A Friday Night on ATS

Well its friday night, i should be out doing stuff, but my toes broken and i have no car at the moment, so here i am sharing my idea.

Alright, so in church the tithe is 10% correct?
What makes me angry is when i see these huge conglomerate churches with atm's at the front for being able to deposit money to "the church." Some of these churches have RIDICULOUS lighting and sound. It feels more like a concert than anything. It's all a big show. I also know of much smaller churches, where the ministers and people involved in the church receive houses, cars, and a TON of things, when they dont even necessarily need it. At all. I thought to myself, something is wrong here, not necessarily with God's word, but with these people!

Anyway

So, what if there was a 'non communist' way of having a church that gives the offering back to its people. The church is so misguided nowadays and there are many debates on what the church actually is. I believe its the people who make up the church that worship God through our Lord Jesus Christ. If the offering is for the church, why not everyone give their ten percent, and then take that money and distribute it amongst everyone? its not going to be any less than what they gave, and people dont really get it back anyway. As far as paying bills for the church, costs could be minimal and when the church grows, the budget should follow accordingly, as i see it, people need to start giving back. The government does this to us anyway!! Obama wants to spread the wealth around right? They say to give them our money, and trust these people we have never met or seen in our lives. Not only that, but its MANDATORY.

Now this all sounds really great in theory, but what do you guys think? This is my first thread and i know its about religion, but please try to show compassion for my ignorance if this idea can be "debunked." and no i dont support communism, lol

Good because communism sucks.

But for the op, I dont know what church youre talking about but the church i went to haven't been to church in a while overall but, it cost 150000 alone to repair a roof. Its a church that had saints that used to be pastors.

the churches you talk about, as far as I know are the protestant churches where the pastors sntch all the money for themselves. the preist I know take vows of poverty to live after christ.

I am ALL FOR a giving back to the people, but I would rather see a people keep the money and donate on their own account and follow where their money goes, to what organizations ect....



welcome to BTS.... I have no life so Im always here.

forgive my non grammar, my shift button has sticky tea in it and its malfunctioning.

toodles /

thanks for your input! glad i got at least one response lol i should have made my post a friday night on BTS but i didnt really know where i would put this thread on ats lol

I do agree with you which is one of the reasons I do not either donate nor belong to a church. As far as I am concerned there is no reason for any church to have more than a decent sound system that allows for the music and priest/preacher to be heard clearly. Light shows and smoke machines are not necessary.

And while some of those donations go to worthwhile charities, it isn't anywhere near what should be going to them.

The Catholic Church is just as bad as any other when it comes to where all the money goes. Vows of poverty are not all most think of them as being. They have cable tv and a personal vehicle that while they do not typically own said vehicle for all intents and purposes it is theirs. They do make a salary which is pretty much discretionary income as their housing and food bills are all taken care of.

They operate the same as any other business for the most part the only difference is the goods and services they provide are often much more lacking than they should be for the amount of money they collect. And I do not think that anyone would argue things like building maintenance and upkeep and the salary of those working for the church those are things that should be a given. Or even the occasional piece of art. But jet airplanes, designer clothes, lavish jewelry and expensive meals that your congregation could only dream of eating is a bit of an abuse in my view.

Communism rocks! I'm a Christian communist. Even though we're walking oxymoron's.

reply to post by Jovi1


i agree! i am not catholic, i grew up protestant. Do you think more people would go to church if they knew they were getting money out of it? imo its like working the sales angle backwards...

say theyre going to GET MONEY and then give it to them, but offer the gift of Christ's love as well which is worth way more than money. and its all everyones contributions anyway.

its a way better deal instead of saying..... "here buy this! youll love it and get allll your moneys worth!" but then it ends up being a p!iece of crap blender, food chopper, oxyclean, or shamwow.

reply to post by matrixportal


Well they would get more people to go to church if they just split the donations among the congregation. But I think that would kind of defeat the purpose of spiritual enlightenment. But I do feel that churches regardless of their denomination should be a bit more active in helping their congregation when times are difficult. Some do it better than others, but it just seems to me they do not really do enough.

I have issues with the Catholic Church in particular because I have seen first hand how they handle money. I got to see the priest embezzle money out of the church to pay someone to keep quiet about his girlfriend. I got see how he raised money to pay for a new friary and with most of the labor to build it being donated by the parishioners. It was nicer than many of the parishioners homes and we wont even talk about the furniture to go in it. Many parishioners were quite furious over it. After he stole their money, and bankrupted the parish The Catholic Church took a few months to decide what to do and ultimately closed it.

