NEWS: China is Sending Nuclear Technology to Iran and NK

Its good to hear from someone who lives there and at the same time acknowledges that the Chinese government is not exactly peachy. There are many good people in China, this is a fact which was true even when the Chinese government was not using capitalism to raise their economy and was at its worse on human rights violations. It is the same that is happening in many nations. Even Cuba has changed some, but still human right violations and such occur everyday behind the scenes and are not viewed even by the people living in those countries. Only those close to where things happen know what has happened. This is part of communist countries, the media is mostly completly controlled by the state. Every nation in the world has to make some changes to keep up with the rest of the world, even communist countries, or risk the collapse of the nation and the government.

A recurring pattern in U.S foreign policy in the New World Order seems to be that if the adversary is capable of putting up a good fight with the U.S. and can cause horrendous damage (China, Iran, North Korea), then they will avoid them at all costs.

A good example is Russia fighting the rebels in Chechen. A nation striving for independence is being attacked daily by Russia. What has America done in this situation? Nothing. If I am wrong, please correct me.

Funny. I was reading a special section on today's Newsweek and it was all about China becoming a strong economic power capable of competing in the world and challenging the U.S. It's rather worrisome, because I cannot see America willing to take on a nation such as China.

As for human rights, etc., none of that really helps the U.S., because the Chinese people support China, if not their government. They support their country and their people. Just like many Americans support the people, but not the government. So it really doesn't help the U.S., because the Chinese will still fight Americans if it ever came to that.

Originally posted by Muaddib
Its good to hear from someone who lives there and at the same time acknowledges that the Chinese government is not exactly peachy. There are many good people in China, this is a fact which was true even when the Chinese government was not using capitalism to raise their economy and was at its worse on human rights violations. It is the same that is happening in many nations. Even Cuba has changed some, but still human right violations and such occur everyday behind the scenes and are not viewed even by the people living in those countries. Only those close to where things happen know what has happened. This is part of communist countries, the media is mostly completly controlled by the state. Every nation in the world has to make some changes to keep up with the rest of the world, even communist countries, or risk the collapse of the nation and the government.

Although I agree most of what ou said, I cant help getting a strange feeling, that you do not really know how things going outside of America and you judge things by theory, that is, "since they are communist countries, then they are for sure doing bad things like...." Please note that it is not appropriate to use concept of "commies" 20 years ago to define todays China (only one county now meet that concept, NK).

Well, so-called "mostly completly controled media" may not like what you imaged, and "human right violations" may have other faces. Unless you have more reliable source than I do (by that I mean classified info because I can see all public stuff as you can), you may not know more than I do about inside of China's society. No offense, but you never been in China, nor can you read in Chinese can you?

al of this stuff that is happening with the iran nuclear problem and the NK's and chinese will probally lead to the third world war. i have no doubts about it.

I was born outside of the US. I was born in a communist country as I have stated before and lived there until I was 8 years old. I still have family there even thou my parents and I left in 1980 to Spain where our other side of our family claimed us from, when it was still possible to do so, and even then it took years and lots of money from them for us to be able to leave Cuba. I lived and was raised in Spain for almost 10 years and came to the States when i was 17 years old in 1989. I went to visit my family in Cuba in 2001 and things are much worse than they used to be. Castro is just playing it smart with many countries and getting the UN to somehow back him up as the UN itself has countries which are also dictatorships, despotats and some of them communist too.

Do I personally know what is happening in China from a first person view? no. But I have seen that the Chinese government has changed in its politics just enough to be able to gain an advantage through capitalism, while still remaining as a communist country.

The Chinese government still wanting a nation that was never really theirs, saying that Taiwan is part of China, that the Chinese government would never accept its independance, and that they would go to war to stop this tells me that the Chinese government has not changed much from what it used to be, like the Chinese occupation of Tibet.

Also the Chinese and the Russian government threatening the US with a new arms race if we ever got a working missile "defense" system is not telling me that they are thinking about peace with the US, not in the least. Much more so when they are working on upgrading their own missile systems and trying to get them to space. The Chinese space program is under the control of the PLA and its under the command of PLA General Li Janai, and its not for peaceful intentions.

As I stated in the previous post even communist countries have to change some to keep up with the rest of the world.

