Revelation; The Beast-great leader and antichrist

Originally posted by harryhaller

The beast of the sea could have several possibilities,

I don't know whether you've seen my previous thread, on the Besat from the sea. I planted a link at the top of the OP,but
The Beast from the Sea- a World-state

My argument was that;
The ch13 Beast from the sea is obviously modelled on the Daniel ch7 beasts from the sea.
But the Daniel ch7 beasts are clearly to be understood as kingdoms.
Therefore the ch13 Beast is also to be understood as a kingdom.
I still think the logic is sound

It also gave my explanation of the seven heads, the ten horns, and the wounding of the first Beast.

I expect to tackle the Mark in about a fortnight.

Originally posted by deadred
I've been studying this stuff for 40 years and am not ready to write anything into stone. God knows our Hearts, which is the key for me. Theories abound but there is one God. One of my personal mantras is to "live within the Question". The things I cannot know right now have answers, and they will be revealed to me at some unknown time in the future when I am ready. Frankly, I don't have to know the answers because in my Heart I know God is in control. That is enough for me. We live in incredible times, and let's remember that the time will only be shortened for The Elect, lest no flesh be saved. That is humbling because it means that God loved me before the Foundation of the Earth. I feel that is the reason I've sought after Him all my life. I don't look at myself as anything great, but if He thinks so, it's good enough for me!

++1
growing up I knew a ton of scholars that taught that the deal would go down no later than 1988. They were sincere and well-reasoned, but wrong.
having said that...I really think it won't be much longer. I used to think 50-70 years; now I'm thinking, less than 10. 2012 might well be it.

note; the Greek wording translated as 'rule over the WHOLE WORLD' can be translated 'the area' or 'the whole region', similar to the expression 'everyody' ('everybody's going to McDonalds after school'. you mean everybody on earth? no, a bunch of people).

Originally posted by works4dhs

Thank you for that contribution

note; the Greek wording translated as 'rule over the WHOLE WORLD' can be translated 'the area' or 'the whole region', similar to the expression 'everyody' ('everybody's going to McDonalds after school'. you mean everybody on earth? no, a bunch of people).

Maybe, but the expression in v7 about the rule of the first Beast is "every tribe and people and tongue and nation", which seems fairly conclusive (as well as inclusive). I suggested in my previous thread that the "ten kings" who handed over their authority were the rulers of the world in general. Taking ch13 as a whole, it's very difficult to avoid the impression that the whole world is meant.

[edit on 21-7-2010 by DISRAELI]

Originally posted by No King but Jesus
reply to post by Kalki11

 

one night I had picked up a small green Gideon NT that a woman had left on the bar a few days earlier and as soon as I had begun to open the cover, an AUDIBLE voice as if a man was sitting to my left that said-my name, I am Jesus I died for your sins believe in Me and you will never perish-AWESTRUCK(not being raised churched or knowing the scripts) I stood to my feet turned towards the voice and said yes Lord, then came across these years later-

I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.-John5.25

suddenly a bright light from heaven flashed around me. I fell to the ground and heard a voice say to me, 'Saul! Saul! Why do you persecute me?'" 'Who are you, Lord?' I asked. " 'I am Jesus-Acts22.8

For Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died.-2Cor5.14

I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.-John10.28

the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."-Rev19.10


[edit on by No King but Jesus]

your point?

Originally posted by Kalki11

Originally posted by No King but Jesus
...
the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."-Rev19.10

your point?

The poster is offline, but the last point he mentioned is very relevant to the topic.
And vice-versa- the point of Biblical prophecy is to be a testimony to Jesus.

Originally posted by DISRAELI

Originally posted by works4dhs

Thank you for that contribution

note; the Greek wording translated as 'rule over the WHOLE WORLD' can be translated 'the area' or 'the whole region', similar to the expression 'everyody' ('everybody's going to McDonalds after school'. you mean everybody on earth? no, a bunch of people).

