How you know God (or a higher power) Exists.

Originally posted by srbouska
Nothing new (original) has ever been created since the world/universe has been created.

if this statement is suggesting that all technologies we have are "hand me downs" and not new, then isn't there a higher power handing down the pieces and the information?

i think new and original stuff is being created.

new words, new ingredients, new ways to understand old concepts.

thoughts are things. if i am nothing more than recycled thoughts, then who am i really?




ah, who am i and what do i know,
et

reply to post by DrakeDarc


first, the bible i think is the only book that mentions the son of god coming here, so you do believe in the bible, alot.

second, whos to say that a universe with or without a higher power would be simple? of course the universe is going to be complex, because we are complex. things be too complex that it has to explain the existance of a higher power isnt proof to me.

reply to post by Titen-Sxull


The pic you posted is an excellent point of a misconception many have. I don't have faith because it is too hard to find the real answers, I simply found the real answers through my faith. If you knew my journey, it would have been so much easier for me to just go with hypothesis using incomplete/unsure data (hmm, that sounds suspicously like faith to me) to avoid the hard work of examination of the soul.

reply to post by MrXYZ


very good video with thought provoking results. although i disagree with the entire premise for the neccessity of the question he poses at the end.

reply to post by Esoteric Teacher


Good point about thoughts being original. that is true but.. thoughts originate from our minds, which arent original ( sorry)
new ingredients based of old ingredients yes. But the point is there's still nothign fresh and new.. when was the last time you woke up and read the paper NEW LIFE CREATED and it being something you have never ever seen before. there hasnt because you cant even wrap your mind around something newly created as we can only base our perceptions on what we know in our world.
But very good point about thoughts. that actually has me thinking * no pun intended*
Thoughts are not solid but they are completely new.
Thanks for that.
I would hazard to say that though thoughts originate from the brain a recycled product of organic creation... the thoughts themselves are 100% original! though not Physical, they are original.

The reaction of the universe with everything to ensure existence of... well the universe itself is very complex.
I look at it as a pool shot
you line it up to take a trick shot ( the planning) that will make all the balls sink in specific pockets ( the outcome) the "GOD" or Higher power of that.. is the entity holding the stick that made the planning possible.
That can not be recreated.. EVER. Because not only did this entity set the shot up as so... it created the whole game and all the rules defined with in it.
How do you go outside of those lines to create somethign new if your only given what was already created by the entity that created it.



[edit on 15-7-2010 by srbouska]

reply to post by Endure

The pic you posted is an excellent point of a misconception many have.

Its not a misconception, the OP clearly is using this "higher power" to fill gaps in his/her knowledge about the Universe that science hasn't answered yet. I never said it applies in every case though.

I don't have faith because it is too hard to find the real answers, I simply found the real answers through my faith.

Faith in what? If its faith in something for which there is no evidence than you haven't found any real answers.

it would have been so much easier for me to just go with hypothesis using incomplete/unsure data (hmm, that sounds suspicously like faith to me)

You must be confused about the definition of faith, allow me to offer an example:

Faith -

Person 1: That volcano is erupting, perhaps some strange god is controlling it.

Person 2: Do you have any evidence of this

Person 1: No but what else could possibly explain it?

or

Person 1: An invisible man lives in the sky and loves me.

Person 2: How do you know that? Do you have any evidence?

Person 1: I just KNOW it in my heart of hearts.



Science -

Person 1: All current forms of life evolved from earlier ones.

Person 2: Have any evidence of this?

Person 1: Yes, the fossil record clearly shows transitional forms. Each layer of strata shows the gradual changes and they are all lined up in a chronological phylogenetic tree. Genetics also confirms the inter-relations of species and we've even directly observed the divergence of two species (speciation). We can say with a good degree of certainty that this mechanism is responsible for Earth's bio-diversity, we've been researching and gaining a clearer understanding of how it works for nearly 200 years.

to avoid the hard work of examination of the soul.

So you think trying to explain the world around us without magical men in the sky is a cop-out? Real explanations based on objectively verifiable evidence is just an excuse to run away from some ethereal ghost being (soul) that dwells within us? What utter nonsense.