[edit on 22-6-2004 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by Muaddib
I was born outside of the US. I was born in a communist country as I have stated before and lived there until I was 8 years old. I still have family there even thou my parents and I left in 1980 to Spain where our other side of our family claimed us from, when it was still possible to do so, and even then it took years and lots of money from them for us to be able to leave Cuba. I lived and was raised in Spain for almost 10 years and came to the States when i was 17 years old in 1989. I went to visit my family in Cuba in 2001 and things are much worse than they used to be. Castro is just playing it smart with many countries and getting the UN to somehow back him up as the UN itself has countries which are also dictatorships, despotats and some of them communist too.

Do I personally know what is happening in China from a first person view? no. But I have seen that the Chinese government has changed in its politics just enough to be able to gain an advantage through capitalism, while still remaining as a communist country.

The Chinese government still wanting a nation that was never really theirs, saying that Taiwan is part of China, that the Chinese government would never accept its independance, and that they would go to war to stop this tells me that the Chinese government has not changed much from what it used to be, like the Chinese occupation of Tibet.

Also the Chinese and the Russian government threatening the US with a new arms race if we ever got a working missile "defense" system is not telling me that they are thinking about peace with the US, not in the least. Much more so when they are working on upgrading their own missile systems and trying to get them to space. The Chinese space program is under the control of the PLA and its under the command of PLA General Li Janai, and its not for peaceful intentions.

As I stated in the previous post even communist countries have to change some to keep up with the rest of the world.

[edit on 22-6-2004 by Muaddib]

My apology for saying that you know communist countries only by theory.

And you are partially right about China's government, who while is adopting market economics, still try to keep their anthorition. I say "partially" because even that I believe is changing. See, there is not an individual like Castro or Chairman Mao leading the country, as a party, there a big group of people, some are more conventional, others are more opening to change and better systems...

Anyway, feel free to criticize anything about our government ------------------------

except Taiwan and Tibet.

That is not about communist or government. That is about a nation and its people as a whole. I am sorry, call me opinioned, but that is something cant be negotiated or comprimised. I am serious. I am not a fan of wars however if I am in China and war happens in Taiwan strait, I am willing to go to the field.

I am sorry if I sounds not too friendly on this one, maybe I could explain later how Chinese people feel about it. What I can tell you now based on myselve and the majority people I know of, is China will never give up Taiwan no matter what happens even a war against UN or world war the third.

Originally posted by Wild_Sunflower
....... is China will never give up Taiwan no matter what happens even a war against UN or world war the third.

Taiwan and most of the Taiwanese people want to be independant of China, so as you can see there will most probably be a war between China and Taiwan, just like Chinese officials have said, but they have also said that a war with the US is inevitable no matter what happens....so...there you have it.

Its a shame really, China has enough lands, but still they want more... They actually want in on the economy of Taiwan and this is why the Chinese government don't want the "declaration of independance of Taiwan."

BTW...Tibet was a country of its own, with its own military even thou it was small.... this is why it has a name of its own and it has never been known as "China." Just because people in Tibet are of the same race as the Chinese does not mean they are of the same country.... The same with the Taiwanese.....

[edit on 23-6-2004 by Muaddib]

Well let me just at least clarify one thing to you. Taiwan is not "a nation that was never really theirs". This is kinda ignorance of both historic and present facts. I mean man, if you guys really care our business at least do a little study....

It's really late, I need go. I saw somewhere on this forum someone has put a brief history about the island that you could find yourself. As to today, both UN and American government (and other more than 100 countries) acknowledge one China and "Taiwan is a part of China".

A small overview of the history of Taiwan.

" Pr� - 1600s

Originally, Taiwan was settled by people of Malay-Polynesian descent, who initially inhabited the low-lying coastal plains. They called their island Pakan. Here is a detail of an old Dutch navigational map with this name on it.

The 17th Century

Interestingly enough, the most comprehensive historical records on Taiwan go back some 350 years, to the period of the Dutch occupation, 1624-1662. When the Dutch East Indies Company arrived, they found only the aborigine population on the island: there were no signs of any administrative structure of the Chinese Imperial Government. Thus, at that time Taiwan was not "part of China". As is seen on a map of those days, it is shown in a different color.

................

From the 1680s to the 1880s

However, the new Manchu emperors were not eager to extend their rule over the island. They were "inland" people with little knowledge of the offshore islands and even less skill at naval warfare.

In the subsequent years, immigration to the island from the coastal provinces of China increased, but the people came to flee the wars and famines on the mainland, and did not come on behalf of the rulers in Peking.

The 19th Century

That China hardly had any influence in the coastal waters around Taiwan is apparent from the two following examples: when in the 1870's Taiwanese pirates captured American, Japanese and French ships passing the island, these governments protested to Peking, but the Manchu emperor said: "Taiwan is beyond our territory."

