Palestine - The greatest lie in history

Originally posted by Rook1545

Originally posted by gravitational
reply to post by Rook1545

 

Why the Jews left??
Is that suppose to a be a joke or something?

Ever heard of Jews being exiled?
You do know of the deportation of most of the Jewish people from their homeland don't you?

What border dispute between Israel and Egypt?
Before 1967 The Sinai desert was entirely Egyptian.

Do us a favor and go read a good history book before writing more ignorant comments.

And you call me the ignorant one...

The Six-Day War or June War (Hebrew: מלחמת ששת הימים, transliterated: Milhemet Sheshet Ha Yamim; Arabic: النكسة transliterated: an-Naksah (The Setback), or حرب 1967, Ḥarb 1967 (War of 1967)), also known as the 1967 Arab-Israeli War or the Third Arab-Israeli War, was fought between June 5 and June 10, 1967, by Israel and the neighboring states of Egypt [known then as the United Arab Republic (UAR)], Jordan, and Syria. At the war's end, Israel had seized the Gaza Strip and the Sinai Peninsula from Egypt, the West Bank and East Jerusalem from Jordan, and the Golan Heights from Syria. The status of the Israeli-occupied territories and the concurrent refugee problem, are central concerns in the ongoing Israeli–Palestinian conflict, raising issues in international law, and having far-reaching consequences in global affairs

Well look at that, just like I said, in 1967, Egypt and Israel had a border dispute.

...so I am pretty sure Egyptians went to war over border disputes...in fact I am pretty sure that happened in 1967...with Israel...

In May of 1967, Nasser received false reports from the Soviet Union that Israel was massing on the Syrian border. In response Nasser began massing his troops in the Sinai Peninsula on Israel's border (May 16), expelled the UNEF force from Gaza and Sinai (May 19) and took up UNEF positions at Sharm el-Sheikh, overlooking the Straits of Tiran.[15][16] Israel reiterated declarations made in 1957 that any closure of the Straits would be considered an act of war, or justification for war.[17][18] Nasser declared the Straits closed to Israeli shipping on May 22–23.

en.wikipedia.org...

You just ignore the fact that the Arabs have constantly attacked Israel or closed the straights to start wars with them.

reply to post by Rook1545


This excerpt talks about the 1st' century.
Read here about the Jewish exile before attempting to change history.

en.wikipedia.org...

About the six days war, you have some comprehension problems. There were no border dispute between Egypt and Israel for the sole reason, there were no Egyptian territories in Israeli hands.
The Sinai desert was occupied during that said war. The Gaza strip was occupied by Egypt and than by Israel before 1967. Egypt never attempted to free it in war or even “return “ in the Israel-Egypt peace agreements.

reply to post by RedBird


Thank you!

When I opened this thread, I had no intention in changing the minds of those who's hearts are filled with hate. It is aimed towards those who admit to not know enough about this conflict, and are missing some basic facts to determine what's right or wrong, what's black white or in the gray zone.

In another thread, people were surprised I had a list of almost 100 FOEs. Every time I encountered someone saying “Hitler was right”, “back to the ovens”, “fascist Jews, they rule the world”...well you get the picture. It's a very common chanting here on ATS. By making a member my FOE, I could tell immediately what to expect from him without taking the effort to go into endless arguments.

However, I like clean slates, so the list is empty as of now. I'm just waiting for the usual choir to start their boring anti-Jew rantings again. I'm pretty sure the list will be filled fairly fast again.

reply to post by gravitational


I'd just like to live in the now..

And right now Isreal is strangling a population..

It's a "slow kill" operation and thats the problem..

If they want to takeover all the land then grow some balls and invade..
Show their true colors..

If not, then back off and let them live in peace..

reply to post by CynicalM


Why? Why should they invade?
After the Oslo agreements, Israel withdraw from every city and village in the west bank and Gaza.
It was Gaza city first and continued throughout the west bank. That led to an unprecedented terror attacks against Israeli civilians.

Then came camp David ii talks (in which by the way, the Palestinians refused the 97% land offer) , that led to yet another terror attacks known as the second Intifada.

