What is the big problem people have with secularism?

Before we start off, I'll give a rough definition of secularism:
"The view that all religious considerations should be excluded from public (ie governmental) affairs"

Basically it's an indifference of government towards religious matters. People are allowed to worship their own religions freely (unless there is a severe violation of civil law) and the government remains neutral to religious concerns.

No school led prayers in public school, but the students can pray on their own.
No cross on the wall of the court house, but also no other religious symbols.
No giant Menorah on the steps of Congress during Hanukkah.

etc.

It's a system where we're all free to practice our religion or non-religion. Everyone gets their bit.

What's so wrong with that?

reply to post by madnessinmysoul


I think its so MORALS cant become LAWS. Just because someone is a jerk dosent mean he should be fined or go to jail.

MOTF!

reply to post by MessOnTheFED!


Religions speak on far more matters than simply the moral. They also make stark reality claims and various claims on child rearing and public policy (depending on the religion and sect of that religion), so it's more than just keeping out a single set of morals.

reply to post by madnessinmysoul


Well then idk bro. i dont really subscribe to any religion so it would be foolish for me to speculate any further.

MOTF!

People like us dont have a problem with Secularism. America is already secular. We have a problem with removing all references and reminders of higher/spritual realities such as "In God we Trust" on the Dollar-Bill and "Creator" in the Declaration of Independence. We believe such spiritual references to be a moral, ethical and psychological boost and the removal of such to be disrespectful of the countries roots, origins, foundation. Despite references now and then, this country is completely secular and rightly so. Making references to Religion now and then is not a problem.

It is rather difficult to omit religious affiliation from a government composed of human beings (much less democratic republics like our own). Everyone has a religious affiliation - or lack thereof. It is only natural to presume that one's sense of ethics will be influenced by the teachings of their religion (among other things).

Example: abortion. According to the principles of conservatism - the government should stay out of it and leave it as an issue to each individual and their doctor. However, many conservatives (who also tend to affiliate with religious conservative values) want to get the government involved in the issue because they feel it is wrong.

In that respect, a truly secular government cannot exist - or would be so difficult to maintain as to be impractical.

At the very least, the problem springs from the desire to feel your representatives represent your interests. If you affiliate strongly with a religion - how can you feel adequately represented by someone with no religious ties? It may not be entirely logical and may be kind of silly - but it's how a number of people think (and not just with regards to religion - but with many other affiliations, as well)

reply to post by madnessinmysoul


Holy crap! I take it you are an Atheist and for the first time I have common ground with you.
I absolutly agree that religion should be something that is practiced with in the home and left out of government "everything" s long as it is consistent.

I dont see a problem with letting people worship so long as they dont invoke God, gods, godesses and or mother earth in something that is purely business.

If a person doesnt want their children being taught in public school, take them out, if you want to mention the ten commandments do it at home or in church, or if your feeling cocky, out on a corner somewhere. Just dont harass people with it.

Yay for Secularism..!


[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/ae3fe6d48d2f.jpg[/atsimg]

reply to post by Skyfloating

We believe such spiritual references to be a moral, ethical and psychological boost and the removal of such to be disrespectful of the countries roots, origins, foundation.

In God We Trust has only been on paper money since 1954 and has absolutely nothing to do with our founding. It was placed there only to set us apart from the "godless" Communists during the Cold War. I agree though to the superstitious it offers a psychological boost to see the government approve of their beliefs. I imagine the Nazis got a similar boost from seeing Gott Mit Uns on their belt buckles.

Also, America has no affiliation with any religions and especially not with the God of Christianity, the Constitution doesn't mention a God, and yes that unaffiliated status goes all the way back to our second President and the Treaty of Tripoli...

I'd hate to think that we would be dumb enough to violate the First Amendment and allow the wall between separation of Church and State to fall simply for the sake of nostalgia over the fact that our founders believed in a God.

reply to post by madnessinmysoul


There have been a number of recent attacks on secularist thinking most notably by the Pope who tried to blame secular atheists for things like the holocaust. I don't get it either and all I can really think is that its people afraid we're going to steal their beliefs away. It could also be fear of progress or even merely the desire to see their religion win over everyone else's. It is disheartening to say the least that such attitudes exist... A humorous case in point.