The Taiwan Republic

The Taiwanese didn't like the idea of incorporation into Japan, and on 25 May 1895 -- with the assistance of disenchanted Manchu officials -- the Taiwan Republic, the first independent republic in Asia was established. Here is the flag of the new nation."



Excerpted from.
www.taiwandc.org...

Taiwan, was never part of China, until the occupation of the Chinese nationalists. there was supposed to be a temporary occupation....

BTW, you should read this.
Treaty of Shimonoseki
In this treaty China gave Taiwan to Japan in perpetuity which is forever.... China has no real claim on Taiwan.


100 years Shimonoseki anniversary in Taipei: "Goodbye to China."


[edit on 23-6-2004 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by Muaddib

Originally posted by Wild_Sunflower
....... is China will never give up Taiwan no matter what happens even a war against UN or world war the third.

Taiwan and most of the Taiwanese people want to be independant of China, so as you can see there will most probably be a war between China and taiwan, just like Chinese officials have said, but they have also said that a war with the US is inevitable no matter what happens....so...there you have it.

Its a shame really, China has enough lands, but still they want more... They actually want in on the economy of Taiwan and this is why the Chinese government don't want the "declaration of independance of Taiwan."

You don't know what you are talking about man, you really don't.

It's a big joke you said about we want more land and taiwan's economics. Try find something else if you really want to understand, if you can not or wll not, it's OK, just don't been soon sure about "land" and "economics".....

And you don't know if "most of the Taiwanese people want to be independant of China", well I also dont, so lets not be so sure on that one either. One more thing, a war with US is inevitable ONLY if US attack PLA first, that I think is our priciple.

out
--->bed

" In Taiwan today, fewer and fewer people see themselves as Chinese. According to an annual poll taken by Taipei's Chengchi University, the proportion of Taiwan's residents who consider themselves exclusively Chinese has plummeted to 10% from 26% in 1992, while the number who think of themselves as exclusively "Taiwanese" has jumped to 42% from 17%. Meanwhile, a November poll by the island's Mainland Affairs Council reveals a similarly negative response to China's only model for reunification: the Hong Kong formula of "one country, two systems." Just 7% of respondents found that formulation acceptable, while 71% considered it unsuitable for Taiwan. "

Excerpted from.
www.time.com...


" The opening of formal transport links with China is limited to Quemoy and Matsu. Direct travel from Taiwan's main island is still prohibited by Taipei. Although China's communist rulers have never governed Taiwan, they claim it as part of their territory and threaten to use military force if it insists on pressing its independent statehood.

Taiwanese hope that even yesterday's small opening will stabilise their problematic relationship with China. They also hope it will put a damper on the booming illicit trade in seafood, produce and consumer goods between the islands and the mainland, so that legitimate business and investment take over. "

Excerpted from.
www.guardian.co.uk...

[edit on 23-6-2004 by Muaddib]

First, the history thing.

Muaddib, I am familiar with the document you posted. It is the version of history that is pasted all over Taiwan independance websites and propagated amongst DPP circles. The Chinese however, including a very large chunk of Taiwanese, have a different take on it. As a passionate student of Chinese history, I am to say that sorry the claim that there was no history prior to the Portuguese arrival apart from a few half-naked poleynesian 'savages' is complete bull. My take on it is as follows:

Taiwan was never as fully and completely controlled by the Chinese imperial authorities as the document below (by the Chinese government) might assert... Nevertheless there is ample historical proof that in the national consciousness of China, Taiwan was included early on:

- historical proof exists as to the administrative structures that were in place well before the arrival of the Europeans, as early as the Song...

- Koxinga, the Ming loyalist he was not made up and really did kick out the Dutch while fleeing from the Qing

- when the western powers enlisted China's support against the Axis forces, part of the Potsdam Declaration was that China would reassert its sovereignty over all the parts of Chinese territory, include Penghu... and Taiwan. Even the US recognized Taiwan as part of China until the mainland started being controlled ... by Mao.

Check for the official Chinese government stance, read both sides of the propaganda and then make up your mind. But please bear in mind that what you posted is also complete DPP propaganda and that many Taiwanese themselves would laugh if you made them read it...

Here is an excerpt from
chineseculture.about.com...

Again this is the OTHER SIDE'S PROPAGANDA. Bear in mind that history is always written to suit one's political motives...