In 2005 the government led by Ariel Sharon withdraw from Gaza strip entirely. The Gazans response came in the form rockets, car bombs, IED, infiltrations and more.
In 2009 Israel was left with no choice but to attack the Gaza terror infrastructures.

So you see, Israel had no desires for invading and conquering those territories. It could if it wanted to. The “strangling “ (could be debatable term) is the “Palestinian” own doing that could be stopped if they only chose to do so.

The “slow kill” is pure propaganda. It can not be supported by any statistics. People think what they think of Gaza because the pictures shown to the world are always about destruction. I can show you pictures of another Gaza, a one with green grass, restaurants, sunny beaches.
Billions were given to Gaza. None of that funding went to ease the life in the refuge camps. None.
Ask yourself why..

reply to post by gravitational


I must be mistaken..

I thought part of the problem was all the new Isreali settlement slowly encroaching on their land...

Forgive my ignorance. I thought they were fighting to keep their land.

Originally posted by gravitational
reply to post by CynicalM

 

Why? Why should they invade?
After the Oslo agreements, Israel withdraw from every city and village in the west bank and Gaza.
It was Gaza city first and continued throughout the west bank. That led to an unprecedented terror attacks against Israeli civilians.

Then came camp David ii talks (in which by the way, the Palestinians refused the 97% land offer) , that led to yet another terror attacks known as the second Intifada.

In 2005 the government led by Ariel Sharon withdraw from Gaza strip entirely. The Gazans response came in the form rockets, car bombs, IED, infiltrations and more.
In 2009 Israel was left with no choice but to attack the Gaza terror infrastructures.

So you see, Israel had no desires for invading and conquering those territories. It could if it wanted to. The “strangling “ (could be debatable term) is the “Palestinian” own doing that could be stopped if they only chose to do so.

The “slow kill” is pure propaganda. It can not be supported by any statistics. People think what they think of Gaza because the pictures shown to the world are always about destruction. I can show you pictures of another Gaza, a one with green grass, restaurants, sunny beaches.
Billions were given to Gaza. None of that funding went to ease the life in the refuge camps. None.
Ask yourself why..

It's scary to think that history can be so hastily revised not even half a century after the fact... but you're doing an excellent job of it! I bet you may have even duped one or two people who don't read real history books.

I normally don't replay like this but...


Stupid thread...

reply to post by Son of Will


True, and already pointed out by another poster that the OP is using the "new and improved" history, courtesy of Israeli funding...

Their advertising reads..

" Why worry about your past mistakes when for just a few $millions [given by US taxpayers] we can change it to make you look like God's chossen."

Ok Grav. You finally after a year and a half produced your first thread. I think it is a good one that you spent a good deal of time researching. For that you get an S&F from me even though I disagree with your premise.
There are three pages of posts debunking your premise so I won't be redundant and repeat what other posters have said.

I will address only one area. the part where you mention the Arabs left because Arab Governments encouraged them to do so. With respect I wish to point out the major "exodus" of Palestinians began with the Israeli slaughter at Dier Yassin before the British Mandate was concluded.

"
Early in the morning of Friday, April 9, 1948, commandos of the Irgun, headed by Menachem Begin, and the Stern Gang attacked Deir Yassin, a village with about 750 Palestinian residents. It was several weeks before the end of the British Mandate. The village lay outside of the area that the United Nations recommended be included in a future Jewish State. Deir Yassin had a peaceful reputation and was even said by a Jewish newspaper to have driven out some Arab militants. But it was located on high ground in the corridor between Tel Aviv and Jerusalem and one plan, kept secret until years afterwards, called for it to be destroyed and the residents evacuated to make way for a small airfield that would supply the beleaguered Jewish residents of Jerusalem."

www.deiryassin.org...

By noon over 100 residents of the village had been killed, over half of them women and children. Those surviving ran in fear of their lives.
According to Begin:

"Arabs throughout the country, induced to believe wild tales of "Irgun butchery," were seized with limitless panic and started to flee for their lives. This mass flight soon developed into a maddened, uncontrollable stampede. The political and economic significance of this development can hardly be overestimated."