Maybe, but the expression in v7 about the rule of the first Beast is "every tribe and people and tongue and nation", which seems fairly conclusive (as well as inclusive). I suggested in my previous thread that the "ten kings" who handed over their authority were the rulers of the world in general. Taking ch13 as a whole, it's very difficult to avoid the impression that the whole world is meant.

[edit on 21-7-2010 by DISRAELI]

again, it's my understanding that this refers to every person, in that particular region, the conclusion being the Beast will have absolute power over an international area (the new caliphate?), but not a truly global domain.
it will be a long time before the commerce referred to re; the mark, could be enforced in most of Asia, latin America, or sub-saharan Africa.
Europe and the Middle East...not that hard.

Originally posted by works4dhs
again, it's my understanding that this refers to every person, in that particular region, the conclusion being the Beast will have absolute power over an international area (the new caliphate?), but not a truly global domain.
it will be a long time before the commerce referred to re; the mark, could be enforced in most of Asia, latin America, or sub-saharan Africa.
Europe and the Middle East...not that hard.

On the practicalities of ruling over the world, I refer once again to my theory in the previous thread about the "ten kings" co-operating with the Beast. My supposition is that he would not need to rule the whole world directly, but that the support of the other rulers would effectively enable him to dominate much of the world indirectly.

As for the practicality of enforcing the "mark"- well, that depends on what the "mark" actually denotes. I expect to come to that in a later thread. But in essence, I see it as a symbol of loyalty, whatever form it takes. Now couple that with my theory that the world in general would actually be very enthusiastic about the "worship of the Beast". If the world is enthusiastic, neither the worship, not the "mark" which symbolises it, would need much enforcing. Peer pressure would go a long way.

reply to post by Kalki11


At that time his voice shook the earth, but now he has promised, "Once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heavens."-Heb12.26

The high priest said to him, "I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God." "Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied. "But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."-Matt26.63

His body was like chrysolite, his face like lightning, his eyes like flaming torches, his arms and legs like the gleam of burnished bronze, and his voice like the sound of a multitude.-Dan10.6

His way is in the whirlwind and the storm, and clouds are the dust of his feet.-Nah1.3

the day I will stand up to testify.-Zeph3.8

and high above on the throne was a figure like that of a man. 27 I saw that from what appeared to be his waist up he looked like glowing metal, as if full of fire, and that from there down he looked like fire; and brilliant light surrounded him. 28 Like the appearance of a rainbow in the clouds on a rainy day, so was the radiance around him.
This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. When I saw it, I fell facedown, and I heard the voice of one speaking.-Eze1

The disciples said, "See, Lord, here are two swords." "That is enough," he replied.-Luke22.38

he who unites himself with the Lord is one with him in spirit.-1Cor6.17

He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.-Rev19.13

If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin. Now, however, they have no excuse for their sin.-John15.22

Originally posted by DISRAELI

Originally posted by works4dhs
again, it's my understanding that this refers to every person, in that particular region, the conclusion being the Beast will have absolute power over an international area (the new caliphate?), but not a truly global domain.
it will be a long time before the commerce referred to re; the mark, could be enforced in most of Asia, latin America, or sub-saharan Africa.
Europe and the Middle East...not that hard.

As for the practicality of enforcing the "mark"- well, that depends on what the "mark" actually denotes. I expect to come to that in a later thread. But in essence, I see it as a symbol of loyalty, whatever form it takes. Now couple that with my theory that the world in general would actually be very enthusiastic about the "worship of the Beast". If the world is enthusiastic, neither the worship, not the "mark" which symbolises it, would need much enforcing. Peer pressure would go a long way.

I'm pretty sure the 'mark' will either be an invisible laser tattoo (maybe in bar code form) or an RFID chip (ALREADY in use). if all transactions are electronic (and in much of the world this is feasible now) they can be controlled. TPTB (or, The Powers That Will Be) will promote this as an end to identity theft, drug commerce and much petty crime (no one will bother taking your wallet if there's no money in it).
this is the sort of thing I see coming; the State taking away freedoms and spinning it as a positive 'for our own good' deal. (you KNOW they would love to control/stop things like undocumented gun sales). the technology is such that if the bank freezes your account your card will become useless in minutes ('there seems to be a problem with you account'). someone sitting at a State computer will be able to do that in seconds.
brave new world buddies! Bible prophecy aside, this is disturbing.