Taiwan has belonged to China since ancient times. It was known as Yizhou or Liuqiu in antiquities. Many historical records and annals documented the development of Taiwan by the Chinese people in earlier periods. References to this effect were to be found, among others, in the Seaboard Geographic Gazetteer compiled more than 1,700 years ago by Shen Ying of the State of Wu during the period of the Three Kingdoms. This was the world's earliest written account of Taiwan.

Several expeditions, each numbering over ten thousand men, had been sent to Taiwan by the State of Wu (third century A.D.) and the Sui Dynasty (seventh century A.D.) respectively. Since the early seventeenth century the Chinese people began to step up the development of Taiwan. Their numbers topped one hundred thousand at the end of the century. By 1893 (19th year of the reign of Qing Emperor Guangxu) their population exceeded 2.54 million people in 507,000 or more households. That was a 25-fold increase in 200 years. They brought in a more advanced mode of production and settled the whole length and breadth of Taiwan. Thanks to the determined efforts and hard toil of the pioneers, the development of the island as a whole greatly accelerated.

From the very beginning the Taiwan society derived from the source of the Chinese cultural tradition. This basic fact had not changed even during the half century of Japanese occupation. The history of Taiwan's development is imbued with the blood, sweat, and ingenuity of the Chinese people including the local ethnic minorities.

Chinese governments of different periods set up administrative bodies to exercise jurisdiction over Taiwan. As early as in the mid-12th century the Song Dynasty set up a garrison in Penghu, putting the territory under the jurisdiction of Jinjiang County of Fujian's Quanzhou Prefecture. The Yuan Dynasty installed an agency of patrol and inspection in Penghu to administer the territory. During the mid- and late 16th century the Ming Dynasty reinstated the once abolished agency and sent reinforcements to Penghu in order to ward off foreign invaders. In 1662 (first year of the reign of Qing Emperor Kangxi) General Zheng Chenggong (known in the West as Koxinga) instituted Chengtian Prefecture on Taiwan.

Subsequently, the Qing government expanded the administrative structure in Taiwan, thereby strengthening its rule over the territory. In 1684 (23rd year of the reign of Emperor Kangxi) a Taiwan-Xiamen Patrol Command and a Taiwan Prefecture Administration were set up under the jurisdiction of Fujian Province. These in turn exercised jurisdiction over three counties on the island: Taiwan (present-day Tainan), Fengshan (present-day Gaoxiong) and Zhuluo (present-day Jiayi). In 1714 (53rd year of the reign of Emperor Kangxi) the Qing government ordered the mapping of Taiwan to determine its size. In 1721 (60th year of the reign of Emperor Kangxi) an office of imperial supervisor in charge of inspecting Taiwan was created and the Taiwan-Xiamen Patrol Command was renamed Prefecture Administration of Taiwan and Xiamen, incorporating the subsequently-created Zhanghua County and Danshui Canton.

In 1727 (5th year of the reign of Emperor Yongzheng) the administration on the island was reconstituted as the Prefecture Administration of Taiwan (which was later renamed Prefecture Command for Patrol of Taiwan) and incorporated the new Penghu Canton. The territory then became officially known as Taiwan. In order to upgrade the administration of Taiwan, the Qing government created Taibei Prefecture, Jilong Canton and three counties of Danshui, Xinzhu and Yilan in 1875 (1st year of the reign of Emperor Guangxu). In 1885 (11th year of the reign of Emperor Guangxu), the government formally made Taiwan a full province covering three prefectures and one subprefecture and incorporating 11 counties and 5 cantons. Liu Mingchuan was appointed first Governor of Taiwan. During his tenure of office, railways were laid, mines opened, telegraph service installed, merchant ships built, industries started and new-style schools set up. Considerable social, economic and cultural advancement in Taiwan was achieved as a result.

After the Chinese people's victory in the war against Japanese aggression in 1945, the Chinese government reinstated its administrative authority in Taiwan Province. Chinese on both sides of the Taiwan Straits carried out a prolonged, unremitting struggle against foreign invasion and occupation of Taiwan. Since the late 15th century Western colonialists started to grab and conquer colonies in a big way. In 1624 (4th year of the reign of Ming Emperor Tianqi) Dutch colonialists invaded and occupied the southern part of Taiwan. Two years later Spanish colonialists seized the northern part of Taiwan. In 1642 (15th year of the reign of Ming Emperor Chongzhen) the Dutch evicted the Spaniards and took over north Taiwan. The Chinese people on both sides of the Straits waged various forms of struggle including armed insurrections against the invasion and occupation of Taiwan by foreign colonialists.