Haganah, Irgun and The Stern Gang, all terrorist group continued to terrorize about 350 other Palestinian villages where several hundred thousand people fled for fear of death. IF an Arab government encouraged them to leave it was to save their lives as the Israeli slaughter was relentless.

Additional sources
medlibrary.org...
www.centipedia.com...

reply to post by CynicalM


Got anything smart to say? Because I havn't heard it yet.

Oh the irony

Pakistan blast kills 59.

news.blogs.cnn.com...

The blast occurred during an rally for Al Quds day, an annual event in the Arab and Muslim world that criticizes Israeli policies toward the Palestinians.

Got any smart comments on that, or is: Arabs kill Arabs = no news.
I'm sure if it was the act of Israel, than ATS usual ranting would turn into an orchestra of misinformation agents.

Much of what has been said is just blurring the issue.
There is only one fact.
Israeli settlers are living on the land of displaced persons.
Let's take it closer to home so you can understand. Say another US state wins the land of your state in a settlement. Settlers come from the other state and boot you out of your house. As far as they are concerned, they won it fair and square. Besides, their God says it's theirs by right. Now how would you feel? HOW WOULD YOU FEEL?
So called 'settlers' are a parasite. They and their ilk are scum. Their religion belongs in the dark ages - along with Islamic fundamentalists and all the rest.



[edit on 4-9-2010 by starchild10]

reply to post by gem_man


No one debunked anything so far.

No one even addressed what President Assad, Nasser, Ahmad Shukeiri, King Hussein, Yasser Arafat and other Arab leaders said. There is and never was a Palestinian people.

About Dier Yassin.

It's a myth. Believe it or not, it's a myth born by the Hagana none the less. Not even by the Arabs. The Hagana and its leaders were in a dirty political fight with the Revisionist movement and its military forces Irgun and Lehi. This myth was quickly adopted by the arabs.

I suggest you read the work of Dr' Uri Milstein that debunks this event.

reply to post by gravitational

During the first year of the current uprising, 165 Israelis were killed by Palestinians and at least 549 Palestinians were killed by Israelis.3 The majority of those killed among both populations were civilians.

www.ifamericansknew.org...

Great site..When you OWN the media you can "make up" the truth to suit your needs..

Need I say more???

Even the Israelis will not argue now that they have KILLED more that they have been killed.

reply to post by gravitational


You are loosing this one..
People can see beyond the lies spread by Israeli owned media even in the US..

Move on to another more gullible audience..

Originally posted by CynicalM
reply to post by gravitational

 

During the first year of the current uprising, 165 Israelis were killed by Palestinians and at least 549 Palestinians were killed by Israelis.3 The majority of those killed among both populations were civilians.

www.ifamericansknew.org...

Great site..When you OWN the media you can "make up" the truth to suit your needs..

Need I say more???

Even the Israelis will not argue now that they have KILLED more that they have been killed.

Splendid source. Not biased at all. If Israel control the media /(and banks, Obama, oil, Illuminati)
how is it that this magnificent source is still online?
Is that the website that compared the Holocaust to Gaza? Don't most Arabs believe there were never a Holocaust, so that comparison is...what?

Never mind, don't bother answering that.

Hey pssst, here is a little secret for ya:

As long as Arabs attack Israel, Israel will kill more Arabs than Israeli killed. As long as Arabs hide their weapons and launch attacks from civilian structures, more Arab civilians will die. Sad but true. Just yesterday a house belongs to a Hizzballa militant exploded (again... sigh ) because he was hiding ammunition in that residential area .

reply to post by gravitational


You make a good argument for the uninformed.

Dier Yassin was a myth? Not so Grav It is a matter of history. Palestine a lie? Even Ben Gurian is quoted discussing the "Palestinian people" Israels current PM refers to the Arabs on the West Bank as "Palestinians" There are numerous ancient maps attesting to "Palestine" The Roman occupiers of the "Holy Land" referred to it as "Palestine".

