... only cretins who worship the turner diaries would believe the contrary...

reply to post by Wyn Hawks


Yea, you're right, people should just accept the fact the government is going to murder innocent people and not seek retribution once in a while.

Seriously?

reply to post by soundguy


Good to see a bit of balance to this thread. I can understand the strong emotion a tragedy like this causes. I have read reports from officers who were involved in this and they suffer daily from what happened. It was a tragedy, pure and simple. Could it have been avoided? Yes, most certainly. Karesh could've spoken to the ATS calmly like a civilised person in the first instance. The law enforcement units involved could've handled the storming of the place differently - but that is easier said than done. Also, according to what I have read one of the reasons they went in was because they feared that Karesh was killing those inside or convincing them to commit suicide and they wanted to prevent that from happening. In hindsight they might reconsider their actions, but what would you have done if you were them?

Exactly what I've thought for the last ten years.

reply to post by kennylee

I totally agree that the Law enforcement ultra over reacted on this fateful day! Innocents died! And that is unforgivable! However, David Koresh was a very sick individual who needed therapy bad! His controlling influence led to the deaths of those innocents... men,women and children! He was a control freak, whose ego was such, that it mattered little to him if people lived or died during this fiasco of a stand off! If you want to look for an anti-christ, then he's a pretty good candidate! At the end of the day, it's tragic what happened! The police state, resorted to type and stormed in! They're not renown for being imaginative! Koresh brought the whole house of cards down around him... and it all went off, in retrospect, not with a bang... with a whimper!... Very Sad!

I had not watched Rules of Engagement before. WOW! I knew the gov murdered those Branch Davidians but there was a great deal of details I was not aware of.

How the FBI/ATF/Janet Reno/ etc, got off scott- free but were perversely honored as "Law Enforcement Heroes" is beyond reason. Even their own people testified it was murder yet they all walked away free.

As for the Congressional windbags who sanctioned the killings, namely our current VP Joe Biden as well as Chuck Shumer it is obvious they have been rewarded for their help in covering up what really went down.

I give up on our government, it's run by murderers, liars and thieves.
We are the great whore Babylon.
If there is a God he will have to soon put America in it's place and it won't be pretty.

Everyone needs to spend the time watching Waco - Rules of Engagement!