In 1661 (18th year of the reign of Qing Emperor Shunzhi) General Zheng Chenggong (Koxinga) led an expedition to Taiwan and expelled the Dutch colonialists from the island in the following year. Japan launched a war of aggression against China in 1894 (20th year of the reign of Qing Emperor Guangxu). In the ensuing year, as a result of defeat the Qing government was forced to sign the Treaty of Shimonoseki, ceding Taiwan to Japan. This shocked the whole nation and touched off a storm of protests. A thousand or more candidates from all 18 provinces including Taiwan who had assembled in Beijing for the Imperial Examination signed a strongly-worded petition opposing the ceding of Taiwan. In Taiwan itself, people wailed and bemoaned the betrayal and went on general strikes. General Liu Yongfu and others of the garrison command stood with Taiwan compatriots and put up a fierce fight against the Japanese landing forces.

To support this struggle, people on the mainland, particularly in the southeastern region, showed their solidarity by generous donations or organizing volunteers to Taiwan to fight the Japanese forces. Taiwan compatriots never ceased their dauntless struggle throughout the Japanese occupation. Initially, they formed insurgent groups to wage guerrilla warfare for as long as seven years. When the Revolution of 1911 overthrew the Qing monarchy they in turn lent support to their mainland compatriots by staging more than a dozen armed insurrections. The 1920s and 1930s witnessed surging waves of mass action sweeping across the island against Japanese colonial rule.

In 1937 the Chinese people threw themselves into an all-out war of resistance against Japanese aggression. In its declaration of war against Japan, the Chinese Government proclaimed that all treaties, conventions, agreements, and contracts regarding relations between China and Japan, including the Treaty of Shimonoseki, had been abrogated. The declaration stressed that China would recover Taiwan, Penghu and the four northeastern provinces. After eight years of grueling war against Japanese aggression the Chinese people won final victory and recovered the lost territory of Taiwan in 1945. Taiwan compatriots displayed an outburst of passion and celebrated the great triumph of their return to the fold of the motherland by setting off big bangs of fireworks and performing rites to communicate the event to their ancestors.

China wants an arms race? Come on...

Painting China as an aggressive warmonger shows the symptoms of a clouded mind, basing itself on media spin and not on historical or foreign policy analysis. Americans wake up! Don't let the military-industrial complex dictate what you think.

The next arms race of the future, if it takes place, will be in space. All you need to do is refer to the Dubya strategy (missile shield and other goodies, like lasers that can shoot down satellites). China has actively been opposed to such a project, trying everything bith within the UN and outside to secure an international treaty banning weapons in space. Thanks to opposition fro mteh US, this never worked and they now have created their own space warfare agency.

"Weapons in space are likely to be politically destabilizing. They may threaten the commercial, scientific, and military use of space, all without clearly reaping their intended security benefits. The international community, notably including Russia and China, Canada, and the countries of the European Union, supports creating a treaty to ban weapons from outer space. Serious multilateral discussion about "rules of the road" for space is needed."

www.ucsusa.org...

"Russia, China Make New Push To Ban Arms in Space Over U.S. Objections

In a challenge to Bush administration plans for a missile defense shield, China and Russia on Thursday submitted a joint proposal to the Conference on Disarmament for a new international treaty to ban weapons in outer space a plan rejected by the United States."

www.space.com...

Analyze foreign policy. Learn about Chinese history. In it's 5,000 years, China has invaded less countries than the US in its short history. Chinese foreign policy has traditionnally been geared towards defending the country from invading hordes of Jurchens, Manchurians (who invaded and then became Sinicized!) Japanese, western powers and more. The recent invasion of Vietnam for a short time after the US left in the seventies is a notable exception... As for Tibet... well the Chinese consider it to be part of the mainland, that in itself may be debatable. But the fact that China's has a defensive foreign policy based on multilateralism policy is not.

No arms race please! Americans, you have the power to avoid this and craft a better world order. Do it!

Analyst...you are spinning around the history to fit your, or the Chinese government, view on Taiwan.

"Taiwan has been populated for approximately 50,000 years. Little is known about the original inhabitants, but distinctive jadeware, and corded pottery of the Beinan, Chilan and Tapenkeng cultures show a marked diversity in the island's early inhabitants. Today's Taiwan's aboriginal peoples, are classified as belonging to the Austronesian ethno-linguistic group of people, a linguistic group that stretches as far west as Madagascar, to Easter Island in the east and to New Zealand in the south with Taiwan as the northern most point.