Two of the three full time employees they had were let go, one was 5 years from being able to claim his pension, do you think they just decided to pay him out for it? Oh hell no that would be expecting them to do the right thing for someone that could never find another job that would hire him in his field at his age and condition. By the way if you work for a church and lose your job you do not qualify for unemployment as they are not required to pay into it.

When it comes down to it its all about money for them, and that is a part of the problem. Look at how fast their stance changes on social issues when it becomes clear that they will lose money over it. Divorce being a good example of this, Jesus says it is only acceptable in an unlawful marriage which pretty much equates to an incestuous marriage. But most of them now say that while it is regrettable it is now completely okay. Why? Because in the end it affects the bottom line.

Well Jesus said the only reason for divorce is adultery, so i take that as it is-cheating. And yes I have seen so many churches, denominations first hand and on the news + word of mouth stealing money from people. I agree that money isn't the only answer and if the church is giving away the tithe to the congregation then more and more people would probably start showing up looking for dough. itd get selfish really quick especially with oversight. Something needs to be done about fairness in the church. People are turning on each other left and right. Christians are becoming consumed with hate and are falling from their faith. Not to mention the fact that now christians everywhere have a bad rep because of all this. Everyone needs a prayer lol

Ill buy Adultery as a valid reason for divorce but which form of adultery?

You say cheating, I say that is an impossibility. In Jesus time if you were caught cheating they stoned you to death, there would be no need to tell people its okay to get a divorce in God's eyes because your spouse cheated on you because there would be no need for a divorce the unfaithful spouse was simply executed and being widowed the living spouse would be free to marry whoever they chose.

reply to post by matrixportal


God honors you personally regarding your motive for tithing. Are you doing so because you love him and want to honor Him with the firstfruits of your gains? The pastor or priest will be accountable for how he spent the tithe money gathered, our only concern is to obey the Word of God with honoring Him as our motivation.

It's not good to judge others, let them worry about what they'll have to say for themselves on their day of judgment, for myself I tithe because I'm thankful for being blessed by God in the way He's blessed me.

Hmm thats a really good question. Here is what i found...

adultery is 1st mentioned in the 7th commandment.

"Thou shalt not commit adultery." Exodus 20:14

The second reference to adultery defines it and gives the penalty for it.

"And the man that committeth adultery with [another] man's wife, [even he] that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death."Leviticus 20:10

That clarify's it a bit, but here is where the main reference from Jesus in the new testament comes into play.....

Matthew 27:28

"Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery but I say unto you, That whosoever looketh o­n a [married] woman to [covet] her hath committed adultery with [another man's wife] already in his heart."

Jesus says we are all sinners and everyone falls short of the glory of God. Through Christ we are forgiven, and through his works we see hope peace and what is to come. It's where I take my refuge. I think if more christians read the bible they would be able to defend it more.

[edit on 7-8-2010 by matrixportal]

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Thank you very much i do indeed tithe to give to the church just as the bible says. It's definitely a way to honor him. I just think he meant it for a different purpose sometimes is all. i just think if theres a way to use everything hes told us in order to be able to bring people to Christ who normally wouldn't hear the Word of God otherwise, then it should be done in only good faith with praise to him. If the church needs to be using the tithe in another way, then I can't really do anything about it except pray over the issue. I just wonder sometimes how a church could be better is all i guess.

reply to post by matrixportal


Just have faith that the Lord is ultimately in control at all times and in all circumstances. You will be blessed according to His word as regards to tithing if your heart and motives are rooted in honoring Him as He's asked you to in the Word.

Don't worry, just trust in Him.

Originally posted by matrixportal
Hmm thats a really good question. Here is what i found...

adultery is 1st mentioned in the 7th commandment.

"Thou shalt not commit adultery." Exodus 20:14

The second reference to adultery defines it and gives the penalty for it.

"And the man that committeth adultery with [another] man's wife, [even he] that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death."Leviticus 20:10

That clarify's it a bit, but here is where the main reference from Jesus in the new testament comes into play.....

Matthew 27:28

"Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery but I say unto you, That whosoever looketh o­n a [married] woman to [covet] her hath committed adultery with [another man's wife] already in his heart."

Jesus says we are all sinners and everyone falls short of the glory of God. Through Christ we are forgiven, and through his works we see hope peace and what is to come. It's where I take my refuge. I think if more christians read the bible they would be able to defend it more.