In this movie a big city atheist secularist is painted as the bad guy for trying to put up a sign that says Seasons Greetings and trying to get the Nativity scene taken down.

reply to post by Skyfloating

Originally posted by Skyfloating
People like us dont have a problem with Secularism. America is already secular. We have a problem with removing all references and reminders of higher/spritual realities such as "In God we Trust" on the Dollar-Bill

Which was first added to currency in 1864 on the now long defunct "2 cent" coin.
Then in 1866-1883 on a nickel, quarter, half dollar, silver and gold dollars

It wasn't even our official national motto until an Act of Congress in 1956!

Source

and "Creator" in the Declaration of Independence.

Well, that's not a legal issue as this is not a governing document.

And it isn't even a specific references to religion in that case. It comes from the position of 'natural rights' found in the political philosophy in John Locke that so much of our government was founded upon. The important thing in that statement isn't the creator, it's that individuals have inalienable rights.

We believe such spiritual references to be a moral, ethical and psychological boost and the removal of such to be disrespectful of the countries roots, origins, foundation.

How does the affirmation of a deity on currency make a moral or ethical statement?
How does anything relating to the use of a deity through government make a moral or ethical statement?

How is it a psychological help to polytheists, monotheists who use a different name for their deity, atheists, agnostics, Buddhists, the indifferent, Hindus, etc?

Despite references now and then, this country is completely secular and rightly so. Making references to Religion now and then is not a problem.

It is a problem if it's an endorsement of religion using public funds and on publicly circulated currency.

In God We Trust does not belong on our money. It replaced E Pluribus Unum - which Latin for "out of many, one." (yes I know it still appears on the seal in the banner the eagle holds in its beak - - you can even read it if you have a magnifying glass)

E Pluribus Unum refers to the fact that the United States was formed as a cohesive single nation as the result of the thirteen smaller colonies joining together.

But it worked - - - we are now a divided nation. Did you know "In God We Trust" is the official national motto of the United States?

-----------------------------------------------

I am 100% - all the way - NO GOD in government.

so why do they atheists care what other people think?

why do they come out in public and condemn someone elses belief

like you said if religion should be a private matter then why make a thread and push your thoughts on to others.


in this country we all have the freedom to think what we all want but what noone in this country has the right to tell other people WHAT to think.


meh

reply to post by neo96

so why do they atheists care what other people think?

Hmm... Could it be because of stuff like this:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/350fdf76a1ed.jpg[/atsimg]

or how about this:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/9ceca51bbb13.jpg[/atsimg]

But yeah, you're right, we should just mind our business and allow religion to breed ignorance and intolerance and while we're at it let's allow it to crawl in bed with government and REALLY screw everything up

Those photos above are just some of what religious fundamentalism can do WITHOUT having a place in our government.

Just how secular is secular, though?

Should children in public school be allowed to pray?

Should children in public schools be taught about the histories of the various religions that they will encounter in life?

Should public officials be allowed to swear-in over an appropriate religious book/text? Should we open congressional sessions with a prayer?

It's one thing to not make any laws regarding religion and to keep the government out of personal, business, and religious affairs... but are things like the above really a problem?

How far should secularism extend?

Originally posted by neo96


so why do they atheists care what other people think?

why do they come out in public and condemn someone elses belief

like you said if religion should be a private matter then why make a thread and push your thoughts on to others.


in this country we all have the freedom to think what we all want but what noone in this country has the right to tell other people WHAT to think.


meh

Because the God believers don't stay home and worship privately.

Can I just mention the Mormons and the millions of dollars they've donated to deny Equal Rights of a minority group?

And since I am 64 - - I know all about the stranglehold of Christians in our schools - governments - etc.

I speak up because it affects me when God is allowed in government.

reply to post by neo96


why do they come out in public and condemn someone elses belief





WTF are you talking about..? Religious views have been shoved down the throats of people far longer than sensible people condemning it have...


