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Originally posted by catwhoknows
Maybe the secret is staying out of warfare? Every country which engages in warfare commits crimes against humanity, but Switzerland does not.
Except for the Swiss banks which conceal the multi-millions of evil-doers. And thereby make a fortune themselves.
So, Switzerland is not so pure after all.
Originally posted by dontreally
I found this interesting because the swiss have always exempt from war. Why?
Who knows. But its strange that any nation would be given immunity from being conquered, by the Nazis for instance.
And than i also thought, isnt it strange that the vatican has swiss guards for security? whats the significance of the swiss and switzerland that they deserve such prestige??
Than i looked up Switzerland and amazingly i discovered that switzerland is broken up into 26 cantors. 26 is the gematria of G-ds essential name, and would correspond perfectly to Jungs statement that Switzerland is the heart of europe and 4 rivers surround switerland. In the same way, YHVH is the essential reality before he issues fortb (rivers) and gives expression to create his universe.
Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
Besides they hardly stay out of warfare. Every one of the Allies had a spy network in situ, that was why Hitler kept throwing planes at them, they were breaking the terms of neutrality.
Originally posted by NichirasuKenshin
As I wrote in an earlier post Hitler - like on so many other subjects - talked like he really wanted to invade Switzerland but when time came to decide about it he hesitated and eventually gave all forces free for the eastern theatre, a move that saved the eastern front from completely collapsing as early as 1942.
Originally posted by CIAGypsy
I only have a second to post before I head out the door...but I had to post. Again, you make a lot of assumptions about what I know or don't know. You seem to keep making this insinuation that I don't know Hebrew or haven't studied other texts (such as Talmud, etc...). I don't know why you feel the compulsion to make these statements when you have NO IDEA whether they are true or not unless you have made ASSUMPTIONS. However, they would be FALSE assumptions.
I'm hoping to take a half day off of work tomorrow and hope to finally have time to fully respond to your ridiculous and pompous statements.
Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
reply to post by dontreally
I really like you dontreally, love the enthusiasm, but your needle is stuck.
Sort it out.
Originally posted by dontreally
Ive never heard that metaphor before...
Originally posted by dontreally
In anycase, i was simply parotting an insight i learned from a learned Torah scholar.
Originally posted by dontreally
I find it objective, and if you dont find it objective, id like to know on what complicated grounds you think that.
Originally posted by dontreally
Kabbalah posits that all reality is based on a divine pattern - the 10 sefirot. EVERY reality we experience is an expression of this structure. Hermetic philosophy posits the same idea, albeit less explicit. "as above, so below". This is what ritual is based on. The physical is a container, reflection of the spiritual content it represents.
Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
Originally posted by dontreally
Ive never heard that metaphor before...
Most likely because of your youth.
Originally posted by dontreally
In anycase, i was simply parotting an insight i learned from a learned Torah scholar.
Which is probably why I couldn't follow...it all sounded very complicated and I found myself skimming towards the end. I think I'm interested, but you haven't quite managed to hook me.
Originally posted by dontreally
I find it objective, and if you dont find it objective, id like to know on what complicated grounds you think that.
I don't understand it, I can't say anything about it. Not one thing, it is completely foreign to me, I get the same repellence of understanding that I get when I see mathematical equations. Alot of religious texts do that for me, I have to work my way around them in other ways.
Originally posted by dontreally
Kabbalah posits that all reality is based on a divine pattern - the 10 sefirot. EVERY reality we experience is an expression of this structure. Hermetic philosophy posits the same idea, albeit less explicit. "as above, so below". This is what ritual is based on. The physical is a container, reflection of the spiritual content it represents.
Hmmm...it is suitably molecular in structure I suppose. I don't know, again you're talking religious-ese and I don't understand that language. I don't have any rituals as such, if I'm forced to, I may, if I can really be bothered, try and relax but it is not in my nature really. The closest I come to ritual is using the I Ching, and that is when I make an effort to relax, but that is all any ritual should be, getting cosy enough to let your mind focus. But I do think that you are right about the last bit, though I'm not entirely sure still about the spiritual aspect. I'm more of a real ale girl, which is how I get to dance with Dionysus. He speaks my language you see.edit on 9-10-2010 by KilgoreTrout because: Grammar...spelling...not functioning on all cyclinders
Originally posted by dontreally
Thats the whole thing.
I was reading an interesting article a few days back comparing the dancing of David To Dionysus.
The former is done within a system of order, and the latter in Disorder - a complete contempt for any order, bounds, limitations.
So its no surprise you fail to appreciate the order kabbalah posits. In you very being you seek the dioysian experience and therefore fail to see the obvious order the knowledge of the sefirot seeks to reveal.
Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
Originally posted by dontreally
Thats the whole thing.
I was reading an interesting article a few days back comparing the dancing of David To Dionysus.
The former is done within a system of order, and the latter in Disorder - a complete contempt for any order, bounds, limitations.
So its no surprise you fail to appreciate the order kabbalah posits. In you very being you seek the dioysian experience and therefore fail to see the obvious order the knowledge of the sefirot seeks to reveal.
No, I don't do homogeny, only alchemy.
I should perhaps have pointed out that I don't have any feeling of soul and don't seek one. But I do have a sense of connectivity, and also of holding onto something too tightly. These two things, particularly, I find create a physical conflict within me, but only at certain times. I use Dionysus figuratively. Jung was helpful, but only in the clarity of his own self-exploration. Psycho-analysis should be guided only by someone who has first been thoroughly 'purged' themselves, both Jung and Freud projected onto their patients and the masses, because they hadn't. I find my answers in lots of different places. Dionysus is just a tool I use to enter into the creative aspect that allows me to communicate them.edit on 9-10-2010 by KilgoreTrout because: To explain a bit more.
