Unnatural

A simple question: "What is unnatural?"

As many people have pointed out in a certain very popular thread which considers sexuality, it is illogical to claim something to be unnatural - as is often case intolerant and small-minded people, who say - for the sake of example - that birth-control is unnatural.

So as many have understood:

Unnatural is a logical fallacy

.

How can out of nature become something unnatural?

Then there are the extreme religious people who will say that "it is against the will of God!". And these people think that could know anything about will of God? For a moment they should consider that if their God is omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent entity, how anything that exists could be "against his will", for he created everything.

Sure, human beings manipulate nature more than most animals, but we cannot act in unnatural way. Everything is natural! Everythings OK. Somethings are just perceived to be improper, usually in cultural sense.

As long as we don't violate laws of universe (which I maintain to be impossible) we cannot do anything that is unnatural. Ex Nihilo Nihil Fit, Out of Nothing Nothing Comes - or something like that

If someone thinks there is something unnatural, speak now, or shut up forever

-v

reply to post by v01i0


There are 24 threads associated with the search term "Homosexuality is unnatural".

There are 67 threads associated with the search term "Homosexuality is natural"

Why did you start this thread?

As far as for us humans, I have to agree that nothing is unnatural. Sure we have insticts that are for most part dominated by our hormones or by an ancient survival instinct. But we also have this great capability to control our behaviour and urges, to change our surroundings and to make choices. Having all that is also part of nature, its the result of human evolution (which is the most natural thing: evolution)

Now, the animal kingdom hasn't benefited as much from evolutions as we did. We can control the animals if we want to. The act of that 'controlling' isn't unnatural to us, but it creates unnatural circomstances for the animal.
An animal in a zoo is not natural.
A monkey performing in a circus is not natural.

Maybe it's natural for humans to act in a way that nature didn't intend... or maybe it did

reply to post by v01i0


I tend to agree with you, however,
If nothing is unnatural, then is everything acceptable?
We use the word natural in many different ways.
What do we mean by 'nature'?
If nature is 'what is' then is it just another word for reality?
Can something become 'natural'?

Originally posted by Iamonlyhuman
reply to post by v01i0

 

There are 24 threads associated with the search term "Homosexuality is unnatural".

There are 67 threads associated with the search term "Homosexuality is natural"

Why did you start this thread?

I didn't notice that this thread was about homosexuality?

I always thought child abuse was unnatural but after reading your thread I now realise god is just a big pedo. This must be why the roman catholic church loves to abuse kids, god must love and demand it. It all makes sense to me now, cheers!

reply to post by v01i0


Is plastic natural?
Does it occur naturally?

Plastic is manufactured by humans.
Humans can create unnatural products.
Humans can act unnaturally.


Can you see how I did that.

i do not really understand the term unatural, everything is natural the way i see it, even man made things are natural. it is just beyond my comprehension how any one can validate thier personal opinions by what is natural or unatural.

i do not really understand the term unatural, everything is natural the way i see it, even man made things are natural. it is just beyond my comprehension how any one can validate thier personal opinions by what is natural or unatural.

Unnatural/Natural is totally a gray area. People can bend it to their beliefs. I deff see where the OP is going with what he means. Everyone has a different view of what is natural/unnatural, just like I may like the taste of tomatoes you may not. It differs among everyone.

Ok, why don't we replace the word Natural with Normal

Is it normal for someone to have 4 arms?

Is it normal for somebody to be Gay/Lesbian?

Not really considering it doesnt follow a normal trend.

So its abnormal

Ok, why don't we replace the word Natural with Normal

Is it normal for someone to have 4 arms?

Is it normal for somebody to be Gay/Lesbian?

Not really considering it doesnt follow a normal trend.

So its abnormal

Originally posted by threadkiller
i do not really understand the term unatural, everything is natural the way i see it, even man made things are natural. it is just beyond my comprehension how any one can validate thier personal opinions by what is natural or unatural.

Are you invalidating your own opinion that everything is natural?
Does this place your own opinion beyond your own comprehension?
How do you resolve this personal paradox?

natural vs. normal good point. i wanted to bring this up on another thread, but being so heavily moderated i decided to refrain. thank you for this thread op. what is natral?

Originally posted by GypsK
I didn't notice that this thread was about homosexuality?

Do you really think it's not?

If you really think this then you don't have to reply because I won't.

reply to post by v01i0


This is referring to the homosexuality isn't natural debate I would assume. I feel both the religious people and the non-religious people are both operating under two different and separate logical fallacies! Two of them!! You're right about the one, but I don't think most people catch the second one.

