Ticket to Heaven?

Well, this is my first time at Posting so, apologies if this comes across as senseless or boring, it's not always easy to put thoughts and ideas to words.

There have been a lot of Threads here on ATS about atheist versus Theists.
Having studied somewhat both sides of the fence, I have great difficulty understanding why anybody would allow themselves to be "taken" by the Bible.

No offence intended to those who worship this Book, but how can one allow themselves to freely enter Servitude to a God who's demands are so great and illogical, leaving one to worship Jesus as their only Golden Ticket to Heaven, appeasing the unappeasable.

Bondage = Freedom?

All Roads may lead to Rome but not to my Daddies House

I have a question for the Christian Folk here on ATS

Hypothetical, lets say, due to recent reanalyzing of Ancient Texts, a correction was made in the Bible.
They omitted the words of Jesus "No one comes to the Father except through me", would you still be a dedicated follower?
If the idea of worshiping Jesus made no difference in Judgement, were would you stand?
Would you still pray to him, ask him for forgiveness, or would you basically not pay homage to this Deity?
Be truthful in your answer, if not to me, at least to yourself.

IMHO I feel this question bares importance as to why would someone give so much to someone who may never have existed, or not have been what we perceive him to be.
If your answer is "Well, I still luv the Guy, but yeah, not wasting any precious time on him" or something in that line, then how could you call yourself a Christian?
To me it would be hypocritical to only worship Jesus for the purpose of Ascension, kinda like being nice to your Boss to keep your Job......... but you don't care much for the Guy, and Jesus (if he exists) would know your true thoughts.

In which case, you are trapped into servitude!
Makes you kinda wish you never heard of the Bible doesn't it?

But I'm sure that most Christians would still be faithful to Jesus regardless of his capabilities....... wouldn't you?
After all, he died for our sins...... probably would have gotten further be lodging a complaint...... but alas.


Anyway, an over simplistic question it probably may be, I would still like to hear your views on the subject.

Don't mean to be harsh here....but to me, your OP reads:

"If you are a Christian, come post here so I can beat you up".



Sorry, Just sayin'.

Hypothetically of course:

If you stopped trying to tie yourself up in knots, you may find it's a lot simpler than you imagine.

Put your "clever monkey brain" down friend, it is hurting you too much

When your heart is in the right place, your brain will know peace.

peace and love

reply to post by Village Idiot

Well this is my first time at Posting so, apologies if this comes across as senseless or boring, it's not always easy to put thoughts and ideas to words.

OK, I suggest folks might give you the benefit of the doubt; the above gives your enquiry a ring of sincerity.

Having studied somewhat both sides of the fence, I have great difficulty understanding why anybody would allow themselves to be "taken" by the Bible.

Many people underestimate how carefully many believers have investigated the veracity of the Bible.

Everyone has different experiences and tales to tell. In my case it was about 3 years of reading, studying and mulling over the Bible. What initially convinced me was three factors:

Firstly countless Old Testament prophecies, types and symbols revealed to people in dreams, visions, coherent utterances over which they had no control, plus visitations from heavenly beings - over the course of millennia - concerning the coming Messiah were fulfilled in the life of one man.

Secondly in-depth study and reflection on the words of Christ himself. No man ever spoke like that man, (and even his enemies acknowledged that).

Thirdly Christ's resurrection from the dead. It had been hinted at in the Old Testament, and Christ specifically taught his (unbelieving) disciples that he would allow himself to be crucified, then rise from the dead. He explained that the purpose was to fulfill all the types and symbols of the O.T. sacrificial system in such a way as to enable those who'd broken their God's moral Law to be reconciled to their Maker, both in this life and the next, which will be eternal - only, in contrast to the Old Testament ways, what he would do would suffice for the eternal forgiveness of all his people on the basis of what he would do in one day.

Then he did it.

I will end with just four Old Testament Messianic prophecies (all given between 500 and 700 years before Christ). Perhaps they will provide food for thought and reflection. God bless...

(Taken from a similar thread, Calling all Christians )

how can one allow themselves to freely enter Servitude to a God who's demands are so great and illogical

Love. Being freed from a bad conscience and the fear of death at the cost of the voluntary death of the Son of God has transformed my attitude to my Maker from one of recoil to one of love and very willing service.

As to the demands they are summed up in these words: "Love God with all your being, and your neighbour as yourself". Not great and illogical demands, but a wonderful life.

The Christian life does involve a serious degree of self-denial in terms of following a given moral and ethical code in your thoughts and conduct, and it can be quite a battle at times — but it brings inexpressible inner peace in the long run.

You speak of bondage, but in reality the Christian faith brings freedom from bondage to many things that are destructive in people's lives.

