Roman OOParts from the 2nd & 3rd century in Americas!

The Calixtlahuaca Head

In 1933, archaeologist José García Payón discovered a small head with "foreign" features in a burial at Calixtlahuaca, in the Toluca Valley about 60 km. west of Mexico City. The burial was under two undisturbed cemented floors that antedated the destruction of Calixtlahuaca by the Aztecs in AD 1510. Numerous cultural pieces found with the head were identified by García Payón as belonging to the Azteco-Matlatzinca period of 1476-1510. Cortez did not land at Veracruz until 1519, and did not conquer the Aztecs until 1521, so that central Mexico was still pre-Hispanic in 1510.

In 1961, the Austrian anthropologist Robert Heine-Geldern examined the head and declared that it derived "unquestionably" from the Hellenistic-Roman school of art. He found that its "distinctive Naturalism" suggested a date "around AD 200." Heine-Geldern was an expert on South-East Asia, but he reported in a communication quoted by García Payón (1961) that his view that it was Roman from circa AD 200 had been confirmed by Prof. Boehringer, then president of the German Archaeological Institute.

cntd... www.econ.ohio-state.edu...


Roman Coins from the Falls of the Ohio

In 1963, a construction engineer found a small hoard of coins while excavating the north bank of the Ohio River during construction of the Sherman Minton Bridge for Interstate Highway 64 at the Falls of the Ohio, from New Albany, Ind., to Louisville, Ky. The coins were grouped as though they had originally been in a leather pouch that had long since disintegrated.

The discover kept most of the hoard for himself, but gave two of the coins to another engineer on the project. In 1997, the second engineer's widow brought these two to Troy McCormick, then manager of the new Falls of the Ohio Museum in Clarksville, Ind., not far from the find site. She donated them to the museum, where they remain today.

McCormick identified the smaller coin from a guide to Roman coins as a bronze of Claudius II, from 268 A.D. The larger coin has been identified by both Mark Lehman, president of Ancient Coins for Education, Inc., and Rev. Stephen A. Knapp, Senior Pastor at St. John Lutheran Church, Forest Park, IL, and a specialist in late Roman bronze coinage, as a follis of Maximinus II, from 312 or 313 A.D., despite McCormick's original identification of the coin as a 235 A.D. bronze of Maximinus I.

cntd.... www.econ.ohio-state.edu...


could these be evidence of a pre-columbian cross-atlantic travels....

That's so cool! I've never heard anything about the Romans coming to North America. I'd heard about the Vikings, the Irish Monk, and the Chinese, but never anything like this.

I google'd and apparently there is some evidence that suggests it's possible.
About.com has a good outline of what has been found: paranormal.about.com...

"In 1886, the remains of a shipwreck was found in Galveston Bay, Texas. Its construction is typically Roman." Maybe they got stranded and ditched their coins.

The only other explanation I can come up with is that maybe it was left behind by early settlers, but even at that time those coins would be considered a treasure. I can't picture them ditching something like that.

There's also the Temple of Isis in the Grand Canyon that was excavated back in 1909 and was said to contain Roman, Greek and Egyptian weapons and armor.

Here's some links

www.spiritofmaat.com...

www.spiritofmaat.com...

And there are the 'coc aine mummies' as well.
Traces of coc aine and nicotine are found in several Egyptian mummies, suggesting transatlantic contact in ancient times (derivates from plants originated in America).
The evidence is hard to ignore, the contra arguments are solely based on the improbability (read disbelief) of pre-Columbian contact.

The possibility of the compounds being byproducts of decomposition is shown to be without precedent and highly unlikely. The possibility that the researchers made evaluations from faked mummies of recent drug users is shown to be highly unlikely in almost all cases. Several additional cases of identified American drugs in mummies are discussed.

Additionally, it is shown that significant evidence exists for contact with the Americas in pre-Columbian times. It is determined that the original findings are supported by substantial evidence despite the initial criticisms.

www.faculty.ucr.edu...

The Phoenicians are also believed to have made trans-oceanic travels.
news.softpedia.com...
phoenicia.org...

And the Chinese:
www.livescience.com...

And Polynesians:
www.pnas.org...

I once wread some where about some native americans bieng rescued from a sinking boat off the coast of Germany hundreds of years ago but I am not sure if it was pre Columbus.

reply to post by mcrom901

could these be evidence of a pre-columbian cross-atlantic travels....

The coins are only evidence that a woman owned them in 1997. The chain of evidence appears to begin and end with her claim that a guy, who's name she's forgotten, found a horde of coins in 1963.

