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Revising the "Cogito" of Descartes

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posted on Nov, 30 2010 @ 03:29 AM
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Originally posted by Vicky32 Solipsism is the ultimate in selfishness/self-centredness. I agree with whoever said it's a product of individualism. Less individualistic cultures simply laugh at the solipsist, as at a 3 year old who thinks the world revolves around him!


But there is a specific reason why solipsism is such a seductive argument: It originates in the 'movement' of self-reflection which is the very origin of the "self"; which, then, is maintained by the 'thinker' which only postulates itself into existence. In other words, solipsism is the manifestation in words of a fundamental mechanism of consciousness.


Vicky AFAIK Descartes went further, adding that as he knew he wasn't God, and knew God doesn't lie, that the world and other people also exist.


But this is merely another thought, which is not as certain as the postulation of the 'thinker' itself.

In other words, it is a specific attempt to deny the fact that the 'thinker' 'thinks' itself into existence and is self-created.

Even worse, however, it turns the feminine perspective completely upside down by placing the existence of thought before the existence of reality.

If you try to discuss the cogito with a group of men, they will likely consider the discussion to be important in one way or another.

Try discussing this with a group of women, however, and the much more likely response is "Huh??? This is supposed to actually mean something or to be important? Are you serious?"

In other words, it is quite obvious to the feminine perspective that the statement should have been "I am, therefore, I think" rather than the reverse.

Women are much more grounded in reality; whereas men are grounded more in thought.

Mi cha el



posted on Nov, 30 2010 @ 10:02 PM
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Originally posted by Michael Cecil

Originally posted by Vicky32 Solipsism is the ultimate in selfishness/self-centredness. I agree with whoever said it's a product of individualism. Less individualistic cultures simply laugh at the solipsist, as at a 3 year old who thinks the world revolves around him!



Originally posted by Michael CecilBut there is a specific reason why solipsism is such a seductive argument: It originates in the 'movement' of self-reflection which is the very origin of the "self"; which, then, is maintained by the 'thinker' which only postulates itself into existence. In other words, solipsism is the manifestation in words of a fundamental mechanism of consciousness.

I am reasonably sure that my experience is different from what you say... inasmuch as from my earliest memories, I was a part of the family, and thought of myself in relation to them (parents, sister, brother) and to an extent still do. The 'self' and the 'thinker' co-exist, and always have done (assuming that I really get what you'tre saying!)


Vicky AFAIK Descartes went further, adding that as he knew he wasn't God, and knew God doesn't lie, that the world and other people also exist.




Originally posted by Michael CecilIf you try to discuss the cogito with a group of men, they will likely consider the discussion to be important in one way or another.

From my experience, that's true! I first heard of the concept of solipsism from my brother - I was probably 17 which means my brother must have been around 9 years old - he'd learned of the idea from his (male) school-teacher. I laughed it to scorn! (As did my brother when he thought about it some more.)


Originally posted by Michael Cecil[/iTry discussing this with a group of women, however, and the much more likely response is "Huh??? This is supposed to actually mean something or to be important? Are you serious?"

In other words, it is quite obvious to the feminine perspective that the statement should have been "I am, therefore, I think" rather than the reverse.

Women are much more grounded in reality; whereas men are grounded more in thought.

Mi cha el

By and large, having given it some thought, I believe you're right, speaking as a woman!
I don't actually go a bomb on philosophy or psychology despite having studied the latter (Ed. Psych, not general!)
Vicky



posted on Dec, 1 2010 @ 01:13 AM
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"He who thinks he knows knows not and he who knows that he knows not, knows."
~ Confucius



posted on Dec, 1 2010 @ 06:12 AM
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Originally posted by NewAgeMan "He who thinks he knows knows not and he who knows that he knows not, knows."~ Confucius


Of course. Of course.

And "yes" and "no".

You have to be careful not to interpret this saying from the frame of reference of the consciousness of the 'thinker' itself.

One thing to be understood from this statement is that knowledge is not a function of 'thinking'; but, rather, perception or experience.

But the second thing to be understood is that there is no "who" who 'knows'. In other words 'knowing that he knows not' does not have to do with 'not knowing'; it has to do with the fact that there is no "who" who 'knows'.

There is only the knowledge itself.

A statement which, almost invariably, infuriates the 'thinker' who is only concerned about the 'knowledge' which can be possessed by the 'thinker' itself; simply disregarding all other knowledge as not knowledge at all.

Mi cha el



posted on Dec, 2 2010 @ 10:11 AM
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I believe solipsism is small mind and on the path to big mind. The solipsist only error is thinking that the self that is dreaming this world is contained within the body/mind of the actor in the play. If a solipsist realizes that he is not in his body/mind and instead is the dreamer dreaming everything it is no longer destructive. I use the analogy of a lucid dream because I am limited with the concepts that I know.

As far as Descartes, if he had been a little more skeptical, he would have found that he is actually witnessing the thinker.



posted on Jul, 15 2020 @ 08:55 PM
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originally posted by: TheDeader
Decartes came to it's conclusion by doing the 'tabula rasa' method. He wanted to find a absolut truth / a thing of which he oculd be 100% sure.

He started by removing all the stuff from his list of which one could be 'fooled'. The perception we get through senses is one of those things. Then he moves on to dreams et cetera.

He finally comes down to his 'cogito', by concluding that the fact that he doubted something is his certain proof that he, for that moment of doubting, existed. So actualy his cognito is : "I doubt, therefore i am" , which he wrote down before coming to the beautifyied expression "I think, therefore i am". (Beeing and thinking as an unseparatable relationship)

Sure are there a lot of different categories of thoughts. But that didn't interesst Decartes nor was it important for his work.
A thought, in the sense he used it, is a 'mecanism' to connect different perceptions with each other, wherever the perceptions come from. With your thoughts you then can turn something in to knowledge (a posteriori or a priori knowledge)

Sry for my english, hope you get it. Most philosophical stuff i read is in french or german :/


Can see that this poster no longer logs-in: but just wanted to say that this short and elegant description, is very nice to read, and ponder.
Am thankful.

Kind of sad that when ATS goes dark: all of this beautiful wisdom will just go: poof !



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