Alex Jones fans please explain the Left and right paradigm PLEASE!

I have my B.A in psychology and am currently in a graduate program for political science. I have been talking to a lot of Alex Jones fans online and they keep insisting that there is no differences between the left and the right. I reply with numerous (pro-life,pro-choice, big gov, small gov, social programs, free market, gov overseeing free market, gun rights, homosexual rights etc) I pretty much name as many differences between the two that I can and they still deny it. I don't believe they are trolling I believe somehow Alex Jones has really convinced them that there is no difference between the left and the right.

I know that there are many psychological reasons people believe in conspiracy theories as well as many reasons people won't leave them. But how can some people be so tricked into thinking that there is no difference between the left and right. It is okay to disagree/not like one or the other, but to say that there is no difference just seems outrageous to me.

Does anyone agree that there is no difference or can someone explain to me why they believe this?

Thanks!

I think that most people that are stating there is no left/right difference are talking about those that are in charge, those that have been elected and have been in office for a long time.

Many people feel that these elected officials are actually on the side of a secret cabal shadow government of a mammoth size and scope that somehow manages to stay completely secret and out of the wider public eye.

When in reality, there are liberals, there are conservatives, there are people all across the political spectrum and the people that are elected have their own opinions and aren't robots.

reply to post by whatukno


Interesting; I wonder why the sudden rise in these conspiracy believers? The economy, non peer reviewed works, youtube etc?

Still they insist there is no difference! I do not understand when they say there is a flat out no difference between the left and right.

Yes, they probably are talking about politicians. Do they forget that we are the politicians? That politicians started out like regular people?

Do they really think there is no difference between congressman Gutierrez & congresswoman Bachman???

They both are polar opposites; they both work for the interest of the voters on their side of the political spectrum.

How can they say the D.R.E.A.M act is made by some secret shadow government?

What will it take for this people to not believe in these outlandish conspiracies?

Many of them are PCT (paranoid conspiracy theorist) perhaps that is the problem.

Movies like Zeitgeist and The Obama Deception make people feel "powerless" in my opinion, it is bad for society and suggesting people avoid politics and voting.

Crazy is the age we are living in.

The age of conspiracies... haha.

Personally I find the psychology of conspiracy denial just as interesting as that of the OTT 'PCT' as you call them (us?).

Regarding the left right paradigm..

IMO you're partly right partly wrong. Yes there are obvious differences between the left and right but in many situations these differences seem very superficial.

Not sure if its worth commenting further tbh, you seem like the sort who will over simplify this complicated issue and you already have you mind set up about conspiracy theories so whats the point. Have fun working in politics!

OK this is the straight skinny of it basically the left and right are the same for one sole reason look at it this way lets say the left is in office one term and passes legislation A you would think the next term the right would pass Legislation B because they'd be opposing parties but they DON'T they vote for the same legislation as the previous administration they both have the SAME agenda follow the money and you will see what i am talking about someone as smart as you should clearly see this. and forget about pro life pro choice and all that other stuff that skews your view from the real legislation they share and this legislation is focused on us the people, AGENDA 21, CODEX ALIMENTARIUS, REX 84 FEMA DEATH CAMPS! i dare you to have the balls to research this!

Originally posted by March of the Fire Ants
Personally I find the psychology of conspiracy denial just as interesting as that of the OTT 'PCT' as you call them (us?).

Regarding the left right paradigm..

IMO you're partly right partly wrong. Yes there are obvious differences between the left and right but in many situations these differences seem very superficial.

Not sure if its worth commenting further tbh, you seem like the sort who will over simplify this complicated issue and you already have you mind set up about conspiracy theories so whats the point. Have fun working in politics!

What do you mean "seem superficial". Please tell me how there is no differences between congressman Gutierrez and congresswoman Bachman?

Complicated issue of what?

No, there are certain conspiracy theories like'; " ancient aliens", "an afterlife", "creative visualization" and "suppressed free energy".

I used to believe in NWO myself for about a year actually, watched all the moves, posted on blogs etc until I really started researching it from an unbiased viewpoint.



PCT (paranoid conspiracy theorist): Conspiracy theorist who are so concerned and emotionally attached to their conspiracy theory that they develop paranoia from it.

There are many psychological reasons why people believe in conspiracy theories. Many of them have to do with self fulfillment and the idea that you know something before everyone else will. As well as many other reasons, I encourage you to research this yourself.

It is also hard to "leave the conspiracy/addiction". As it was for myself. I believed in the 9/11 conspiracy less than a week after it happened (coast to coast am). I spent literally years researching it and believing it. I invested a great deal of time into it and became emotionally attached. I would deny facts that contradicted me calling it "disinformation" or someone who "hasn't done their research". I also believed in the NWO for a good period of time.