Originally posted by dontreally
Thats exactly what i meant by mentioning Dionysus.
They merely represent a paradigm. Dionysus the greek "god" and god in every sense of the term. As Jung mentions, archetypes, dionysus being a symbol for a particular kind, possess an actual numinosity and individuality. its indivuduality is in the specfici nature it manifests. So, the 'fool' archetype, dionysus, Bachuss Krishna etc, symbolize a sort of 'connectivity' as you described it. Its the element which connects you to a particular psychological state. This numinous structure is strengthened on the basis of a psychic vitality that Human beinga provide for it. The more attention its given, the more individuality and 'specialness' its accorded, and the more it manifests a particular 'magical' quality to the person who relates with it.
Originally posted by dontreally
David symbolizes frenetic joy within the confines of a system of order. David does not dance as Dionysus does, that is, according to a system of disorder, boundlessness, and essentially indulgence in the physical appetities. Dionysus is crazed - out of control, of his wits. David is divinely inspired where his pure joy in the source which constantly creates him is expressed in the deepest way - the body, which has hitherto obstructed the expression of his spiritual soul, is now used as the very vehicle to reveal his soul. The body dances for the sake of the self, the soul.
Originally posted by dontreally
you can ascribe any language you want to the spirit. Call it mind, psyche, mental the fact that it exists as something OTHER than the physical indicates it being a completely different dimension. The mind exists, and because this connection, this mindfulness reveals and opens man up to a more sacred relationship with this feeling of wholeness, this higher 'self' which transcends his attitudes, beliefs that man decides to speak of it in a sacred manner.
The major difference between David and Dionysus, is that one appreciates the value and godliness of Order, whereas the other is nihilistic, emotionally inflamed and most comfortable in a state of disorder.
Originally posted by dontreally
This is why Jews worshipped the creator - the pre cause of all reality, sum total of human experience and sum total of all we sense to exist. But also beyond this aswell. It a power which relates to mankind in a personal way because of his unique role in creation. Man was created last - on the 6th day. This indicates that man was the PURPOSE of creation. Everything else had to be prepared, world, waters, trees, plants, animals before G-d could place man in the garden (the physical world). The entire Jewish spiritual tradition, like other religions, employ metaphor throughout. Everytime you come by a mention of an apple, or a tree, or anything you see, its main meaning is not in the item itself, but in the concept which imbues that item with existence. As i said earlier, the physical is merely an expression, representation, reflection of the spiritual content which enlivens it. So the Torah speaks in the most deep possible way. Jews consider their relationship to the world as very sacred. As do many Easterners, and others who are deeply involved at a level of holiness, between themselves and the reality around them.
Originally posted by dontreally
BTW - you have a soul. Your self is your soul. Its that which you turn to when you sleep, and that which you get to know when you die.
Originally posted by dontreally
As you can see, the creator placed morality on a pedistal for a reason. Its the essential purpose, Test for our lives. We live in this world, tested with moral choices - tested with what we value. Are we wise? will we see the obvious signs that negatvie behavior towards others and self invariably ends up in suffering? Kabbalah teaches that in the next world the soul experiences the true range of his physical decisions in life - in action, speech and thought. Those decisions that were in concord with the essential nature of the soul - which is wholistic, would reveals its source. One who acknowledges his source therefore experiences his source. This physical body obstructs the experience of it. The more spiritually evolved you are, the deeper the appreciation. But the real joy comes when you return to a pure spiritual existence.
Originally posted by dontreally
Think of it this way. Kabbalah explains that physical reality and spiritual reality are reflected in mans being. The highest levels down to the lowest. The highest level man can know is called Keter. Keter means crown - and just as a crown is on top of the head, outside the body, so to WILL - the power to choose, is above mans ability to comprhend (outside his head - encompassing like a crown). Beyond WILL there is nothing else. But, kabbalah knows there is one sublte level before desire, and thats pleasure. We act, because we ultimately desire pleasure. But, pleasure is that secret essence from which desire swells from. It might sound cyclical but you can see that the former is the cause of the latter.
Originally posted by dontreally
So, just as pleasure and desire precede consciousness, so to does G-ds pleasure and desire, or understood differently, the awareness of unity between parts, namely, man who is made in microcosm of a greater order.
Originally posted by dontreally
This is a difficult concept to explain, but easy to undertsand when experienced. Pleasure is singular and simple. Likewise, the pure unity of reality. This awareness of pure unity results in a natural pleasure in it. Therefore, actions, speech and thought which reflected this awarness in life are experienced as extravagantly pleasureful for the soul when its without a body. It is pure heaven. The kabbalists also discuss of two levels of this 'heaven experience' One is more abstract whereas the other is associated with physicality, that is, borrows physicality to express this pleasure. This is often referred to as an astral realm. There is also hell. action, speech and thought (the 3 garments of the souls expression) which reflected a disunity, produces a feeling of profound guilt, shame and confusion for the soul. It is being bombarded, in a way more chaotic and painful than anything understood in this life by the images of its own creation. The negative forces, accuse, and accuse by inflicting punishments according to the nature of the deed they committed.