Most of the educated world knows there is and was a Palestine. It it easy to write a book and say there was never a Palestine. That of course would not make it true. In any case there certainly seems to be an Area called Palestine today. In fact the League of Nations and then the United Nations Recognized that there existed a "Palestine" In fact Palestine was a mandate under article 22 of the League of Nations covenant. In our language a trust. The residents of Palestine were the beneficiaries. Britian was the Mandatory power. Article 22 defined Palestine as one of those Mandates that was "provisionally recognised as an independant nation but needed the Mandatory powers advice and assistance on it's road to statehood.
When the League of Nations was disolved in 1946 it's duties regarding the mandate was assumed by the UN. On November 29, 1947 the UNGA adopted the key "partition" resolution. (Res 181) As soon as Res 181 was passed the borders between Israel and Palestine were fixed and could only be changed (in a legal sense) by explicit agreement between the two parties.
Israel proclaimed it's state within six months of 181. Palestine has yet to do so but has not forfieted the right to do so.
So Your concern as to the "lie" of "Palestine" seems to be without merit as the Governing Legal body for the world community certainly believes there is a Palestine.

reply to post by ManBehindTheMask

LoL ok, so according to your logic, and what you just said........the Jews created WWII by helping the US take over Europe during WWII, how the hell does that time line work?

If that is what you thought I said, then you are a 6 year old who just learned how to read and write. Then again, if you are trying to make me look stupid by claiming that is what I said, you are an evil man

America never took sides until the destruction was so severe that it could easily take control over Europe.

The Zionist Jews harbored by the US already helped start WWII..
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/4d673955bf4a.gif[/atsimg]
it was later on that US came in.

What I'm saying is obvious, that Zionist Jews helped US take over Europe by starting an European civil war. Not to mention Russia, because Russia was also involved. That is why the US gave Palestine, which was under British mandate, to Zionist Jews..


Then US and USSR had a long struggle in Europe, both trying to take over, what do you think the cold war was about?

As the map showed, Europe had huge control, so who ever took over Europe basically would have inherited most of Africa, and the middle east, which was partly British controlled, at least the most resource rich parts.

I can go on, but what is the point, you need to learn your history..



[edit on 4-9-2010 by oozyism]

Actually the historical term by the Romans was called the Roman Province of Iudaea en.wikipedia.org...(Roman_province)

This was before "Palestine" came into existence and Romans documented this history. The Egyptians also documented a people as well as a nation called Israel.

I guess people forgot about this piece of history as well, was this part of "Palestine"?




www.unrv.com...

nice try attempting to change history. Palaestina was a "region" not a country with borders. That's like saying I belong to the midwest.


Roman influence in the near eastern provinces of Judaea and Syria Palaestina first came to major fruition with the conquests of Gnaeus Pompeius Magnus (Pompey the Great). In 64 BC, the Jews had maintained nearly 2 centuries of independent rule from various eastern nations, but internal struggles and succession issues after the death of King Alexander Jannaeus threatened the stability. His sons, Hyrcanus and Aristobulus, as well as other political and religious factions, all vied for the Judean crown, and they eventually sought mediation from the great Roman conqueror Pompey.

Pompey endorsed Hyrcanus, but Aristobulus and his followers bided their time to resist the decision. While Pompey was busy in a minor campaign against the Arabic Nabataeans, Aristobulus seized Jerusalem and Rome was forced to do more than mediate. Pompey besieged the ancient city and within 3 months, officially made Hyrcanus the high priest and established Judaea as a client state. Despite this, Judaea remained independent of Roman authority provided they stayed within the rules of their status, and some degree of instability beleaguered the state for some time.