It is VERY difficult to leave a conspiracy theory behind. I can assure you that you will feel GREAT once you do, it is very hard to do because of the sometimes 1000s of hours one has invested into.

Please attempt to debunk what you believe to be true.

Originally posted by DivineTeacher
OK this is the straight skinny of it basically the left and right are the same for one sole reason look at it this way lets say the left is in office one term and passes legislation A you would think the next term the right would pass Legislation B because they'd be opposing parties but they DON'T they vote for the same legislation as the previous administration they both have the SAME agenda follow the money and you will see what i am talking about someone as smart as you should clearly see this. and forget about pro life pro choice and all that other stuff that skews your view from the real legislation they share and this legislation is focused on us the people, AGENDA 21, CODEX ALIMENTARIUS, REX 84 FEMA DEATH CAMPS! i dare you to have the balls to research this!

edit on 10/8/2010 by DivineTeacher because: Punctuation

Healthcare just got passed. Who are your favorite congressmen and congresswoman, who are some senators that you like?

They don't have the same agenda what so ever. I don't think you really have looked into the views of the congress and senate.

I have read all those in the past when I used to believe in the NWO, 9/11 conspiracy theory and all that.

You are misinterpreting them and the FEMA death camps were debunked on the mainstream media.

Please explain to me how congressmen Weiner is working for some secret shadow government? How is Senator Franken and congressman Gutierrez working against the people?

How is the D.R.E.A.M act something that is made by "secret billionaires"?

Maybe you're just a little butthurt that you got deceived by the wrong things.

Originally posted by Whine Flu
Maybe you're just a little butthurt that you got deceived by the wrong things.

What makes you come to this conclusion? "Deceived by the wrong things"; this is an interesting statement. What makes you come to this conclusion of my beliefs?

reply to post by Ignorance_Defier


Health care? you mean that debacle of a bill thats raising my sisters premiums to height ive NEVER seen before? that one? the very same one that has death panels in it? HOW could you possible misinterpret agenda 21 wanting to bring down population to 500 mil? and you are the biggest guppy of them all giving any credence to mainstream media that employs tactics like subliminal hand gestures and anyone credible they get on they misdirect and slip in associations of evil organizations or someone with an extremist view so now your connected with them. Haven't read the DREAM act really but on the note of illegals ive seen on record illegal aliens admitting the government told them if you vote against the people on laws such as gun rights they would be allowed full citizenship

Originally posted by Ignorance_Defier

Originally posted by Whine Flu
Maybe you're just a little butthurt that you got deceived by the wrong things.

What makes you come to this conclusion? "Deceived by the wrong things"; this is an interesting statement. What makes you come to this conclusion of my beliefs?

No reason, I just like making witty posts.

reply to post by Ignorance_Defier


It's very interesting point you make, Ignorance_Defier, and one I'll try to contribute to whilst trying to remain as close on topic as I possibly can. I only speak from experience and not from academic point of view, specifically concerning psychology and other related fields, so please bear with me.

The PCT (Paranoid Conspiracy Theorist) issue is very intriguing because I find it exceptionally difficult to rationalise with a person who essentially has a pre-determined thought pattern about any given subject. I also subscribe to the fact that a typical PCT shares very, very similar symptomatic (for search of a better word) of your more classic mental illnesses such as Paranoid Schizophrenia as this link might give a better insight towards.

I just wanted to follow your initial mention of PCT's in relation with what my own beliefs and thoughts are on the left and right issue. With Alex Jones, it is a very difficult one because I used to take value from what he used to preach, but after several years of what has been a wonderful personal development in terms of my maturity and having the great opportunity to work with some very interesting people from varying back-grounds, I'm slowly inclined to believe that the content Alex so passionately (and admirably) ralieghs is often quite far off the mark, particularly in the UK at least.

If we're considering political orientation then I genuinely do believe in left to right and everything else in the middle. A simple personality test can reveal certain attributes person that might be in common with a specific behavioural type, for example. It is relatively similar with political orientation to. Factor in the education, religion, social background and you have a wealth of combinations. Having experience of knowing and working with both a politician and a magistrate, I can be absolutely certain that there most definitelt is a spectrum. I've also learned that not everyone in politics or positions of power (civil service - UK) has some draconian agenda, though, people like Alex Jones might not see it that way.

Though, it should be noted that my thoughts are neither here or there with the NWOism, I think it's a very plausible 'movement' if you will, but despite the subjective evidence that has been brought to this site offering very reliable evidence to suggest existence of such movements, I also think it's a little more simple than what people make out. Senior Civil Servants in the UK, for example, are jokingly referred to as the real ''power'' in UK, government, and to a large extent, that is very precisely true.