Originally posted by dontreally
So. We live in this lowest world, physicality, whereas our minds are united with the totality of creation. When man thinks thusly physicality serves absolutely no impediment to him. Whereas the man made gods, namely, these archetypes, spiritual reality generated by mans devising, are not REAL - in that they are not the product of G-ds desire, but of mans. Man create his own world, just as G-d is able to, and man dwells in them, as the people of babel built a tower to fight G-d. They too the midrash describes were a loving, caring people who performed good deeds. If thats that case, why was G-d offended? Because they did good to each other, but NOT to their source, their creator. They made him irrelevant and like the virgin birth of christianity suggests, considered themselves separate and unaffected by the creators will. They like those today believe the physical, to be separate. There are two powers, masculine and feminine, one the source, abstract, spiritual, the other passive, condensed, physical. In the mystical experience, G-d is present in the spiritual states one experiences (and in pagan thought G-d is generally accorded different names/titles according to the experience - this being polytheism) and the divine mother beng the nothingness, void, the 'virgin mother' who is unaffected, never 'cohabitting' with the father, but completely separate. This chaos and void gives birth to the 'self', born by the enlightened awareness of spiritual totality, but completely subservient to the mother, Mary (hebrew for bitter - in fact, Mari would mean MY bitterness-. As in the evil within me) These two contrary states produce Jesus - Yeshu "salvation" who is called christos (as dionysus was in greece) who involves within him the sum total of experiential reality. He therefore 'redeems' the world. He allows man to worship both parts of himself, the masculine and feminine.
Originally posted by dontreally
This is why gnostic christians believe Jesus learned all he did in Egypt, and eventually went eastward to babylon, persia and India...
Conversely, the bad guy in this mythology are the Pharisee, being used here as moses is in the Koran as a symbol for what Freud called the superego. The 'conscience'. The conscience is deemed a murder of the soul, the self..
See what christianity is really talking about? Its definitely and assuredly is not Jewish, but pagan.
This is just a little bit of this idea. Its deep and its entirely logical.edit on 9-10-2010 by dontreally because: (no reason given)
You are being very presumptious. Jung was wrong. In the case of what Dionysus is to me, that is. He doesn't make feel special, he gives me someone to talk to, I address him and I do all that I do for him. He doesn't need to talk to me, and seldom does. Have you read the Song of Songs? I love the Song of Songs! The Song of Songs, to me, and I am perfectly allowed to have my own opinion on this, is the Sun and the Moon talking of their shared love, Earth and how they search for the traces of one another, forever chasing the other, never quite catching. Dionysus is what brings us together. Literally.
In the literal sense, Dionysus is natural order. He is a map in many ways and also a description of creation, and us, or one side at least. The other day at work, I was out in the countryside, and I used part of his map. It took me to magic mushrooms, Psilocybe, I didn't pick them I hasten to add, I just wanted to know if the map worked and it did. The mushrooms I found won't flourish, but they have to get in our way for us to see them, and allow them to find a place to prosper, the places where there is poop. Dionysus wears Ivy around his head, hedera helix, to twist and turn, hence the assumption of a dervish, the dancing wasn't frenzied, later as Bacchus he was given cloven hooves, and I would presume that before Alexander made him in his own image, he was actually represented by a deer or some other animal form. Uric acid is one of the few mediums that spores can be carried in. As Bacchus the fungal emphasis was Yeast, which is why he is paired off with Demetre on Knossos, she bringing Agriculture, him Wine. And then they both get completely mixed up with Jesus...and the rest is history, or lack thereof. We wash our feet before Temple because we must ensure that we don't carry spores into the Bakery, yeast this time, once the holy spirit, 'yeast' has been captured, they didn't want Dionysus to get in. The Wine yeast though is a different matter, that is only semi domesticated.
Ah but which one is which? And when?
We grew out of the garden like everything else. I haven't read the Torah, just the Old Testament, and I am sure it sounds great in Hebrew, but it is a bunch of really ugly stories in my language. Except the Song of Songs. That is beautiful. The Jews were the first, as far as I can interpret, to pop their god in a box and carry it before them into battle. They are the pastorialist afterall, they invented sheep.
As far as 'laws' go, I find the Four Noble Truths, with a little help when needed from the Eight-Fold Path, to provide all the moral guidance I need. I am able, with that as my spine, so to speak, to do as I wilt. But it is probably the same
Again, another of Dionysus's forms. Dionysus is also the twice born, born once, then sown back into Zeus. His thigh, but we're talking testes either way. A woman is born mature, as in her eggs are already mature, but the vessel needs further growth in order to ensure that it recieves the best seed, that's what our brain is for if only we had the sense to use it, anyway, look at the gametes and gamete. Males are essentially two lifeforms until they reach adulthood and fuse. Dionysus in his later incarnation, helps us to bring forth our less inhibited self.
I'm not in any shape or form a Buddhist, and could incidently never been one, I love to look at yellow but I always feel absolutely miserable if I am made to wear it...anyway...I do like the way they talk, 'There is no path to happiness, happiness is the path.' I agree with you entirely, there is nothing more burdensome to a persons being that guilt, shame and confusion, that is why I believe in psychotherapy, confession, ranting, shouting screaming and just getting those problems off your chest and out into the open where they can be dealt with. The negative force can only be faced if it is brought out into the open to be vanquished.
The Virgin Birth or Immaculate Conception, is how life works. One cell divides and becomes two daughter cells. I have only recently started address this issue and it is buried very deep. I have found China seems to have some traces of it in their story telling that make more sense, especially given that the value of 1 in Chinese mathematics is 3. That's a big clue. But it naturally means that the Universe has a twin. Most likely equal and opposite. And with a primordial force of some kind to keep things going round.