[edit on 7-8-2010 by matrixportal]

You missed a bunch of others:

sex by one married person with someone other than their spouse (Jeremiah 29:23, Ezekiel 16:32)
sex (fornication) by two non-married people (Galatians 5:19)
homosexuality (Romans 1:26-29, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10)
polygamy (Genesis 2:24, 1 Timothy 3:2 & 12, 1 Timothy 5:9, Titus 1:6)
incest (Leviticus 18:7-18, 1 Corinthians 5:1)

Basically adultery as presented is any sexual activity outside of a marriage. People like to think of it as just cheating on your spouse so they can in turn justify not forgiving them. But really why would there need to be any kind of exemption for cheating on your spouse if the penalty for getting caught is death to both parties doing the cheating?

I even have to say incest doesn't qualify for that exemption because it too carries the death sentence. The only activity that would possibly make a divorce justified in Jesus eyes would be polygamy, which doesn't carry a death penalty.

And no you are responsible for where you tithe to, if it is not being used appropriately it is simply empty giving and further enabling them to subvert their mission. It is rather basic really if you suspect that your donations are not being used with the purpose for which you gave them you have the responsibility to cut off the revenue flow and to find an organization that will put them to appropriate use. If your church cannot or will not provide you with at the very least basic information on where your tithe is doing than it is time for you to quit giving to them. There is no justifiable reason for a church to not be transparent in its finances.

Jovi1

thanks for pointing out those others to me, you sure are putting me to work! lol i thank you for it though. anyways,

peter warns about pauls writings. he says they can be very hard to understand and largely misinterpreted to our own destruction.
www.eliyah.com...

edit:sry my comp posted that before i was done!

paul wrote several of the books which you referenced including:
Romans Corinthians, Galatians, Timothy, and Titus.
I am not very well versed in the bible as i should be and i will look more into this for you so I don't misinterpret Pauls writings as well. I've also asked another member on here who seems intelligently versed in the Word to come on this thread to help answer any questions you may have along with those.

The other verses you cited from the old testament (Leviticus, Ezekiel, and Jeremiah) are from the old testament which was long before Jesus Christ, and is meant for an entirely different interpretation, but i will most definitely make the connections between Lev 18, and Cor 5:1, along with what i find from the verses. I just need some time lol, but I will connect it for you. This is my first thread and I want to do it justice, but more so i want to do God justice and with prayer and meditation along with RESEARCH i will hopefully through Christ be able to connect the dots for you and me in a really cool way!

The basic theme I take from the bible is that yes, sexual immorality is wrong. Yes, cheating is wrong. Jesus says its adulterous to even look upon another woman and lust for her. So in turn we should ALL be put to death.

As far as tithing goes i gotta mention Mark 11:17 where Jesus said "Is it not written: My house will be called a prayer for all nations? But you have made it into a 'den of robbers.'"

Jesus turned over the tables and scattered the money all over the men. The witnesses were amazed at his teachings. It is also written Jesus will come back in the end of times and will make things right and exactly as they should. That is what I have faith in. Not the robbers.

I also found this site which talks about tithing in the new testment. Jesus references tithing 3 times, but what this site is saying, is that tithing was abolished as it was on old testament tradition. that i never knew. hmm
www.ehow.com...

ill look more into it.

edit to post the site i found as well

[edit on 7-8-2010 by matrixportal]

[edit on 7-8-2010 by matrixportal]

[edit on 7-8-2010 by matrixportal]

Here is a decent site i found which explains the importance of New Testament and Old Testament fundamentals.

www.gotquestions.org...

Let me start of by making a couple statements. First you will never find a perfect church since all men and woman are not perfect the church will not be perfect as well.

Second the true church is all the people who believe in the death and ressurection of Jesus Christ.

3rd When it comes to the sins that are stated within the Torah the first 5 books of the bible and there punishments that go with them, is complete after Jesus Christ died and was raised. We live under Grace.

There is no condemnation for those who are under Christ.

reply to post by matrixportal
The tithe had to do with that the tribe of Aaron did not have a territory for themselves in Israel. They were priests and I suppose they had to devote more time to the religious affairs rather than farming and herding. People of the tribes would allow them to live in their territories and instead of charging them rent, actually lent to their support.
I can see a corollary to today's situation but preachers are not bogged down to observing a Old Testamental kind of holiness, meaning they could have jobs, like Paul did, and not be so dependent on their flock for support. Christianity was not intended to be stand-alone churches but private worship in the homes of people prosperous enough to house a decent sized audience.Charity is something Christians can do and for people worse off than themselves, not to provide luxurious living for a clerical class or something.
If someone can read and are not criminals or insane, they can get up before a congregation and make a contribution to a "church" and a professional class is not so necessary unless it is medical missionaries or something like that, which would fall under charity.


[edit on 7-8-2010 by jmdewey60]

Thank you for your answers everyone. very very much appreciated

God Bless