It is also no secret that Britain, as it was many years ago, was rumoured and joked upon because Margaret Thatcher was once asked: ''Is running the country anything like the programme 'Yes, Prime Minister'? to which she replied: ''You know, it's not far off at all''.

At this moment in time, I simply don't subscribe to the level of influence that supposed shadow governments have upon politics and more specifically how governments are run, I do believe it exists in some way, shape or form and indeed it is very possible that elitist movements do have some influence, to some extent.

I think, though, with what Alex Jones pushes, one is almost inclined to feel defeated in almost everyway possible, to feel as though there is little or no hope for the average person out there to simply enjoy life. In my opinion it's not a positive thing to absorb his content without first experiencing these people, positions and situations yourself and making your own mind up. I'm not for one moment suggesting that his content is not true, I'm merely making note that the extent of which he claims simply doesn't exist, not in my experience here in the UK. I could well be wrong, though, I'm certainly open minded to correction.

I hope I haven't swayed completely off topic with my post, I appreciate it's probably a little on the fringe, but feel free to remove it if it's not what you were looking for.

Originally posted by DivineTeacher
reply to post by Ignorance_Defier

 

Health care? you mean that debacle of a bill thats raising my sisters premiums to height ive NEVER seen before? that one? the very same one that has death panels in it? HOW could you possible misinterpret agenda 21 wanting to bring down population to 500 mil? and you are the biggest guppy of them all giving any credence to mainstream media that employs tactics like subliminal hand gestures and anyone credible they get on they misdirect and slip in associations of evil organizations or someone with an extremist view so now your connected with them. Haven't read the DREAM act really but on the note of illegals ive seen on record illegal aliens admitting the government told them if you vote against the people on laws such as gun rights they would be allowed full citizenship

It's allowing children to be on their parents plan till 26, everyone will get care and many other great things. I am on the left and am in favor for higher taxes to help others.

To me agenda 21 is a great work; it is about fixing the environment and retracting the negative effects of global warming that we all caused.

I encourage you to get involved in your local government and start there. See how politics in action actually work. Go to your local debates. Write to your senators and congresspeople. Get active, get involved and you will see the truth about the government and how it really works.

Basic problem may dwell in definition of misused terms "left" and "right". Those terms had different meaning in different times and have different meaning in USA and Europe. US Democratic party is from European point of view centrist, maybe even right centrist party. Lets start with precise definition of those terms and then we can debate.

EDIT to add: to be more specific: you connected left/right paradigm with some US "talking points" and few persons. Can you precisely define substance of left/right paradigm? Then we can decide if this paradigm is dead or alive.

reply to post by Ignorance_Defier


Sorry but I'm no going to discuss your congresspeople because I know very little about them individually (I'm not American) and haven't got the bandwitch to research now

In all honesty, considering you know all the about conspiracy theories already, there little chance I'm going to say anything to convince you otherwise. I'm far from the most knowledgable on these things anyway!

One thing though, I hope you're not reffering to Popular Mechanics debunking effort of the FEMA camps because as far as I'm aware PM are not exactly independent.

Leaving CT behind seems like a bizzare idea to me. Psychologically speaking, what could cause such a radical shift in opinion and world view, in either direction? Personally, after the initial realization that there was some truth in CT I freaked out a bit, believed some nonsense for a while then calmed down and took a step back. Now I look at most of this stuff as just interesting and an inspiration to do something good for the world. No need to panic or dismiss ideas outright.

Anyway, I'm verging on derailing here so I'll say goodbye

Originally posted by March of the Fire Ants
reply to post by Ignorance_Defier

 

Sorry but I'm no going to discuss your congresspeople because I know very little about them individually (I'm not American) and haven't got the bandwitch to research now

In all honesty, considering you know all the about conspiracy theories already, there little chance I'm going to say anything to convince you otherwise. I'm far from the most knowledgable on these things anyway!

One thing though, I hope you're not reffering to Popular Mechanics debunking effort of the FEMA camps because as far as I'm aware PM are not exactly independent.

Leaving CT behind seems like a bizzare idea to me. Psychologically speaking, what could cause such a radical shift in opinion and world view, in either direction? Personally, after the initial realization that there was some truth in CT I freaked out a bit, believed some nonsense for a while then calmed down and took a step back. Now I look at most of this stuff as just interesting and an inspiration to do something good for the world. No need to panic or dismiss ideas outright.