This is what causes the problem. Neither side will ever win that debate because its entire initial premise is wrong. Homosexuality in fact IS natural. You will see it in the animal kingdom from time to time. Especially with dogs.

The first problem is one put forth by the non-religious people and that is, if it's natural it's okay. QED If it is natural it is okay. Homosexuality is natural. Therefore homosexuality is okay. But that's not correct. Please note, I'm not saying homosexuality is wrong. It is just justifying this way is a logical fallacy.

Some other things that are "natural" are pedophilia, animals raping other animals, murdering other animals, eating other animals, eating their own young, killing animals of their own kind, and monkeys like to throw their poop at each other. All those things are perfectly "natural", however they would NOT be acceptable for a human to do.

For example I can't just throw poop in my neighbors face tomorrow and say, "IT'S OKAY! IT'S COMPLETELY NATURAL! I EVOLVED FROM APES!" So, now we see the logical fallacy.

The mistake that was made was homosexuals started using this logical fallacy to justify their homosexuality. What we got in response was a second logical fallacy from the religious people.

The religious people countered one logical fallacy with ANOTHER logical fallacy. That's how we got this stupid debate. The religious people started asserting that NO homosexuality ISN'T natural even though it IS natural.

What the proper response from the religious people should have been is, you and I are using two different definitions of the word "natural". Your definition is OPPOSITE of mine and contradicts it. Therefore the age old wisdom of if it is natural, it's okay then becomes a logical fallacy as well according to your definition of the word natural. Therefore, just because it is natural does not make it okay! That was the proper response in the debate.

The second logical fallacy comes from the BIBLE! of course. See in the Bible the word natural DOES NOT MEAN NATURAL! This is the trick right here. This is the second one that nobody catches.

It means something entirely different, but the religious people don't know that! It means how God has designed a human being to act. When a religious person says natural they don't mean natural. They actually mean God's will instead!

That's what natural USED to mean to the mainstream. That's where the logical fallacy of if it's natural it is okay comes from, religion. Because natural USED to mean the will of God. If it was God's will then it was okay right? So, if God's will was what was natural for us, then if it is natural it's okay! It is what God intended for us. The religious people made the same logical fallacy but in REVERSE because their definition of the word natural is opposite of what it means today.

But then came along Greek philosophers and scientists and while nobody was looking something happened! They changed the definition of the word NATURAL! With science the meaning of the word natural has been changed and the religious people didn't catch it! It slipped right by them!

Now in science the word natural means anything that occurs in the NATURAL world! Well guess what, EVERYTHING occurs in the natural world. That means that according to the scientists everything is natural! It doesn't mean God's will anymore like it used to!

Therefore you can't use it to justify your behavior anymore like some homosexuals have been doing because if you do you're saying EVERYTHING is natural therefore EVERYTHING is okay, but we know some forms of behavior are in fact not acceptable. When the religious people say it is not natural what they really mean and what they should say instead is it is not God's will.

And that's how we got this stupid debate. The logical fallacy of course is that as soon as the mainstream definition of the word natural changed, so did the age old wisdom of if it's natural it's okay. That changed too because natural no longer meant God's will and the whole fallacy was based on the idea that natural==God's will so it's okay.

We have to stop this idea that if it's natural it is okay crap. Since human beings can communicate with each other and we have logic and reasoning we have formed societies together. For societies to function we all have to agree to operate by certain rules that we all agree on for our society to function. This is where things are determined to be okay or not, not by nature.

In nature anything goes. You can't throw poop on someone's face and say it's okay! It's natural! No, in society we all sit down and go ya know, it's really fun to throw poop in your face, but I sure don't want everyone throwing their poop in my face! How about we all agree to not throw our poop in each other's faces! And everyone says okay that's a great idea! We'll all play by the same rules!

That's how a society works. That's what determines what's right and wrong. The golden rule. It doesn't matter if it's natural or not and just because it is natural doesn't justify our behavior. What justifies our behavior is if we're all playing by the rules that we ALL agree on.

Religion is actually about being a little unnatural and following unnatural practices and traditions and ways of life so you can be MORE than just an animal that exhibits their NATURAL behavior everywhere they go. It's about discipline and not doing things that are bad for you even though naturally your body desires that you do them.

Religion is about stepping away from your animal side into your spiritual side and trying to reach a higher level even if it means not doing things you'd very much like to do, like get married to a women if you are a priest for example. So people are gonna do a lot of things that simply aren't natural. After all, if you could attain a higher self NATURALLY we wouldn't need religion at all. We'd just have to wait around for it to happen.