Hypothetical, lets say, due to recent reanalyzing of Ancient Texts, a correction was made in the Bible. They omitted the words of Jesus "No one comes to the Father except through me", would you still be a dedicated follower? If the idea of worshiping Jesus made no difference in Judgement, were would you stand?

Omitting those particular words would in effect change nothing: they are the message of the entire Bible.

And it is not worshipping Jesus that makes a difference in Judgement; it is the fact he bore my guilt in his own body on the cross. If that were not so, my guilt before God could in no way be removed for all eternity. My worship is merely a response to the fact he did.

Would you still pray to him, ask him for forgiveness, or would you basically not pay homage to this Deity?

I understand your question. But the Christian faith stands or falls on the uniqueness of Christ. If he was not the very embodiment of God, God come in the flesh, then the entire teaching of the Old and New Testaments is meaningless: there is no longer a Christian faith, as the message is thereby nullified.

(Not surprisingly many people baulk at the idea only one person in history was able to reveal God perfectly, and therefore concentrate on attacking this most central of Christian beliefs, as testified by both millennia of prophetic writings and the words of Christ himself.)

why would someone give so much to someone who may never have existed, or not have been what we perceive him to be.

The answer is because such presuppositions rest on very shaky ground. The evidence for the historical veracity of the New Testament has stood the test of rigorous scrutiny in the eyes of many serious investigators. A number of the common fallacies concerning the record were addressed in the following discussion, for example:

New Testament documents — are they reliable?

Originally posted by ladyinwaiting
Don't mean to be harsh here....but to me, your OP reads:

"If you are a Christian, come post here so I can beat you up".

Sorry, Just sayin'.

Well that's not what I was trying to achieve, sorry it comes across that way.

reply to post by Village Idiot


TBH I think ladyinwaiting's response was a result of seeing so much baiting in recent discussions. It does get tiresome.

I'm sure she'll come back and engage where folks post in good faith.

Originally posted by harryhaller
Hypothetically of course:

If you stopped trying to tie yourself up in knots, you may find it's a lot simpler than you imagine.

Put your "clever monkey brain" down friend, it is hurting you too much

When your heart is in the right place, your brain will know peace.

peace and love

Of course. The answer is so simple.

Stop thinking. Thanks.

reply to post by pause4thought


Thanks for the input, I appreciate it.

I won't claim to have studied the Bible and Ancient Texts to great depths as some have, but I know certain versus hold greater meaning to People,
particularly the one of passage to Heaven, it's controlling and runs against freedom of choice.

But, that's just an opinion, and like you point out, it runs deeper.

Regards

reply to post by Village Idiot


I agree with you to this extent: the Christian belief that there is only one way that leads to Heaven has been usurped and used to control masses of people by organizations. By claiming to be the only true church they manipulate people for political and/or financial gain.

Personally I would include the Roman Catholic church, JWs / The Watchtower Organization, Mormons, and many other cults in this category, despite the fact they all have many genuine, sincere adherents. Yet I have known a number of Catholic people and priests, for example, who were exemplary Christians.

The problem lies in the claim to exclusivity: "Unless you are a member of our organization you can't be saved", etc. This is a classic sign of a cult, used to gain your allegiance and your money.

A real church was defined by Christ as "Wherever two or three gather in my name, there I am in the midst". And the functioning of such churches has at least as much to do with living lives of everyday discipleship as it does of meetings! The myriad promises he addressed to true believers / disciples (in the Gospels) are valid for all who accept his claims, no matter what group/denomination they belong to.

Yet the Good News (or 'gospel') is undeniably exclusive. Only God himself can truly reveal the way to himself. And the fact it is exclusive gives the believer peace in that the way is not nebulous, but stems from God's self-revelation through his one and only Son.

There are actually countless real churches out there of all shapes and sizes. The ones to look out for are the ones where the leaders will tell you: "If you disagree with anything I teach, show me in the Bible why I'm wrong, and I'll retract what I said in public". They won't exert pressure for people to give money or teach that if you follow Christ you'll become prosperous, they won't make false claims about people being healed, and they won't try to control people's lives. They'll genuinely be seeking to live the way Christ did.

As soon as you see big money, you know it doesn't represent the one who had nowhere to lay his head, and who taught "Give up all that you have, and come, follow me, and you will have treasure in Heaven"!

It is very telling what Christ did when he entered the precincts of a temple being run for financial gain: he turned the money-changers' tables upside down in rage, and destroyed the joint.

Freedom of choice remains: one can follow Christ from the heart or walk away from him. The warnings are there not to manipulate, but to express love — in the same way a parent warns a child vehemently, yet motivated by unadulterated, well-informed concern.