Anyway, I'm verging on derailing here so I'll say goodbye

March, I can relate to your last sentence in more ways than one. A phrase I picked up from this website when I first started to read the information on here was ''view with Detatched Interest'' and that is precisely what I tend to do these days. I do contribute to certain topics because I'm entitled to form an opinion, but generally I read more than I contribute.

reply to post by BAZ752


Yeah I think a heavy dose of salt is required for preserving sanity on this site!

The main thing that I dislike about the left right paradigm is how sensational it gets, particularly in the US. This idea that all lefties are socialist, marxist hippies and all righties (doesn't have the same ring as lefties but oh well...) are fascist, racist neocons.. it's counter productive and detracts from meaningfull debate.

It is quite possible that the left right divide is real, and that the real conspiracy is the idea that it isn't real. Considering all the conspiritorial assasinations in the past, one thing I've noticed is that the victims tend to be more left than right wing... Or am I interpreting it that way because I've been brought up left wing? It's a tough one and I'm not sure I can be bothered getting to the bottom of it, because if I did, how could I be sure it was the bottom?

Originally posted by March of the Fire Ants
reply to post by BAZ752

 

Yeah I think a heavy dose of salt is required for preserving sanity on this site!

The main thing that I dislike about the left right paradigm is how sensational it gets, particularly in the US. This idea that all lefties are socialist, marxist hippies and all righties (doesn't have the same ring as lefties but oh well...) are fascist, racist neocons.. it's counter productive and detracts from meaningfull debate.

It is quite possible that the left right divide is real, and that the real conspiracy is the idea that it isn't real. Considering all the conspiritorial assasinations in the past, one thing I've noticed is that the victims tend to be more left than right wing... Or am I interpreting it that way because I've been brought up left wing? It's a tough one and I'm not sure I can be bothered getting to the bottom of it, because if I did, how could I be sure it was the bottom?

Most people who are really involved in politics and are involved in their local government don't look at the left as socialist marxist, or right as fascist neocons. That's just the new comers, people that aren't involved in government themselves, uneducated people, sensational TV host or people that are bigoted in their views.

Yes lol, it is a conspiracy that there is no difference between the left and the right.

Hmm; well Kennedy was left but Lincon was on the right. Reagan was shot at and hit but lived, he was on the right. I am not sure about outside of the USA.

Lot's of left winged abortion doctors have been killed here in the USA.

I would say US foreign policy is a good example of the left right paradigm in action.The same policy has basically been followed by Obama as Bush. A surge in Afghanistan, secret operations in Yemen and Pakistan ,assassination programs ,keeping Gitmo open,many times the number of drone attacks,renewing the Patriot act .Obama's policy is a continuation of Bush's policy.Not really progressive.
There may be some changes but there is continuity of government no real challenge to the status quo.Left and right argue about wedge issues say gay marrige or ground zero mosques not really important in the grand scheme of things.


''The argument that the two parties should represent opposed ideals and policies, one, perhaps of the Right and the other of the Left, is a foolish idea acceptable only to the doctrinaire and academic thinkers. Instead the two parties should be almost identical, so that the American people can ‘throw the rascals out’ at any election without leading to any profound or extensive shifts in policy.'' Carroll Quigley

Originally posted by March of the Fire Ants
reply to post by Ignorance_Defier

 

Sorry but I'm no going to discuss your congresspeople because I know very little about them individually (I'm not American) and haven't got the bandwitch to research now

In all honesty, considering you know all the about conspiracy theories already, there little chance I'm going to say anything to convince you otherwise. I'm far from the most knowledgable on these things anyway!

One thing though, I hope you're not reffering to Popular Mechanics debunking effort of the FEMA camps because as far as I'm aware PM are not exactly independent.

Leaving CT behind seems like a bizzare idea to me. Psychologically speaking, what could cause such a radical shift in opinion and world view, in either direction? Personally, after the initial realization that there was some truth in CT I freaked out a bit, believed some nonsense for a while then calmed down and took a step back. Now I look at most of this stuff as just interesting and an inspiration to do something good for the world. No need to panic or dismiss ideas outright.
Anyway, I'm verging on derailing here so I'll say goodbye

Thanks for replying. Well that is what the PCT says when their argument is proven wrong they question the source of the "debunker" like Popular Mechanics. Nothing will prove to these people wrong except for self realization. They have invested so much time and poured so much emotion into these topics that they will not accept that they are wrong. I was one of them at one point, I believed in the 9/11 thing for years and learned about the conspiracy the week after it happened (coast to coast am).

These people claim that there is no difference between the left and right. I just can not understand the logic in that. Correct no conspiracy should be dismissed without investigation, but the more you investigate any of them the more likely you are to become a believer. There is much psychological study on conspiracy theories. If you do your own research you will be pleased with the results.