Yup! But so we're the Jews, before they were domesticated.
Originally posted by dontreally
lol. I can appreciate your view on the subject. Afterall, were all allowed to make our own decisions and live with them. Thats the power of free will that the creator has imbued us with. I have read the song of songs. I read the Tanakh 3 hours a day, apart of my daily regiment. Ive read song of songs plenty of times.
Originally posted by dontreally
The ACTUAL meaning, although your free to ascribe your own meaning to it, is an amorous description of the union between the masculine and feminine forces. Or, more specifically, THE masculine force, G-d, creator and sustainer of all reality, and his indwelling presence, which can only be united with him when mankind unites to serve him. This indwelling presence is termed "shekina" lit. to indwell.
Originally posted by dontreally
Whereas pagans speak of the universal man - what kabbalah calls Adam kadmon, they regard as the masculine. Of course they acknowledge an infinite source, creator. But hes irrelevant, not apart of creation. He is gone. We are considered the actors in his divine drama - and this is all the attention he gets. Anyways, physicality, matter, is considered the feminine, and this divine man the masculine. This is the interplay you describe. The sun, moon. etc. But kabbalah goes a step into the beyond.
Originally posted by dontreally
We START at the level of adam kadmon, the incepience of creation, and its this which is the feminine, and the masculine is the ineffable source, the Ayin Sof, which chooses to reveal his transcendent level to man through the divine name YHVH. Note that the ein sof and YHVH are not the same. YHVH is like a specific window that G-d created to look out at his creation. No created thing can connect with the creator, without being completely sublimated and absorbed by it.
Originally posted by dontreally
This relationship between the shekina and the creator is the mystical meaning behind Solomons Beautiful song of songs.
Originally posted by dontreally
Im acquainted with the Greek misappropriation of this story. The mistake the sexual language as meaning something course, raw and physically sexual. True. Solomon sdid not shy away from the reality that the union between opposites is reflected in the human act of sex, and its described that way cause it really is a beautiful experience. But, just as only two parties are involed, it should always stay that way. No other partners. The level being cultivated between man and women is eternal. One partner - which in itself is meant to interweave the souls of both parties. You cant mantain that connection if your sleeping with other people. So This is just to get away from the conventional greek view of sexual liberality. Every word spoken by solomon and every description made of the sexual act actually alludes to particular levels within the divine 'man'. The shekina, the indwelling presence, the created reality, the 'univeral self' is united with the infinite. Her breasts refer to a specific level in the stature of the divine man. Lurianic kabbalah contains the secret to this idea.
Originally posted by dontreally
Interesting. Didnt know greek myth was so alchemical. And Dionysus isnt quite the natural order. Not in how euripides describes it in the bacchae.
Originally posted by dontreally
Dionysos is ANTI order. Nature is full of order. For instance, the disintictions between male and female. How do you resolve the homosexual strain than involved in the worship of dionysus?
Originally posted by dontreally
When is the dancing of dionysus experienced as opposed to David? Well. When you order matters in ways that Judaism does. For instance, if your interested in a forgeign experience, check out chassidic dancing. A major feature of chassidic dancing is dance circles. The circle signifies simplicity and equality between parts. This is what Judaism is about. Everyone is held by the same standards, laws of conduct - the same Torah. Chassidic dancing is very enthusiastic and energetic, and you can really see the holy joy which these people experience in connecting to G-d through dance. Also, Jewish dancing is supplemented by wine; yet another item connecting it to the cult of dionysus. But, there is a limit to drinking, whereas in Dionysian festivals the whole point is to go BEYOND limits, constraints, social norms - this is how you engage the body, or the 'spirit' of the body.
Originally posted by dontreally
The ark of the covenant is actually a pretty deep idea. The world is usually stylized as a cube. 3 dimensional reality is basically made up of 12 lines. The cube thus symbolizes reality. The 12 lines are imagined as being unified by a center point, which unites its 12 parts (these 12 also correspond to the 12 constellations). 13 is the gematria of the Hebrew word for 1. This is also the gematria of Love - Ahava. Is this not very mystical? Love is the feeling of oneness. Love is the unification of parts.
Originally posted by dontreally
I cant figure out why people quote Aleister Crowley, nietszche. These were men who died mentally broken. Nietszche went insane, and crowley became addicted to heroin. These are not role models. I dont have a problem persay with Buddhisms 4 noble truths or the 8 fold path. But, there is one fundamental porlbem to it. It suggests that man is capable of forming his own morals truths. This in essence tolerates a moral relativity. Thus, without an objective moral code, a law by which all people are subject to live by, you'll have one person who thinks one way, another who thinks in a completely contradictive way. What if my morality conflicts with yours. How do we resolve this moral conundrum now? This discrepenancy in itself reveals the inherent human reliance on a homogenous moral code. In Judaism theyre called the 7 laws of Noah.
Originally posted by dontreally
In the beginning, G-d wanted man to know him through nature. But since man fell, his mind fell into a world of duality, the apple of the tree of good and evil became internalized. Keep in mind that adam represents every-man. Hes the universal mind. This universal conscious FELL. Do you know what that means? It means that any part within the whole is subject to the overall condition of the whole. The whole is fragemented, riddled with falsehood, confusions, doubt. This is a world, a reality, which has spawned with the fall of man and appears to be reaching it climax. So. No mystic can ever reach a state of complete moral certainity. Its simpyl impossible. Therefore, were subject to a law - the 10 commandments being a good example of it, and if you dont respect this objective law which most human beings have been taught, than your held liable. You have the knowledge.