The 'Roman head' is interesting, but undermined by the inclusion of the coins article. Hopefully Byrd can offer more insight into the origins and dates of the head?

Hristov supports the idea that Romans 'drifted' to the Americas between the 5th Century BC and AD 4th. He includes Egyptian and Phoenician artefacts found near Tenerife to support the claim...I'd suggest trade routes are a more likely explanation for their presence than oceanic voyages.

L’Anse aux Meadows (~1000AD) is the best evidence of pre-Colombian voyages to the Americas.

Let's not forget the biggest factor here, chance (or luck, or in this case, bad luck!).

The Phoenicians were the early masters of the sea, as far as the Mediterranean is concerned. The extent of their travels is not fully documented but there are scattered indications that they ventured outside the Mediterranean (the circumnavigation of Africa for an Egyptian Pharaoh comes to mind) for trade and exploration.

The Greeks "succeeded" them and in many cases followed the same routes (Pytheas discovering Island in the early 3rd century BC is one case), perhaps even extended their reach, especially northwards.

Then the Romans came and undertook the role of head hogs in things naval. They traded where the Phoenicians and Greeks had, before them, and probably explored some more.

Now, the part where it may get interesting. The sea is a harsh mistress and can play wicked games to sailors (throw them off course, strand them on shallows, sink them). With the amount of ships sailing in the Atlantic in Roman days, it is not far-fetched to assume at least one ship was thrown so much off course that it reached the Americas, with much of the crew alive and kicking. This doesn't mean a permanent settlement, at least not a planned one, or regular contact but could explain some of the out of place findings.

Cocaine and tobacco on the other hand could indicate either the presence of these plants somewhere in the Old World, a presence that has since ceased, or the opposite direction in sea travels (although it is harder to explain these "goods" on a ship if trade is not involved).

i personally think that people where able to travel across the atlantic before most people think they could have. but something like a few coins is no direct evidence. I have a jade figure from china, but it doesn't mean that chinese where ever in my town. people keep odd things. they coins were probably a memento.. the head now thats cool.

Originally posted by DemonSpeedN
There's also the Temple of Isis in the Grand Canyon that was excavated back in 1909 and was said to contain Roman, Greek and Egyptian weapons and armor.

Here's some links

www.spiritofmaat.com...

www.spiritofmaat.com...

The Smithsonian says that they have no record of a Prof. Jordan. You can take that as proof of a coverup or accept it at face value. The reporter does not at any time give a logical connection between Egypt and the cave. In fact the article specifically says they found "Another passageway [that] leads to granaries such as are found in the oriental temples." File this under science fiction until proven otherwise.

Originally posted by DemonSpeedN
There's also the Temple of Isis in the Grand Canyon that was excavated back in 1909 and was said to contain Roman, Greek and Egyptian weapons and armor.

Here's some links

www.spiritofmaat.com...

www.spiritofmaat.com...

There is no reference in the article to a Temple of Isis.

Originally posted by JewelFlip
That's so cool! I've never heard anything about the Romans coming to North America. I'd heard about the Vikings, the Irish Monk, and the Chinese, but never anything like this.

I google'd and apparently there is some evidence that suggests it's possible.
About.com has a good outline of what has been found: paranormal.about.com...

"In 1886, the remains of a shipwreck was found in Galveston Bay, Texas. Its construction is typically Roman." Maybe they got stranded and ditched their coins.

The only other explanation I can come up with is that maybe it was left behind by early settlers, but even at that time those coins would be considered a treasure. I can't picture them ditching something like that.

I googled it also and came up with this,

"It appears to be a claim made by one Professor V. Belfiglio (of Texas Womans University) about a wreck discovered in 1886. The wreck is not extent. Prof. Belifiglio only read about the wreck in an 1886 issue of The Galveston Daily News:

(Extracts from the 1886 story published in the 1993 Dallas Morning News Story follow, that described the discovery of a wrecked ship of unusual design.)

"Her stern . . . is put together in such a manner as to contradict any reasonable supposition that she was a vessel fashioned even as early as the sixteenth centry,' the paper reported....It is composed of the most massive and solid oak, fully six or seven inches in thickness, and the pieces laid crosswise over each other, secured with huge iron spikes . . . about fifteen feet in width"

The problem is the Romans and Greeks, used a combination of mortise-and-tenon construction (primarily) and bronze or copper nails or spikes when needed (or lead for lining the ships hull in contrast to, the later 'coppering'), not iron, and not construction of the type described."

credi to conon394, www.twcenter.net...