Some Chinese nationalists claim that significant migration to Taiwan from the Chinese mainland by Han Chinese began as early as 500 AD, though such assertions are based upon weak historical evidence, and neither the People's Republic of China nor do Chinese nationalists of the Republic of China officially base their claims that Taiwan is part of China on those assertions."

Excerpted from.
www.nationmaster.com...

You are saying to the American people to wake up...that there is a propaganda in the media.... Of course China is going to try to cloud history with their own view on their "history" if it fits their goals...

I say to you to wake up and do not follow in the communist regime of China, or their web of lies trying to accomplish their goals. This reminds me of the Chinese claiming their regional borders to be farther out than any other country, including claiming regional waters that belong to other countries... another attempt by the Chinese to take control of other countries regional waters or lands...

You say that China is a peaceful country....please... Tiananmen Square should have told you otherwise...now they are trying to silence the independance of Taiwan...and the Chinese has said that they would go to war for it. They did the same to Tibet and now want to do it to Taiwan. Tibet was a sovereign nation for hundreds of years before the 1949-1950 Chinese occupation.

The Chinese government have been trying to expand their lands and rule since time immemorial, and even today they are doing the same.

BTW, your take on it and your supposed "knowledge of Taiwan's history" was completly excerpted from a Chinese website, which you posted but did not explain that was entirely excerpted from that site....

[edit on 25-6-2004 by Muaddib]

Here is an excerpt as to why Bush has agreed on building a missile defense system.

" The United States is currently attempting to develop several components of a missile defense system designed to protect U.S. territory from attack by long-range (strategic) ballistic missiles.

Under the Bush administration, missile defenses have received $7 billion to $9 billion annually, and the FY05 budget request is more than $10 billion. In December 2002, the Bush administration announced that it would deploy the first phase of a rudimentary missile defense system by the time of the 2004 presidential elections�even though the system is in the very early stages of testing.

The system the Bush administration plans to deploy by 2004 will have essentially no defense capability. The technology needed for an effective missile defense system still doesn't exist. All the systems being developed are in early stages of research and development, and will have undergone only rudimentary testing by the time they will be fielded in 2004-2006."

Excerpted from.
www.ucsusa.org...

Now lets see since when the Chinese have been trying to get a missile defense system.

"Most interesting, however, is the (admittedly little) light shed on China�s own ballistic missile programs, which around 1964, when Chairman Mao ordered a long term BMD research. According to various sources cited, the program included a team of 8-10 scientists, a cost of some $100 million dollars, is described as having paralleled U.S. and Soviet research during the period, until Deng Xiaping allegedly cancelled the program in 1983. Another source cited, however, claims that there was a Program 640 which set out to field a viable defense which included �a kinetic kill vehicle, a high powered laser, space early warning, and target discrimination system components.� The study also notes that Secretary McNamara apparently hinted at such Chinese BMD developments in 1966. There is also evidence that China was weighing both a land-based defense and a space based defense in the 1980s."

Excerpted from.
www.missilethreat.com...

We can see that the Chinese have been working on getting their own missile defense system for a long time.

Now lets see what the Russians are doing about their own missile defense system...

" RUSSIA IS ENHANCING ITS MISSILE DEFENSE CAPACITIES. TWO UNIQUE MISSILE ATTACK WARNING SYSTEM FACILITIES WENT INTO SERVICE IN 2002. EXISTING HARDWARE, THOUGH AGING, CAN STILL COMPETE SUCCESSFULLY WITH NEWER HARDWARE ELSEWHERE AROUND THE WORLD. REFORMS OF THE SPACE TROOPS WILL BE COMPLETED BY 2005.

The shock means of the Russian missile defense system are in full operational readiness for the immediate repulse of a missile attack. The two facilities of the missile attack warning system (MAWS) that were put into operation in 2002 will contribute to that too. This is what Russian Space Troops Commander Anatoly Perminov said at a news conference."

Excerpted from.
www.cdi.org...

Lets see something more up to date, since the above article is from January 2003...

" In response to the question, of whether �Russia is totally opposed to building missile defense systems,� Baluyevsky responded that this was clearly not the case:

No, Russia is not against missile defense. Moreover, Russia is the only country to possess a missile defense system already. Built in accordance with the ABM Treaty of 1972, it is combat-ready� We have only one objective. We advocate missile defense systems that will ensure protection against single launches, not mass strikes. We mean protection from any missiles that may end up in the hands of international terrorists. At present, neither the Russian missile defense system nor the one the United States is building will provide protection against mass strikes. At the same time, we are opposed to missile defense systems that may pose a threat to Russia or devalue its arsenals. I�m talking about the strategic arsenals. Our objective is simple and clear, I think. All our actions, including actions in connection with the appearance of missile defense systems in other countries, aim to maintain Russia�s capacity to do unacceptable damage to an aggressor, no matter where the aggressor is.