Originally posted by dontreally
funny that you mention the thigh. Jacob the kabbalists note was the rectification of Adam, which is why he was granted the privelege of generated the Jewish people, the 12 tribes(which came to repair the cosmos. The universal man, jacob, spliced into 12 parts, the 12 aspects of the lower spiritual worlds). Jacob fought Esaus angel, which, the sages note, was Samael - or satan. Samael struck Jacob in his thigh, his left thigh and left him permanently injured. The left thight kabbalistically refers to Hod. Hod means 'acknowledgement'. The lower triad of Netzach, Hod, and Yesod are OUTER focused spiritual powers. They bring the level of Chesed, Gevurah, Tiferet out to the external world and its reality. Netzach seeks to dominate the outer world. This is why some commentators refer to the right thigh as being the injured thigh. People seek to DOMINATE others. This is where mans spiritual problem lies. But the root cause of this power to seek to dominate is a lack of awareness, knowledge and SENSITIVITY to other people. This is hod. Instead of wanting to dominate, Hod seeks to empathize/sympathize with others.. Thus, people seek to dominate because people lack a fundamental sensitivity to the spiritual reality of their fellow spiritual brothers and sisters (after all, were all from the same source, the same pool of consciousness. How can we betray this truth and hurt one another? This is why evil people go to hell. Punishment for having injured an aspect of their own SELF. As corny as it sounds, in truth we are all one.). So. The thigh being referred to here in dionysus definitely has sexual undertones. But the REAL idea is one that is the ESSENCE of the worship of Dionysus. Domination. Dionysus seeks to dominate all limitations, boundaries, rules. Its a pure release of the will to dominate. That is the ESSENCE of dionysian consciousness. And Zeus? Is there a difference between Dionysus and Jesus? Jesus is the son of G-d, Dionysus the thigh of Zeus? Theres a very deep connection here. Zeus is the Greek representation of the Jewish G-d (hence a temple to jupiter was erected after the 2nd temple was destroyed). Dionysus being sown into his father Zeus' thigh signifies an integration and emphasis of a spiritual concept within the fabric of the universe. The concept is the human desire to dominate, SPECIFICALLY against G-d.
Originally posted by dontreally
I think we have to be careful HOW we talk about our problems. Just ranting and imagining that thats psychologically helpful has already been proven in clinical tests to be a false therapeutic method. ranting, yelling, is not healthy. Sure, its let off 'steam', but it also perpetuates the very problem. That is not TRANSMUTING the problem, but recycling it, i feel tense, im gonna yell, give expression to this tension, but the fundamental spiritual issue has not been dealt with. Kabbalistic approach to healing (it should be noted that Jung, Freud, Adler and many others heavily borrowed from the lurianic kabbalah) spiritual pains is through prayer, among other things. The most beneficial way to change yourself is to know deep down that your source of being wants your success in this positive change of self. So, its good to talk about problems when theyre eating at you. How you talk about then should be in a level headed and relaxed way. It should be a 'pouring your heart out' and not a rant. Doing this can often weaken the very reality that while within you, had control, but now that its influence has been exposed, almost as if loses its momentum.
Originally posted by dontreally
Kabbalah talks about a fundamental trinity aswell. Thesis, Antithesis and Synthesis. This is the most basic differentiation of reality we can make. Theres something, theres it opposite, and theres some aspect which mediates the two. But the trinity is only relevant from OUR perspective. Kabbalah and Judaism says theres an ineffable source. Hence the quintessential Jewish expression of faith is "hear oh israel, G-d is our G-d, G-d is one".
Originally posted by dontreally
Its very interesting analyzing all the many similarities between the worlds pagan religions. Emphasis on certain numbers is where you tend to find it. 8 is probably the most mentioned. 8 fold path, 8 beatitudes, the 8 sectioned circle at St peters basilica, with an egyptian obelisk in the center. Apollos special number was 8, and echoing a popular eastern idea, his motto was 'moderation in everything'.
Originally posted by dontreally
It always entertains me when people imagine that the original israelites were pagan. No. Abraham showed the world that spirituality didnt have to be mutually exclusive as the monks, nuns and leaders taught. The social leaders, the aristocrats shares a fundamental spiritual similarity with the monks and nuns. They both believed that Soul and matter were irreconcilable. In fact, they had to be kept apart at all costs. This is what the monks accomplished by being ascetics. The aristocrats accomplished in another way.
Originally posted by dontreally
Lavan is the paradigm of this in the Torah. His very name "white" implies self righteous surety. People like Lavan separate the soul and spirit by relinquishing the body to the physical, the source of mans lower egocentric side, while the soul is somewhere else. look at lavans actions in the bible. he manipulated Jacob throughout. Read paradise lost. In book 3 towards the end theres a very interesting description of how satan uses subterfuge and deception, a reality unappreciated by those who seek unity, and thus simplicity to get what he wants(Lying is the paradigm of separating the inner from the outer. Thus, all politicians are liars) He thus feigns sincerity towards Uriel in a desire to get knowledge of mankinds location.