Some 2 decades later, Julius Caesar arrived in Judaea while on campaign in the east in 47 BC. The Jews were granted various benefits owing to the uniqueness of their monotheistic religion and Hyrcanus was officially made the King or Ethnarch. Antipater Idumean was granted the first Roman title of the area, being appointed as procurator. It was his responsibility to see to the day to day management of Roman interests and provincial oversight. However, Antipater was assassinated soon after, and his son, the soon to be famous Herod, took his place. Shortly thereafter, Parthian invasions from Syria set up Aristobolus II on the throne, but Herod shrewdly garnered the intervention of the Roman Senate was confirmed as Ethnarch in 37 BC. Later, Marcus Antonius who was given command of the entire eastern empire in an agreement with Octavian (the future Augustus), bequeathed the province along with other Roman possessions to Cleopatra in Egypt. While Herod remained in a position of authority in this period, he supported Antonius and Cleopatra, understandably so, but with Octavian's victory in the civil war at Actium in 31 BC, the situation changed irrevocably for the entire Roman world.

Herod went to Rhodes to meet the victorious Octavian, and through his political skill, and likely proven ability to stabilize the province, continued in his confirmation as ruler of Judaea. Herod was a brutal king, but this brutality helped keep an often instable political and religious environment on peaceful terms. Despite his brutality and apparent disinterest in traditional Jewish customs, Herod was careful not to infringe on these traditions for the people. He found it vital to his own survival to seek the approval of the masses, but the overwhelming reason for his success was the administration of force to suppress open opposition. The Jews, however, were limited self-rule as it related to their religious practices. The Sanhedrin was established under Herod as a sort of religious council to oversee the affairs of faith and religious law.

Herod's reign ended with his death in 4 BC and the now Roman emperor, Augustus, was faced with a difficult challenge. At first he appointed Herod's sons as rulers of smaller districts within the larger kingdom, but misrule forced him to change tactics. Unfortunately, Judaea offered little in the way of benefits to Rome, as it was poor in both agriculture and mineral wealth. However, its position on the eastern Mediterranean placed between the Roman provinces of Aegyptus and Syria, bordering the Nabataean territory of Arabia, and its unstable political history necessitated firm Roman control in order to facilitate security in the region. Augustus was forced to place Judaea under the direct control of Roman Prefects, who were in turn responsible to the Governor of Syria. Though no legions were directly assigned to the Praefect in Judaea's early formation, there were typically 3 nearby legions in Syria ready to respond to the numerous revolts of the small province.

Of the most famous of these Roman Prefects, was Pontius Pilate. His position in religious history is secured through the word of the Christian faith that saw its start in Judaea. The life of Pilate, and of Jesus Christ are both highly disputed by scholars, but its certain that Pilate was the Prefect between the years 26 and 36 AD. He was considered responsible for the death and crucifixion of Jesus though many have argued, including ancient contemporaries, that Pilate was innocent of the whole affair, and that blame rested on Caiphas the high priest and his conservative Jewish followers. Regardless, the rule of Pilate was one of difficult circumstances with several revolts put down by extreme force. Some of his actions regarding religious tradition alienated him from the Jewish population, and even the Emperor Tiberius was forced to intervene. Threatening Pilate if peaceful administration wasn't restored, Pilate's actions in the biblical stories may have been less out of tolerance toward Jesus, than fear of retribution from Rome if new revolts occurred. By the end of Pilate's term in 36 AD, however, violence and resistance to Roman rule was at dangerous levels. Attempts by Pilate to introduce statues of Tiberius and of Caligula to do the same with his own images, within Jewish temples had the people close to open revolt. Only the wise intervention of Claudius suppressed this and restored a sense of stability.

In 41 AD, Claudius appointed Herod Agrippa as king, restoring some sense of self rule to the Jewish state. Agrippa, though the grandson of Herod, was extremely popular among the people and his administration was able to alleviate tension. A devout traditionalist regarding religion, Agrippa upheld the all important Jewish customs and maintained some degree of independence from the authorities in Rome. Unfortunately, his death in 44 AD put Judaea back under direct governing by Roman Procurators for another 20 years, and dissatisfaction grew at an alarming rate.

