"My parents didn't fight off communism..."

I'm so sick of hearing this ! Don't blame communism for how people have warped it in the past; people warp everything. The only reason this section, among other sections of this forum are here is because capitalist democracies don't work either! The problem is not with concepts of how countries should be run (communism), it's with the stupid people we let try and do it. This whole veil that many Americans have over their eyes that labels communism as the enemy is really just silly. A concept of government is not oppressing anything -- stupid people are. I think this brainwashed view has played a huge part in the suppression of many basic human rights based on the "fear of communism". People need to stop arguing against things just because someone else told them to. Being afraid of something because it hasn't always worked in the past is not healthy for worldly progress.

People need to stop arguing against things just because someone else told them to.

Pretty bold assumption you're making there....how do you know that several people haven't educated themselves and formed their OWN opinions?

Just because an opinion is popular doesn't make it wrong. Look at Vanilla Ice...you know how everyone said he sucks, had no talent, and would be gone in a few years?

Well...everyone was absolutely spot on right....regardless of what MTV told us.

are you freaking kidding me?

do you have any any idea of what communism is?

do you know how many freedoms are taken away?

mao zedong google the dude and see how many millions of his own citizens died by his hands under the guise of communism.

multi millions have died
multi millions lived in abject poverty

thats one example over 70 million people murdered take a good look at russian communism........



i swear i dont know what to think about some people.

Originally posted by Snarf

how do you know that several people haven't educated themselves and formed their OWN opinions?

Because if they did, there would be no argument . Try looking somewhere other than an overly-biased American History textbook.

reply to post by neo96

Try reading my post, you're doing exactly what I said, genius. Labelling based on what PEOPLE do. Stop being so biased. Relocate your immature huffing at someone who will tend to your wounds, muffin.

Originally posted by neo96
are you freaking kidding me?

do you have any any idea of what communism is?

do you know how many freedoms are taken away?

mao zedong google the dude and see how many millions of his own citizens died by his hands under the guise of cummunism.

multi millions have died
multi millions lived in abject poverty

thats one example over 70 million people murdered take a good look at russian communism........



i swear i dont know what to think about some people.

edit on 2-10-2010 by neo96 because: (no reason given)

True communism is a classless society.
Mao didn't have a classless society.

try speaking to people who have lived under communism

communism just so great why has it failed?


what label? the topic at hand is communism right? thats what we are speaking about.


you bet your bottom dollar i will be biased agianst communism you are obviously living in a dream world if you think

communism is appealing and no matter if the goal is

and really? telling me what to do and how to think yup thats what communism is like you have that aspect down pat

Maybe it hasn't worked in the past for a reason. Have you ever read Animal Farm by George Orwell? If not I suggest that you do. It explains that while communism itself is a good thing, it can never work because of the corruption of leaders.

I also don't understand your title. My parents did fight off communism so..........

Originally posted by neo96
try speaking to people who have lived under communism

communism just so great why has it failed?


what label? the topic at hand is communism right? thats what we are speaking about.


you bet your bottom dollar i will be biased agianst communism you are obviously living in a dream world if you think

communism is appealing and no matter if the goal is

and really? telling me what to do and how to think yup thats what communism is like you have that aspect down pat

Those people who suffered weren't suffering under communism, they were suffering under a twisted form of socialism and mass corruption.

The reality is, for communism to work, it would have to be done incredibly slowly and completely voluntarily, otherwise it will always turn into tyranny.

Originally posted by Brood

Being afraid of something because it hasn't always worked in the past is not healthy for worldly progress.

Not to be a "Debbie Downer" about this, but your logic seems flawed to me. Communism hasn't ever worked in the past. Saying "hasn't always" implies at least a partial success. That is not the case with communism.

Learning from past mistakes is the most healthy way of learning. You only grab a hot stove burner once. If you go back, annually, to see if things are somehow different now. Well, that's the very definition of insanity - repeating the same actions, over and over again, expecting different results.

The reality is that the system described by Marx is an idealistic one. In theory it seems like a good answer. But in practice things just don't work out the way they are supposed to. Marx supposes that everybody will work for a common goal when, in practice, people tend to seek to skew the system to benefit themselves. Corruption will always be a factor in the system. And inevitable corruption makes a Marxist system of governance impossible.

Originally posted by BroodPeople need to stop arguing against things just because someone else told them to.

While I disagree wholeheartedly with your OP seeing I had family fight against Communism, I do agree with the above quoted text.

Unfortunately everyone today believes what's been told to them by someone else who has again been told by another person who's been told by another rinse and repeat...

I find it strange to attack a fine theory that could work with a change of mind simply because men of today are corrupt and greedy.

Originally posted by hippomchippo
I find it strange to attack a fine theory that could work with a change of mind simply because men of today are corrupt and greedy.

Not that men of today are greedy. But, rather, that men have been, are, and always will be. It's part of our biological imperative to hoard. All mammals engage in this behavior.

Originally posted by Hefficide

Originally posted by hippomchippo
I find it strange to attack a fine theory that could work with a change of mind simply because men of today are corrupt and greedy.

Not that men of today are greedy. But, rather, that men have been, are, and always will be. It's part of our biological imperative to hoard. All mammals engage in this behavior.