Originally posted by dontreally
He is the paradigmatic worshipper of Samael, Satan, Lucifer, Hermes. What Jung termed 'the shadow' or the dark god. This is why Jacob went and studied with Shem and Eber. Shem and Eber were mystics of the Buddhist inclination. Nimrod didnt seek to kill them as he did Abraham (by throwing him in a furnace) because monastics dont threaten the soverign rule of the aristocrats (i have said in earlier psots that our world is ruled by aristocrats - ancestors of the same ones in abrahams generation. They like interbreeding) because monastic pose no threats. "They want to go off to a mountain to meditate? Go ahead. Ill leave you to it. Just dont question my theory of society". Shem and Eber thus taught Jacob a very important lesson. Non Jewish mysticism seeks to separate the worlds of matter and spirit. He went there and learned the wisdom of it. In fact, while there, For 14 years he never slept - as an extreme form of ascetic practice.
Originally posted by dontreally
So, Judaism is about connecting spirit and matter. Mitzvot, commandments, are about this. mitzvot are only relevant to the physical world. Its this world which Judaism seeks to spiritualize, and its because of this noble intention that the Jews have sufferred so much throughout history. The Western aristocrats absolutely revile them. find them completely repugant.
Originally posted by dontreally
Look at history. 3000 thousand years extermination attempts have been made against the Jews!.
Originally posted by dontreally
Nazi Germany were the last ones to attempt it and if you know anything about world war 2 politics you would know that the Americans, British, french and the governments of all european regimes which had Jewish population completely complied with the "nazi" agenda.
Originally posted by dontreally
most amazingly was the role of the vatican, the inheritor of Rome and purveyor of evil in our world. Eugene pacelli later on Pope Pius XII (he ascended to this role the very day WWII started. How coincidental) was the one who penned the 1917 new papal canon which created a top down church heirarchy which gave full powers to the pope. This ended the collegiality between bishops that had existed up to that point in the catholic church.
Originally posted by dontreally
This development in addition to his organizing the papal concordant of 1933 with Hitler - which disbanded the catholic center party, gave full ability to the Nazis to gain the political power they were seeking. And when all was set and in place, The pope never utterred a word throuhout the war. Not with the Jews in Germany and Europe, despite the many protests and calls from ambassadors, critics, and diplomats to denounce the Nazi persecution of Jews. Didnt utter a peep. It took 4 grueling years, millions of Jews killed, before pius made a passing ambiguous statement in one of his encyclicals about the suffering of the "people" in Germany. No mention of Jews, or a call to help them. Germany was HALF catholic. imagine what kind of political power Germanies catholics could have exercized if the pope said something.
Originally posted by dontreally
Sorry for getting off topic. Theres a deep reason behind antimsemitism, and it certainly isnt the fault of the Jews. Its a difference of social theory you could say.
Originally posted by dontreally
The leaders of our world are preparing us to accept a gnostic philosophy by separating our very selves. Soul from body. This is the 21st century schizoid man in king crimson (and sampled by kanye west today). This is the mold from which man will embrace the philosophical tenets of 'the perennially philosophy' as Huxley called it. This is manipulation in the most grandest imaginable way.
Originally posted by dontreally
So, before people are even given an ability to choose for themselves what they want, they are being severely handicapped by having both sides of them, the spiritual, contemplative, and the sensual clicked at the same time. Talk about ambivalence. The only way to 'organize' this ambivalence is through recognizing the spirituality posited and championed by people like CG Jung.
Also, in what way did you consider Jung wrong?
Originally posted by dontreally
In the beginning, G-d wanted man to know him through nature. But since man fell, his mind fell into a world of duality, the apple of the tree of good and evil became internalized. Keep in mind that adam represents every-man. Hes the universal mind. This universal conscious FELL. Do you know what that means? It means that any part within the whole is subject to the overall condition of the whole. The whole is fragemented, riddled with falsehood, confusions, doubt. This is a world, a reality, which has spawned with the fall of man and appears to be reaching it climax. So. No mystic can ever reach a state of complete moral certainity. Its simpyl impossible. Therefore, were subject to a law - the 10 commandments being a good example of it, and if you dont respect this objective law which most human beings have been taught, than your held liable. You have the knowledge.
Originally posted by dontreally
funny that you mention the thigh. Jacob the kabbalists note was the rectification of Adam, which is why he was granted the privelege of generated the Jewish people, the 12 tribes(which came to repair the cosmos. The universal man, jacob, spliced into 12 parts, the 12 aspects of the lower spiritual worlds). Jacob fought Esaus angel, which, the sages note, was Samael - or satan. Samael struck Jacob in his thigh, his left thigh and left him permanently injured. The left thight kabbalistically refers to Hod. Hod means 'acknowledgement'. The lower triad of Netzach, Hod, and Yesod are OUTER focused spiritual powers. They bring the level of Chesed, Gevurah, Tiferet out to the external world and its reality. Netzach seeks to dominate the outer world. This is why some commentators refer to the right thigh as being the injured thigh. People seek to DOMINATE others. This is where mans spiritual problem lies. But the root cause of this power to seek to dominate is a lack of awareness, knowledge and SENSITIVITY to other people. This is hod. Instead of wanting to dominate, Hod seeks to empathize/sympathize with others.. Thus, people seek to dominate because people lack a fundamental sensitivity to the spiritual reality of their fellow spiritual brothers and sisters (after all, were all from the same source, the same pool of consciousness. How can we betray this truth and hurt one another? This is why evil people go to hell. Punishment for having injured an aspect of their own SELF. As corny as it sounds, in truth we are all one.). So. The thigh being referred to here in dionysus definitely has sexual undertones. But the REAL idea is one that is the ESSENCE of the worship of Dionysus. Domination. Dionysus seeks to dominate all limitations, boundaries, rules. Its a pure release of the will to dominate. That is the ESSENCE of dionysian consciousness. And Zeus? Is there a difference between Dionysus and Jesus? Jesus is the son of G-d, Dionysus the thigh of Zeus? Theres a very deep connection here. Zeus is the Greek representation of the Jewish G-d (hence a temple to jupiter was erected after the 2nd temple was destroyed). Dionysus being sown into his father Zeus' thigh signifies an integration and emphasis of a spiritual concept within the fabric of the universe. The concept is the human desire to dominate, SPECIFICALLY against G-d.