By 66 AD, all out revolt finally broke out when the Procurator Gessius Florus apparently seized seventeen talents from the Jewish temple treasury. This act, paling in comparison to the religious strife that existed between Pagan Rome and the Jewish faith, was simply the final straw that broke the people's tolerance and armies were raised throughout the province. The Syrian governor Gallus attempted to invest Jerusalem but was soundly defeated, even losing the standard of XII Legion in the process. Religious zealots took hold of forts throughout the region, and ethnic purging took place all over. By 67 AD, however, the Roman general Vespasian arrived and things began to go well for the Romans. He invaded Palestine from Syria and stamped out resistance in the north with great speed. By the summer of 68 AD, only Jerusalem and the stronghold of Masada remained in opposition.

69 AD saw the year of the 4 emperors after the death of Nero, and Vespasian was one of the civil war candidates who took to the field to claim the throne. Successful in his goal, he sent his son Titus to finish the subjugation of Judaea. In 71 AD, Jerusalem was finally captured and its great temple destroyed, ending the resistance of the main body of the population. The great Jewish historian Josephus was also captured during the campaign and eventually became a confidant of the emperor. Vespasian and Titus returned to Rome to celebrate a triumph, but the fortress of Mesada and its militant occupants remained. By 74 AD, Lucius Flavius Silva, then the governor of Judaea ordered the legion X Fretensis to besiege the mountain fortress to put an end to the resistance. Building an incredible ramp to allow easy movement for siege engines and infantry, the Romans discovered that their efforts would not require a fight. They found the place abandoned, save for a woman and her children, who informed the Romans that the inhabitants had killed themselves rather than become slaves to the Romans.

Under the reign of Trajan, a large Jewish revolt broke out on Cyprus and in Cyrenaica on the African coast. Roman pagan temples were destroyed, and the conflict spread to the largest Jewish city in the empire, Alexandria Egypt. There, more Roman temples were destroyed along with the tomb of Pompey the Great. However, Trajan managed to prevent widespread revolt in the home province of Judaea and put down the trouble where it originated. His successor, Hadrian, found matters much more difficult, however, and had to deal with the last and most dangerous Jewish revolt of them all.

Hadrian was responsible for stopping Roman expansion and attempting to bring cultural uniformity throughout the empire. While it brought great success in most places, the religious differences in Judaea were too great. He rebuilt Jerusalem, first razed by Titus, as the Roman city of Aelia Capitolina and erected a great temple to Jupiter, rather than the Jewish God. Hadrian also forbade circumcision which the Jews viewed as a direct attack on their customs, and by 132 AD, revolt broke out once again. Under the leadership of Simon ben Kosiba, or Bar Kochba, this 3 year struggle would be the most brutal in the history of Roman rule and would turn into a clash involving ethnicity, faith and culture. Three full legions were needed to suppress this clash and extreme measures were taken to end resistance. By 135 AD, the Romans cornered Kosiba and his followers at Bethar where they starved to death and the war was over.

The Jewish people were severely punished by Hadrian. Prisoners were sold into slavery in massive numbers, and Judaism as a religion was under attack. He forbade the people to teach Mosaic Law or to own scrolls of any sort. Pagan temples and symbols were erected all over the province and even directly over old Jewish religious sites. The province itself was renamed Palestine; and of course, Jerusalem was already called Aelia Capitolina to stamp out any reference even to the Jewish names. The people were even forbidden from entering the temple complex to pray at their own sacred grounds, and the outer wall of the complex eventually came to be known as the 'wailing wall'.

Despite the severity of Hadrian's response, his tactics worked and the Jews fell into a long period of peaceful subjugation. Hadrian's successor, Antoninus Pius, restored many of the religious rites of the people, and that seemingly went a long way towards healing the wounds. Over the next 2 centuries Roman occupation of Palaestina-Judaea was a relatively uneventful period. The territory received some additional notoriety with the acceptance of Christianity by Constantine and that religion's continued growth throughout the 4th century. The province remained a relatively peaceful backwater of the empire even through the fall of the west in the 5th century. It remained a part of the Byzantine Empire until 638 AD, when the region was overrun by the Arab conquest.

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reply to post by pill


Thanks! Interesting reading.