[edit on 15-7-2010 by Titen-Sxull]

[edit on 15-7-2010 by Titen-Sxull]

[edit on 15-7-2010 by Titen-Sxull]

Actually I retract my comment that thoughts are original, they are not i'm sorry original.
They are purely based on the building blocks of the world we live in through descriptions, you cant think of something that doesnt exist because it will still contain the boundaries of our knowledge of the world. even science fiction is limited to our thoughts on what exists. You are completely unable *as this is how we are created* to not think outside our lines of understanding.

reply to post by Titen-Sxull


It's ok man, I am not trying to threaten or challenge your belief. You seem to have a very simplistic view of faith though. I do not see the eruption and claim that God is controlling it. I use science to determine it's properties and charcteristics, so we will both come to the exact same conclusions about it's structure, behavior etc.

But down that road always leads to a point of "Ok where did all this come from and how did it get here, and what keeps it all going without it all falling into chaos instead of somehow maintaining order." This is where we differ. I will draw the conclusion that there is a Creator, you draw a different conclusion but we both used the same method. Happens all the time in science.

If you really believe people of faith are such simplistic idiots, that is your right.

[edit on 15-7-2010 by Endure]

i am new to this site and i do find it to be very thought provoking and i do think that i could spew a bunch of mumbo jumbo....try to make myself to sound more intelligent try to supercede ones remarks with more hypothetical crap...but i will just ssay this....if you feel a need to believe in a higher power and it makes you feel that it gives you a reason for living then that is great....and if others have the need to question wether there is a higher power and it makes them feel better then that too is great....but if there is a higher power and they allow things to happen to the good people of earth and the suffering that we endure during our lives here while the few life a life of isolation and richness then i damned that higher power to hell and i will do all within my higher power to expose them to the worl....Please Let Us be Enlightened....

reply to post by Endure

You seem to have a very simplistic view of faith though.

For those examples yes I was trying to be simple. Faith can mean a lot of things but in the context of a discussion of the God question it typically means: belief not based on evidence. Typically it is based on subjective experience (warm and fuzzy feelings when you pray is a good example of this) or indoctrination that took place during youth.

"Ok where did all this come from and how did it get here, and what keeps it all going without it all falling into chaos instead of somehow maintaining order."

That's a perfectly valid question to which we all want the answer but saying that it is God does nothing to further our understanding. Just saying, "God must've done it" and shrugging our shoulders will get us nowhere. Honestly we might never know the answer but I think not knowing, having a mystery, is far more interesting than postulating an arbitrary God just to have a passable fill-in-the-blank answer.

If you really believe people of faith are such simplistic idiots

I don't. When did I ever even suggest such a thing? Most people of faith are ordinary intelligent people who have been either self-deceived or deceived by their parents.

Personally i believe that some advanced aliens or what have you genetically engineered use with the DNA of the some primate. i believe in evolution within a species, not the Theory of Evolution. to me it just doesnt make any sense that a species can "morph" into a brand new species.

Also i believe there is some sort of god, just not yahweh. i think all the gods that are known on earth are the alien species. the creator god i believe in could not even be a being but just some great all knowing entity....kind of like god in the Godfellas episode of Futurama that bender meets while floating endlessly in space.

I might as well add i agree with the scientist that said gravity doesnt exist. ive thought that for a few years now. its all an illusion and our minds are more powerful than we will ever know on this planet.

[edit on 15-7-2010 by bismos]

reply to post by Titen-Sxull

Explanation: Hmmm?

Faith -

1st Person POV: Cognito Ergo Sum!... I'm thinking,... perhaps some strange god is controlling me?

3rd Person POV: Do you have any evidence of this?

1st Person POV: No but what else could possibly TOTALLY explain my existence?

3rd Person POV: Your the ONE asking and answering your own questions so you work it out OK! :shk:

Personal Disclosure: Since we all start out with Cognito Ergo Sum i.e." I think, therefor I am!" and at that point in time of experiencing that moment we have absolutely NO VALID PROOF that we are anything but a disembodied mind having massive hallucinations and yet we all move on!

Science is faith based to a certain measurable extent and here is my evidence to back that claim...