[edit on 25-7-2010 by works4dhs]

reply to post by works4dhs

Thank you for that contribution.
I can't say "see my next thread", because I've decided to tackle "666" on its own first.
I shall have to go away in a moment and start typing the same, so we'll have to continue this discussion at a later point.

This is how "power over all the earth" is taken away from us. We are presently just feeding this Beast blood and oil and killing ourselves in the process.

Put this on your Facebook pages - get this information out or the beast is going to win....Maybe we are lost anyway, but we should never give up trying to save the world. It is worth keeping. (thanks ofhumandescent)

reply to post by rusethorcain

Thank you for that.
I've been typing away at my other thread, and my head has only just surfaced again.
I'll have a look at the video as soon as I get a free moment.

reply to post by DISRAELI


You are one of the most polite posters here on ATS. Only "maybe,maybenot" rivals you in courtesy and I want to say you are such a refreshing break from the warriors DISRAELI, and a great example for us all. Thanks

Hope you like the video, though it is sort of depressing if you dwell on it.

reply to post by inforeal


LOL, nice try with the Palin bashing I think Palin is irrelevant politically anyway. But when it comes to the bible it was originally written it ancient Hebrew like 2000 years ago I doubt the term “Pale Horse” was anything like Sarah Palin, in ancient Hebrew.

reply to post by rusethorcain

Yes, thank you for sharing that video.
I've had a chance to look at it now.
I may decide to refer back to it when I look at ch8.

reply to post by rusethorcain

Yes, thank you for sharing that video.
I've had a chance to look at it now.
I may decide to refer back to it when I look at ch8.

Beast = Animal so using that thought I would think someone predicted the sacrificial system to arise again and that it was written to be unspeakable to the educated.

I therefor postulate that the so called Beast and its system is the sacrificial system that was supposedly outed with Christianity.

It makes sense that someone would write about it appearing again alongside Earth Worship as early Christian writers no doubt knew of it and how archaic it was to their new beliefs.

reply to post by mazzroth


good point-

whoever sacrifices a bull is like one who kills a man, and whoever offers a lamb, like one who breaks a dog's neck; whoever makes a grain offering is like one who presents pig's blood, and whoever burns memorial incense, like one who worships an idol. They have chosen their own ways, and their souls delight in their abominations-Is66.3

It's true that a beast ='s an animal, but the book of Daniel makes it clear that kingdoms, nations, or powers, are represented by (animals) "beasts."

The 1st Beast (kingdom, nation, etc.) rises from the "sea." The "sea" represents peoples, multitudes, nations, and languages. - See Rev. 17:5
The 1st Beast is a religious/political - church state, that demands worship.
By worshipping this 1st Beast, you are actually worshipping Satan.
"And they worshipped the dragon (Satan) which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? Rev. 13:4

The 2nd Beast (nation) rises from the "earth." - A sparsely populated land.
This nation rises up like a lamb (representative of Christ) but speaks as a dragon (Satan).
This 2nd Beast (nation) is responsible for causing all nations of the earth, to worship the 1st Beast. See Rev. 13:11 & 12

Originally posted by SkyLiner
It's true that a beast ='s an animal, but the book of Daniel makes it clear that kingdoms, nations, or powers, are represented by (animals) "beasts."

Thank you for that contribution.
Ys, I was looking into the Daniel connection as I was doing the earlier thread on "The Beast- a world-state".

I agree absolutely with everything you say about the first Beast.

But I think my proposal that the second Beast is an individual makes it easier to understand how the second Beast can "exercise the authority" of the first.

I know there's a school of thought which regards them both as human individuals.
Surely one of them has to be an individual, at any rate, in order to fulfil the various other prophecies, like the "king" in Daniel, and the "man of Sin" in Thessalonans?

[edit on 26-7-2010 by DISRAELI]