Society has a similar goal of doing things unnaturally but instead the focus is on reaching a higher level as a group and not as an individual. It's about everyone living and working together peacefully to attain a shared goal instead of the complete anarchy you would have if everyone just followed their natural desires. After all, if it was natural, we wouldn't need governments and police officers to enforce it. We'd just have to wait around for it to happen.

So, yes homosexuality in the Bible is a sin. Yes some people have the natural desire to be a homosexual. Some people have the natural desire to steal and lie. Some people have the natural desire to donate what they have to others and tell the truth. Just because you have a natural desire to do something has no bearing on the argument.

Now in the Bible the reason homosexuality is wrong is because some guy said some deity passed these rules down and these are the rules. Some of them like lying or stealing we understand why they're wrong. Others like homosexuality we don't.

It doesn't matter though, because we live in a secular society now. What's right and wrong is now based on a set of rules that we all agree to follow to reach a higher level of living as a group(s). Our rules are not based on what God says cause this isn't a theocracy like so many people believe. At least in the states where I am.

Debating if homosexuality is right or wrong MUST be based in that context of a society and not in the context of if it's natural or not. We know it's natural. What's important is how does it relate to our society? Is it good for society? Is it bad for society? Do we wish to allow it as a society or not allow it? Does it hurt anyone? Is it a public health threat? What rights do homosexuals have as a minority? Even if we as a society don't want to allow it, must we anyway because they have rights?

These are the only kinds of questions that matter in the debate. This is the context that it MUST be debated in to make any sense or we will get nowhere!

In my opinion, if two gay guys wanna be gay together then I'm all for it. I'll help them anyway I can. After all, in the OT it says they should be put to death and I know I'm not going to go around and kill gay people, so if I don't believe in that part of the OT why believe in it at all?

I do believe in Jesus's teachings, but he himself never said anything about homosexuality and how that relates is a whole different topic for another thread. The bottom line here is I'm not here to debate about if homosexuality is right or wrong. I'm only here to point out that people are debating it the wrong way and that's it.

When debated in the correct way I think it's pretty obvious we'll see that in our secular society that there is no reason that homosexuals should not have all the same rights any of us do and even the right to marry. Don't even know why government is involved in marriages anyway and I don't know why other people should be able to exert their opinion in the form of force through the government to stop them from marrying. But that's for another time.

Just because something happens in the natural world, does it mean it's acceptable?

Nature has it's cruel side, no doubt, such as male animals killing young they didn't spawn.

What part of nature entices a man to abduct children and abuse them sexually?
What part makes a mother drown her children one by one?
What makes a man get wasted on alcohol & beat his wife senseless?
Is it a natural process for a man to abduct others, torture them, then slice them up and ocassionaly dine on their body parts?
What evolutionary advantage is there to a man hurling his own child from a moving vehicle?

In the natural world, humans seem to be the oddity. No other animal exhibits such behavior as we do, nor are they as destructive to the "nature" from which they came as we are. We weren't always this way. There was a time where we existed in harmony with everything else, and during that time I doubt there was much if any of the things that I mentioned above going on.

reply to post by sykickvision


as tinfoilman wrote so eliquently nature should not be part of the argument but rather what is right and wrong for society as a whole.

reply to post by Iamonlyhuman

Originally posted by Iamonlyhuman

Originally posted by GypsK
I didn't notice that this thread was about homosexuality?

Do you really think it's not?

No it's not. It's about demonstrating sophistically and logically that there is no unnatural.

reply to post by midicon

Originally posted by midicon
reply to post by v01i0

 

I tend to agree with you, however,
If nothing is unnatural, then is everything acceptable?

Not necessarily. But acceptance is very much bound on morals.

reply to post by sykickvision

Originally posted by sykickvision
Just because something happens in the natural world, does it mean it's acceptable?

See the answer above.

reply to post by atlasastro

Originally posted by atlasastro
reply to post by v01i0

 

Is plastic natural?
Does it occur naturally?

Plastic is manufactured by humans.
Humans can create unnatural products.
Humans can act unnaturally.

Can you see how I did that.

I did

You are right, cars don't grow in the trees and so on. But we humans cannot violate laws of the universe and all our products are natural through the fact that human makes the products out of nature. Even beavers build dams and animals use tools.

-v

If morals are "natural" and child molestation is "natural" and morals say that child molestation is wrong.....then....isn't that a paradox?