Newtons Laws AREN'T Perfect and yet were faithfully followed by scientists the basis of science for hundreds of years before Einstein broke that typical Kuhnian paradigm with some Popperainian stress testing!

Do you concur???

Edited to add a missing word RE: ONE [was important word and I can't believe I didn't type it :shk: wth? ] Soz Sigh

[edit on 15-7-2010 by OmegaLogos]

I think that we were interfeared with and but we were evolving on this planet and at some point we were genetetically enhanced to put it lightly...so evolution still stands [img=http://churchofcriticalthinking.org/images/missinglinkdebate.jpg]The Missing Link[/img]

Originally posted by Titen-Sxull
reply to post by Endure

 

[
That's a perfectly valid question to which we all want the answer but saying that it is God does nothing to further our understanding. Just saying, "God must've done it" and shrugging our shoulders will get us nowhere. Honestly we might never know the answer but I think not knowing, having a mystery, is far more interesting than postulating an arbitrary God just to have a passable fill-in-the-blank answer.

Well what I did was look at the chaos my room was in. So I got up and put it in order. Then it clicked that if I don't do this all the time, it will fall back into chaos. I could not find one single example anywhere of things tending toward order naturally. So I wondered "who does this for the entire universe?" because I don't see how or why an inanimate force would this. It just simply became more believable to me that there is a Creator, based on science. That then opened the door for faith.

If you ever do discover this force man let me know please so I can harness it to keep my house clean!

reply to post by OmegaLogos

Newtons Laws AREN'T Perfect and yet were faithfully followed by scientists the basis of science for hundreds of years before Einstein broke that typical Kuhnian paradigm with some Popperainian stress testing!

Faith is the acceptance of something without evidence isn't it? At least in the religious sense it is. But we had observations and data that confirmed plenty of Newton's work, it was observable in the real world and therefore not a matter of faith. Of course it wasn't perfect and others eventually realized this but this just furthers our understanding.

Science progresses as new laws, hypotheses and theories are formed on a framework of actual evidence and data. Each theory gets us closer to the truth but unlike religion science never claims absolute certainty because there is always more to be learned and discovered.

If you want to say we put "faith" in it as in we tend to "TRUST" science than sure, call that faith if you want but its not the same as religious faith because it has evidence backing it up. We have "faith" in those that came before and their work, until new data, observation and evidence can refine our understanding.

reply to post by Endure

It just simply became more believable to me that there is a Creator, based on science.

Nothing in science suggests a Creator. You can say that this "order" force cleaning up the chaos is God if you want but again that doesn't further our understanding and I'd much rather admit that I have no idea.

Besides, cosmology has gotten rather weird lately, what with all the talk of Dark Matter, Dark Energy, particles popping in and out of existence, we might be around the corner from discovering the mechanism that orders the Universe. Most scientists, I imagine, would say Gravity plays a major role in the "balance"... I don't think the Universe is without chaos though, right here in our own solar system we have an asteroid belt that might as well be the equivalent of your messy room in an otherwise orderly house

[edit on 15-7-2010 by Titen-Sxull]

Originally posted by Titen-Sxull
reply to post by OmegaLogos

 

I don't think the Universe is without chaos though, right here in our own solar system we have an asteroid belt that might as well be the equivalent of your messy room in an otherwise orderly house

[edit on 15-7-2010 by Titen-Sxull]

Ya well I am NOT cleaning up that mess brother.

The fields of comparative mythology, comparative religion, and comparative mysticism overlap quite nicely and in so doing reveal a pattern that, IMHO, shows that there is probably a non-local, transpersonal influence behind all religions.

Whatever that influence is, it's a "higher power".

[edit on 15-7-2010 by Student X]

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/16d5166515e2.jpg[/atsimg]


Crap on God!
Crap on God!
Crap on God!

Talk to the toilet seat for a hour.

The thread is how you know there is a god/higher power....so why go with the esoteric and not state your personal reasons why rather than fill a void with things that you might be just quoting and really give a personal reason for why each person might think there is or isn't a god or higher power....i gave my reason...but i just question what mmight be considered a higher power or a god.