As Baluyevsky noted�but NTI did not�Russia continues to maintain and advance the extensive missile defense system of the Soviet Union."

Excerpted from.
missilethreat.com...

humm, the above is from February 2004. So now the Russians are saying that they are not against a missile defense system? But that was not what they said in 2002... in the article which Analyst posted....


[edit on 25-6-2004 by Muaddib]

Muaddib, you accused me of spinning history.

"Analyst...you are spinning around the history to fit your, or the Chinese government, view on Taiwan."

I thought I was pretty clear in articulating that the document I posted was indeed the official Chinese view on the Taiwan question. If I wasn't I apologize and wish to make that clear. It is the Chinese government view.

The reason I posted this is for you to realize that both sides are manipulating history and using it to further their political agenda. Yet you still cling to the cliche that Taiwan has always been some kind of an independant "country". Why do you favor one view of history over the other? Why should the US-DPP version be true 'history' and the Chinese version be lies? You haven't convinced me of your position. My view on this question is based not on government propaganda from either side but field research in both countries.

And by the way, I'm not a die-hard Chinese government supporter. I think Mao was a disaster for China for example, and so do many Chinese by the way.

You also said:
"The Chinese government have been trying to expand their lands and rule since time immemorial, and even today they are doing the same."

Please provide concrete examples "in times immemorial". I am familiar with the Spratley islands deal - the objective here is not expanding territory but gaining control over oil. China is not the only country involved, so are Vietnam, the Philippines and Indonesia. In my eyes no one really has a solid claim on these islands, they are just going for the resource. This you cannot compare to aggressive expansion through conquest and militarism. There is no territory involved in Spratly, the islands are tiny.

As for Tibet and Taiwan they are not good examples simply because in the Chinese psyche, they are part of the motherland. I don't necessarily agree with the Chinese on this matter, particularly over Tibet (primarily because even though Tibetans paid a tribute to the Emperor, they were de-facto independant). For the Chinese, the claims over Taiwan and Tibet are the last phase of surmounting one hundred years of humiliation and shame in the hands of foreign powers, you cannot equate this with territorial expansion. It's just not the same thing as willingly and knowingly invading a FOREIGN land the way the US did in Porto Rico, Grenada, the Philippines, Iraq.

You need to provide me with clear examples of how China seeks (and sought) to expand it's territory through conquest and military rule.

One more thing about Taiwan. My biggest obstacle to agreeing with your views is that I lived there for nearly two years, extensively mingling with a wide range of locals and gathering their opinions on these issues. Now I know you will ask for some kind of 'proof' and I do not have the time right now to do extensive net research... but let me remind that the statistics you posted do not 'prove' anything. Statistics and surveys are manipulted as well, as you well know in the US gun-control debate both sides had reliable stats that showed gun ownership as both a) reducing crime rate or b) heightening the crime rate.

If you go there and speak to the people however you will notice the following:

1) There is no such a thing as 'Taiwanese culture.' There are minority cultures (from the mainland mostly, like Fujian province). Apart from those, the main culture and language in Taiwan are predominantly Chinese. The unifying language spoken by all is putonghua, just like on the mainland. Taiwan has not adopted the simplified character script and writes with the 'fan ti zi' (traditional characters used on the mainland prior Mao's reforms in this field) but it is the same language.

2) Cultural attributes such as food and music and social mores are predominantly Chinese. Just like in China, family is very important In Taiwan, so is guanxi, being a virgin before marriage (for women) etc...

3) Most people I met did not consider themselves Taiwanese. Only those whose families have been on the island for hundred of years tend to say that, and they are few, located in the south close to Kaoshiung. People usually say: I'm a Chinese girl/guy, that is my culture. Alternatively, a few like my girlfriend identify themselves with their minority groups, particularly the Hakka people. They are Hakka as opposition to Chinese, but they certainly do not say: "I am Taiwanese."

4) The 'Taiwan national consciousness' is consciously being crafted by the DPP and the media. It is not a historic fact, but a determinate and targeted government strategy that aims to foster a sense of national identity. To a certain extent it works, albeit partially. What this indicates is that there was no 'Taiwan national identity' prior to it.