Reap what you sow champ...

Originally posted by Aim64C
Just how secular is secular, though?

Should children in public school be allowed to pray?

Should children in public schools be taught about the histories of the various religions that they will encounter in life?

Should public officials be allowed to swear-in over an appropriate religious book/text? Should we open congressional sessions with a prayer?

It's one thing to not make any laws regarding religion and to keep the government out of personal, business, and religious affairs... but are things like the above really a problem?

How far should secularism extend?

Of course children can pray privately in school. Why shouldn't they.

Why should religion(s) be taught in public school? If you're talking elective in college or maybe even high school - - where all religions are talked about - - not a problem.

Is religion in government really a problem? YES!!!!!!

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul


How is it a psychological help to polytheists, monotheists who use a different name for their deity, atheists, agnostics, Buddhists, the indifferent, Hindus, etc?

Im more of a Buddhist/Agnostic but I still appreciate the reference to some higher reality. There is only a special group that has an issue with it...

One problem I have with secularism is that IMO and with all due respect, people on the Left (in general) tend to overlook every other religion except Christianity. They seem to primarily have a problem with Christianity, and the push to get it out of public/government has also to a degree removed it from private life as well. So, now, even working at a private company, you can't have nativity scenes, you can't have Christmas trees, or even send a card that says "Merry Christmas" in fear of offending someone. Instead, you now have to be politically correct and send a card that says "Happy Holidays". In other words, the push to get Christianity out of all public/government life has succeeded so much, that to a degree, it has also been yanked out of private life as well. Not to mention that at the same time, we are forced to endure the hypocrisy of these same secularists who don't seem to have a problem with Hanuka, Ramadan, and Kwaanzaa. Want to display a Menorah? No problem! Want to celebrate Ramadan and/or Kwaanzaa? Go for it! Wanna celebrate Christmas? Nope, sorry - Christianity might offend someone! What's next, should we remove "In God We Trust" on our money? Should we remove "Under God" from the Pledge of Allegiance?

From someone who isn't very religious, the push to get Christianity out of America is somewhat offensive to me because I believe that the United States was founded primarily by people who were Christians of one denomination or another. It's the history of who we are, so deal with it! Our Founders were primarily devout Christians with Christian morals and principles who recognized the need to set up a government where a European-style theocracy (state-sponsored religion) could not take hold, so that citizens could never be subjected to any form of state-sponsored religious persecution. Many of our Founders came to America to escape religious persecution from their respective theocratic governments in Europe. They recognized that man has certain unalienable rights bestowed upon us by our "Creator" - they are Natural Rights, they are God-given rights - such as the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. This is the foundation of what America is all about. It is what American Exceptionalism is all about, in that it is incredibly exceptional that our Founders set up a form of government where its citizens are able to worship the religion of their choice without any fear of persecution or any fear of the republic transforming into a monarchy or theocracy, and whereby government is based on the freedom and liberty of its citizens - that is truly exceptional! Historically speaking, you just don't see people founding countries based on certain unalienable rights that are endowed by their Creator. Historically speaking, you see mainly forms of governments where people are ruled over and have few rights - you see tyrannical governments, monarchies, religious theocracies, etc. America is exceptional, and our Founders believing that our "Creator" gave us these rights is why you and I are free today.

If you don't believe that our rights are God-given rights, then the only alternative is that you believe that our rights can only come from whatever rights man decides to give us - and that is tyranny, not freedom.

reply to post by Annee


the god killers dont stay at home either

can i just mention the millions of dollars donated to anti religious groups

there is no stanglehold of christianity in our schools nor our government name me one priest in a public school name me one preist in government or (oops wait the good reverands al asharpton and jessie jackson both democrats guess thats ok in positions to sway poliitcal opinion)

funny tho i cant for the life of me remember any religious right wingers in congress that have the "reverend" title

hmmm

every single day religion is being destroy save one-islam.


i wish the majority of people would respect a christians right to worship as they see fit instead of condemn them every day like they give islam a free pass.


people wake up in a godless society that you all just seem to want ends up being socialist and communist.