Originally posted by dontreally
I think we have to be careful HOW we talk about our problems. Just ranting and imagining that thats psychologically helpful has already been proven in clinical tests to be a false therapeutic method. ranting, yelling, is not healthy. Sure, its let off 'steam', but it also perpetuates the very problem. That is not TRANSMUTING the problem, but recycling it, i feel tense, im gonna yell, give expression to this tension, but the fundamental spiritual issue has not been dealt with. Kabbalistic approach to healing (it should be noted that Jung, Freud, Adler and many others heavily borrowed from the lurianic kabbalah) spiritual pains is through prayer, among other things. The most beneficial way to change yourself is to know deep down that your source of being wants your success in this positive change of self. So, its good to talk about problems when theyre eating at you. How you talk about then should be in a level headed and relaxed way. It should be a 'pouring your heart out' and not a rant. Doing this can often weaken the very reality that while within you, had control, but now that its influence has been exposed, almost as if loses its momentum.
Originally posted by dontreally
Kabbalah talks about a fundamental trinity aswell. Thesis, Antithesis and Synthesis. This is the most basic differentiation of reality we can make. Theres something, theres it opposite, and theres some aspect which mediates the two. But the trinity is only relevant from OUR perspective. Kabbalah and Judaism says theres an ineffable source. Hence the quintessential Jewish expression of faith is "hear oh israel, G-d is our G-d, G-d is one".
Originally posted by dontreally
Its very interesting analyzing all the many similarities between the worlds pagan religions. Emphasis on certain numbers is where you tend to find it. 8 is probably the most mentioned. 8 fold path, 8 beatitudes, the 8 sectioned circle at St peters basilica, with an egyptian obelisk in the center. Apollos special number was 8, and echoing a popular eastern idea, his motto was 'moderation in everything'.
Originally posted by dontreally
It always entertains me when people imagine that the original israelites were pagan. No. Abraham showed the world that spirituality didnt have to be mutually exclusive as the monks, nuns and leaders taught. The social leaders, the aristocrats shares a fundamental spiritual similarity with the monks and nuns. They both believed that Soul and matter were irreconcilable. In fact, they had to be kept apart at all costs. This is what the monks accomplished by being ascetics. The aristocrats accomplished in another way.
Originally posted by dontreally
Lavan is the paradigm of this in the Torah. His very name "white" implies self righteous surety. People like Lavan separate the soul and spirit by relinquishing the body to the physical, the source of mans lower egocentric side, while the soul is somewhere else. look at lavans actions in the bible. he manipulated Jacob throughout. Read paradise lost. In book 3 towards the end theres a very interesting description of how satan uses subterfuge and deception, a reality unappreciated by those who seek unity, and thus simplicity to get what he wants(Lying is the paradigm of separating the inner from the outer. Thus, all politicians are liars) He thus feigns sincerity towards Uriel in a desire to get knowledge of mankinds location.
Originally posted by dontreally
He is the paradigmatic worshipper of Samael, Satan, Lucifer, Hermes. What Jung termed 'the shadow' or the dark god. This is why Jacob went and studied with Shem and Eber. Shem and Eber were mystics of the Buddhist inclination. Nimrod didnt seek to kill them as he did Abraham (by throwing him in a furnace) because monastics dont threaten the soverign rule of the aristocrats (i have said in earlier psots that our world is ruled by aristocrats - ancestors of the same ones in abrahams generation. They like interbreeding) because monastic pose no threats. "They want to go off to a mountain to meditate? Go ahead. Ill leave you to it. Just dont question my theory of society". Shem and Eber thus taught Jacob a very important lesson. Non Jewish mysticism seeks to separate the worlds of matter and spirit. He went there and learned the wisdom of it. In fact, while there, For 14 years he never slept - as an extreme form of ascetic practice.
Originally posted by dontreally
So, Judaism is about connecting spirit and matter. Mitzvot, commandments, are about this. mitzvot are only relevant to the physical world. Its this world which Judaism seeks to spiritualize, and its because of this noble intention that the Jews have sufferred so much throughout history. The Western aristocrats absolutely revile them. find them completely repugant.
Originally posted by dontreally
Look at history. 3000 thousand years extermination attempts have been made against the Jews!.
Originally posted by dontreally
Nazi Germany were the last ones to attempt it and if you know anything about world war 2 politics you would know that the Americans, British, french and the governments of all european regimes which had Jewish population completely complied with the "nazi" agenda.
Originally posted by dontreally
most amazingly was the role of the vatican, the inheritor of Rome and purveyor of evil in our world. Eugene pacelli later on Pope Pius XII (he ascended to this role the very day WWII started. How coincidental) was the one who penned the 1917 new papal canon which created a top down church heirarchy which gave full powers to the pope. This ended the collegiality between bishops that had existed up to that point in the catholic church.