5) Most Taiwanese just want the status quo. They are afraid of CHANGE. They want a good economy. Good jobs. They want to keep the microchips factories. You ask them if they want independance: most will say no, because they know that would create huge problems and they don't really see the point in doing that. But also, they don't want to get bullied around by China, because the are also afraid of Beijing. So they play the independance card as a way of keeping the STATUS QUO.

You want my opinion?
That Taiwan question will not be resolved through guns or a few politicians comparing the sizes of their penises. The ECONOMY is the key. If things continue the way they do, with Taiwan becoming increasingly reliant on China (China being the #1 destination for Taiwan foreign direct investment today since a couple of years ago) and that is the key factor here. I think that sooner or later, Taipei will have to sit at the negotiating table with China because it will have no choice. Taipei is presently refusing to do so, and I think that is harming Taiwan's long term interest. Indeed, If Taipei starts talking to the Chinese they can deal with many bargaining chips in their hands (all the technology and modern industries / know-how). If they wait for another ten years, China will have caught-up already and they will hold a lot less weight in any negotiations. More and more Taiwanese I have spoken with recognize this and are becoming uneasy with Chen Sui Bians vocal independance stance.

So why do you think Chen inaugurational speech a few months ago was so muted? After talking independance during the campaign, he didn't even mention it in the speech. It's because he recognizes that independance is a deeply divisive issue in Taiwan.

Please take these factors in consideration when you speak for Taiwanese people and say that: 'the Taiwanese want independance'. It's just not that simple.

Originally posted by Analyst
Muaddib, you accused me of spinning history.

"Analyst...you are spinning around the history to fit your, or the Chinese government, view on Taiwan."

I thought I was pretty clear in articulating that the document I posted was indeed the official Chinese view on the Taiwan question. If I wasn't I apologize and wish to make that clear. It is the Chinese government view.

As for Tibet and Taiwan they are not good examples simply because in the Chinese psyche, they are part of the motherland. I don't necessarily agree with the Chinese on this matter, particularly over Tibet (primarily because even though Tibetans paid a tribute to the Emperor, they were de-facto independant). For the Chinese, the claims over Taiwan and Tibet are the last phase of surmounting one hundred years of humiliation and shame in the hands of foreign powers, you cannot equate this with territorial expansion. It's just not the same thing as willingly and knowingly invading a FOREIGN land the way the US did in Porto Rico, Grenada, the Philippines, Iraq.

You need to provide me with clear examples of how China seeks (and sought) to expand it's territory through conquest and military rule.

You responded to your own question, China invaded Tibet, no matter what excuses you, or the Chinese, want to give. Tibet was no threat at all to China, the same is happening with Taiwan. BTW you just gave the official "Chinese view," you did not link or gave any non-biased information on Taiwanese history.
Humm, and did you say that the US invaded Puerto Rico?......i think you have lived too long in China.
The Philippines has also a government and are a country appart from the US.....



Note it says "Philippine government."

You are obviously twisting again everything around....is Iraq part of the US now? when did this happen? I wasn't even aware of this...

With the exception of Puerto Rico, none of those countries that you mentioned are part of the US. BTW if I remember correctly Puerto Rico held a vote throughout the island on whether or not they wanted to be part of the US.....It was done through a democratic process, the people wanted this.... I hardly call that an invasion. Lets see if China would do the same....

Ok, why would China want to destroy the U.S.? That makes absolutely no sense. If the U.S. falls, China falls with us. We support roughly 30% of their economy, they have no reason to see us destroyed. Plus, aiding terrorists would hurt them far worse than it would hurt us. Do you not realize how many muslims live in China? The Mongolian territories are full of them, most of them pretty fundamentalist. That's why China hasn't made any outward stances against the Taliban, but nonetheless are very wary of them.

Bottomline: China doesn't want to destroy the U.S., and doesn't want to help terrorists. The whole idea is just insane.

Of course Iraq is a possesion of the US. Colin Powell acknowledged this fact even prior to the invasion and subsequent occupation with his statement to the president, "You break it, you bought it".

What could be more clear?
.


[edit on 14-7-2004 by df1]

The Chinese Central Bureau just announced the vision to peacefully unify with Taiwan around 2020.

If Taiwan do not seek Independence. There is actually no urgency to China to unify Taiwan. The democrazy test is very good for future democratic governance in China.

But if Taiwan is seeking formal Independence, China will have no choice but attack. Even if the leader do not want to attack, Chinese people will bring him done soon.