Yes, but you don't think that we can change this? Perhaps not now or even in 20 or 30 years, but eventually, I think it's possible to change our ways of thinking.

We lived in a communistic society when we were hunter gatherers, but somehow we've become lost on a track where all we do is seek material goods, at the expense of others.

My dad escaped from Hungary when he was 19.

Anyone that thinks living under communism would be great is a total flying retard.

While it is absolutely true that capitalist democracies don't work, capitalism itself is the ONLY thing that works.

Government has destroyed us, not the free market.

We haven't had a free market in this country since the Federal Reserve was created.

reply to post by Brood


What's your definition of "work?" I think nearly all the founders of what we call capitalism and modern republics admitted that no government "works." But I think history has proven them right that capitalist, market-republics function better than just about anything else mankind has created.

Here is the deal folks.

You can have a philosophical discussion about communism, marxism, socialism etc.

The problem as others have mentioned, the world is not a philosophical or an academic locale.

To set up a system you have to consider ALL ramifications and parameters.

You cannot just state something as callous or ignorant as well if people changed. That is where the mentality of the tyrant comes in. They argue that they will enforce the given parameters to make the system work. Come hell or high waters. That is the problem.

Hell, it is not even only the problem of the tyrants alone. Look at the lazy and those that see that no matter the work ethic, everyone gets the exact same thing. So why bother to work hard, it gets you no where. Add into that, those that see that working within the system does not give you anymore, then that is where the additional corruption and theft comes in.

Look at the USSR in this regards. Out a train goes with materials or whatever. By the time it gets to the destination it is empty from all of the people that have the access to remove the supplies.

The only fair and equitable system has always been free market theory. It is the most efficient use of the resources and the most adaptable to change.

You do not even have to look at full blown communist or socialist systems. Look at the west as an example. The more and more centralized and powerful the control, the more and more corrupt and inefficient the system becomes.

This is NOT Star Trek and whatever your perceptions of reality are, force is never the way to implement any system. Socialism and Communism REQUIRE force to implement it.

How is that socialism of corporations working out for us in the west? That is what it is called when you bail out those that fail. Socialism. Just because it is to entities you do not like, does not mean it is not based on that system.

I must not be clear in my point, sorry. I'm not saying "Let's switch to communism!"; I'm saying "Let's not pretend certain ideas that people bring up -- usually politically -- should be quickly ignored because they somewhat remind us of communism in some way."

To clear up my title, I saw someone reply to the topic of a federal health care bill in America "My parents did not fight off communism so that it could take over the Western World!" People need to stop being so closed minded just because they are hung up on some idea of a villain that Uncle Sam told them to hate.

"The Constitution is the world’s oldest charter of national government in continuous use. It was written in 1787 during the Constitutional Convention, which had been convened in the midst of the political crisis that followed the American Revolution."
www.theusaonline.com...

How many communist countries have destroyed themselves since our founders wrote and signed the constitution? You are correct though people will warp anything, that is why Americans are having rallies, protests, and organizing AGAINST the "fundamental change" of our constitution.

Originally posted by Brood
I'm so sick of hearing this

! Don't blame communism for how people have warped it in the past; people warp everything. The only reason this section, among other sections of this forum are here is because capitalist democracies don't work either! The problem is not with concepts of how countries should be run (communism), it's with the stupid people we let try and do it. This whole veil that many Americans have over their eyes that labels communism as the enemy is really just silly. A concept of government is not oppressing anything -- stupid people are. I think this brainwashed view has played a huge part in the suppression of many basic human rights based on the "fear of communism". People need to stop arguing against things just because someone else told them to. Being afraid of something because it hasn't always worked in the past is not healthy for worldly progress.

reply to post by Brood

Because if they did, there would be no argument . Try looking somewhere other than an overly-biased American History textbook.

Try reading Das Kapital if you want to really know what is wrong with communism. Marx advocates a "stateless society" by way of creating a Leviathan state, as if a Leviathan state would so easily surrender its power once the ideals of communism had been successfully implemented, and that's assuming such a thing were even possible.

Simply applying critical thought to the ideal; "to each according to their needs, from each according to their capabilities", reveals numerous flaws. First of all, the obvious question that arises from such an ideal is who ultimately decides what these needs are and who is most capable? Next, when thinking critically, what should be clear is that those who need the most are rarely those who are capable, and under such a paradigm what happens is that those who are capable are punished for being so, while those not capable are rewarded for being so needy.

Under such a paradigm, what is to stop those most capable from disguising their capabilities in order to qualify as needy? Their is, quite simply, no real motivation to produce under communism. The need for a Leviathan state would remain constant as someone would have to force people to produce. That is, if communism were to be implemented across the board in a society. However, under the principles of a free market, small groups of individuals could very easily take the ideal of communism and create a commune and succeed or fail based upon the merits of communism without forcing the rest of society to succeed or fail with them. Conversely, under the principles of communism, small groups of individuals could not very easily take the ideals of a free market and create a group of capitalists as such a thing would be prohibited by the rules of communism.

This is not propaganda, but is simply critical thought applied to the principles of communism. What I know of communism I learned reading Das Kapital.