Originally posted by dontreally
This development in addition to his organizing the papal concordant of 1933 with Hitler - which disbanded the catholic center party, gave full ability to the Nazis to gain the political power they were seeking. And when all was set and in place, The pope never utterred a word throuhout the war. Not with the Jews in Germany and Europe, despite the many protests and calls from ambassadors, critics, and diplomats to denounce the Nazi persecution of Jews. Didnt utter a peep. It took 4 grueling years, millions of Jews killed, before pius made a passing ambiguous statement in one of his encyclicals about the suffering of the "people" in Germany. No mention of Jews, or a call to help them. Germany was HALF catholic. imagine what kind of political power Germanies catholics could have exercized if the pope said something.
Originally posted by dontreally
Sorry for getting off topic. Theres a deep reason behind antimsemitism, and it certainly isnt the fault of the Jews. Its a difference of social theory you could say.
Originally posted by dontreally
The leaders of our world are preparing us to accept a gnostic philosophy by separating our very selves. Soul from body. This is the 21st century schizoid man in king crimson (and sampled by kanye west today). This is the mold from which man will embrace the philosophical tenets of 'the perennially philosophy' as Huxley called it. This is manipulation in the most grandest imaginable way.
Originally posted by dontreally
So, before people are even given an ability to choose for themselves what they want, they are being severely handicapped by having both sides of them, the spiritual, contemplative, and the sensual clicked at the same time. Talk about ambivalence. The only way to 'organize' this ambivalence is through recognizing the spirituality posited and championed by people like CG Jung.
Also, in what way did you consider Jung wrong?
Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
here is no ACTUAL meaning, the reason why The Song of Songs sticks out like a sore thumb is because it is written by an artist. Or two. Nothing else in the Bible, new or old, even comes close to touching it. And, as a true piece of art, it’s meaning is manifold. In part, like Dionysus, it is a map, a very complex one that I haven’t fully deciphered, inter woven is the story of creation, and more still the realisation and consummation of the love that is creation, and many other things besides that my mind is not yet capable of processing. It is though, in it’s simplicity a love poem. Sex, in this form, is an act of love, no more or less, it is your mind that denigrates it, not mine.
So, in this poem, we have two very distinct, and equal voices. Male and Female. Though I am open minded to your actual interpretation/meaning, you’re not doing such a good job of selling it. Show me, how do I see it as you see it? The only possible explanation that I can see is that you deny the female, elemental or otherwise, a right to have it’s own voice that compliments that of the male element…and instead assume that the male gives the female a voice. Surely not! Wouldn’t that mean that the Whore of Babylon is the Goddess herself? #, # and bollocks, no wonder your people are cursed, way to go crapping in the hand that feeds you. I mean, seriously!!!!! Good, gosh and golly, I’m really quite shocked at the amazing sense that, well, everything, suddenly makes. My word! Hell, it takes one to know one after all, and although I have never been one, not in this lifetime certainly, I have been called one often enough to wonder what the # that is all about, if you know what I mean, which I doubt very much that you do. # man, you called Mother a whore and you have been spreading the rumour ever since, can you imagine how pissed off Daddy is? I know she’s fuming!
Perhaps you’ve read it too many times. You don’t seem to feel it, you may be desensitised. That could explain a lot. About your people. Hehe, you could say desensitisation is a general theme of Judaism.
Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
Let’s first look at the country that Jung considered ‘Eden’, a nation where some women did not gain the vote until 1990! The man himself, numerous times abused his position by having sexual relations with his patients (female) as well as frequenting prostitutes, he was hardly in a position to set any margin of normalcy, since all his work is about him, even when it is about his patients, it is still about him and how brilliant he was to have discovered that, etc etc. And I suppose I should also now consider that his theory was based upon those of a Jew, whose genetic memory is programmed to see Mother’s as whores. Sure Jung made progress, massively really, all things considered, but only in understanding ‘self’. He was an extreme narcissist which may have helped in that respect, but then he halted it, ceased to guide, began to dictate and like Euripides, he chose money, fame and the power that allowed him to set out the means to realise Rockefeller’s plans for social engineering.
Jung, through the exploration and extirpation of his personal ‘Myth’, unlocked the key to ‘memory’ at the subconscious level, but he largely kept that key in his pocket and only brought it out for the highest bidder, to control others or often more specifically. in order to get his end away. He did far more harm than good.
edit on 20-10-2010 by KilgoreTrout because: Tickly tummies!
Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
reply to post by dontreally
I don't mind having to defend my honour, that seems to be par for my course, but pulling the feminist card, now that is downright insulting. Really, really poor reasoning there. I apologise, but my time is very precious, your replies have been most informative, but I'm a little bored of the judgementalism that accompanies them, I fear that what I thought was enthusiasm may in actuality be fundamentalism.
Thank you for your time, I learnt a great deal.
Best wishes
KT
Originally posted by luxordelphi
OP: I'm fascinated with the original speculation of your thread. I've looked up to refresh my memory the flags and/or insignia of: Switzerland, The Red Cross, The Order of Malta, The Knights Templar and The Hospitaliers. Rather startling. At first glance and first speculation I'd say this and the 26 divisions in Switzerland are by human device and not divine chance. Have to say further that in leaving Switzerland alone perhaps the everchanging yet intimately related rulerships of the world knew something we didn't. Perhaps the secrets of the Templars didn't go to Portugal and Scotland as is rumored but went instead here.