I used to ridicule christians/bible/god anything, even remember distinctly saying it was all just something for the weakminded to believe in to make a little since out of life and was very popular in that I suppose due to a loss of nearly all my "friends" once I told them about the one night I had picked up a small green Gideon NT that a woman had left on the bar a few days earlier and as soon as I had begun to open the cover, an AUDIBLE voice as if a man was sitting to my left that said-my name, I am Jesus I died for your sins believe in Me and you will never perish-AWESTRUCK I stood to my feet turned towards the voice and said yes Lord, then came across these years later-

I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.-John5.25

suddenly a bright light from heaven flashed around me. I fell to the ground and heard a voice say to me, 'Saul! Saul! Why do you persecute me?'" 'Who are you, Lord?' I asked. " 'I am Jesus-Acts22.8

For Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died.-2Cor5.14

I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.-John10.28

the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."-Rev19.10

bondage?-

"No servant can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money."-Luke16.13, Galatians 4 is a good one also

The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."-Gal5.14

"If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first(Jesus).-John15.18

For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."-Matt11.30

Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.-2Cor3.17

For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law.-Gal3.21

Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst.-1Tim1.15

If god is real then in judgment day, you wont be asking him questions, but hell be asking YOU the questions. I agree that religion is based on faith and only faith, not scientific fact.However, this applies to all religions. I see that most people attack christianity, when there are thousands of other religions to attack aswell. I agree with the op though.

reply to post by evil incarnate


Hmmmm ... nice obfuscation.
Not stop thinking, stop trying to be clever.
There's a difference, you know?

Originally posted by harryhaller
reply to post by evil incarnate

 

Hmmmm ... nice obfuscation.
Not stop thinking, stop trying to be clever.
There's a difference, you know?

I know that but I am not sure that you do. Perhaps I am being too clever by reading the words used to write that post? Let's see...

If you stopped trying to tie yourself up in knots, you may find it's a lot simpler than you imagine.

The answer is simple. You need to stop trying so hard to find it, because it is so simple.

OK, I am with you so far.

Put your "clever monkey brain" down friend, it is hurting you too much

Well, even the most clever among monkeys would still be far less clever than the average human so when you tell people to stop trying as hard as a clever monkey you are telling them to take it to a notch below retarded adult.

When your heart is in the right place, your brain will know peace.

To find the answer, use your heart and not your brain. Ta da! There we get "stop thinking."

Sorry but I cannot find the button that turns off my clever ability to read.

An alleged free ticket into some exclusive eternal paradise club in the afterlife is what maintains the religious membership. If a faith didn't promise its cult the exclusive VIP ticket to their special heaven, they wouldn't pay it no mind at all.

Just look at how ridiculous the stories within their religious texts are!!

Just look at the imaginary characters and invisible friends that they have and magically speak to via clasping their hands and looking up at the sky!!!

According to them, most everything that is occurring on this planet is the result of these imaginary characters!!!

When they do wrong -- its the imaginary characters tempting and fooling them!!!

When something good happens, its another imaginary friend who is rewarding them!!

No mentally sane person would believe in such nonsense if it weren't for that exclusive VIP membership card to their great heaven in the sky club!!

I know and interacted with such folk for a long time as I too used to be one. Except I couldn't stop asking questions and searching for answers to which NO pastor or preacher, or end-timer could answer. So I researched the origins of the faith and worked forward from there. It is 100% clear now that it is a total SCAM.

AND, the cult members will just brush this off as the imaginary satan character having tempted me to study the faith and that it was he and demons that are fooling me simply because I asked questions and educated myself.

The majority of them are hopeless due to their laziness and their satisfaction of their free heaven card. Pure and simple.





[edit on 22-7-2010 by SunIsSon]

reply to post by evil incarnate


Thanks for the excellent example of someone trying to be clever.

Fail.

Originally posted by harryhaller
reply to post by evil incarnate

 

Thanks for the excellent example of someone trying to be clever.

Fail.

Were you words meant to be in a different language? Is English not your forte? When you tell people to use their hearts and not their minds to learn things, you are telling them to stop thinking. I am not sure what you are confused about being your own words but hey, have at it.

reply to post by evil incarnate


If you think "words" and "thoughts" are the only knowledge that exists, you really haven't learned much in your time here (earth).

Originally posted by harryhaller
reply to post by evil incarnate

 

If you think "words" and "thoughts" are the only knowledge that exists, you really haven't learned much in your time here (earth).

That is not at all what I said.

Please tell me though, what truth are you saying you can find with use of heart and lack of brain? Hope? Love? Superior Vena Cava?

reply to post by evil incarnate


Oh you are a bright boy!

Love is a good start. No words or ideas get close to that one.

Originally posted by harryhaller
reply to post by evil incarnate

 

Oh you are a bright boy!

Love is a good start. No words or ideas get close to that one.

But love is not "truth."

That does not make it "truth" though.

I get it. You want to play silly word games for whatever reason. I guess I should know better than to expect logic or a real discussion in a thread like this.