Which was first Time or Universe?

Ok, im sick of this. Look...time existed before the Universe began. The creation of the Universe didn't "create" time, it created movement, heat, motion, points of observation, distance and the measurements we use to confirm time.

If you sat in the void outside the singular point or swirling mass that existed before creation, and had a watch, time would work. You would mark down second by second, year by billion the year, that creation went from non-movement and/or gravitational pull of all forces to the current Universe.

It would flow. From almost nothing (if not actually nothing) to movement to full on casual time observation. The only thing the creation of the Universe heralded was movement in which time could be measured by instruments within itself.

Time doesn't stop for the watch frozen solid in an ice cube. It just seems like it doesn't for the watch.

Now some of you may claim "time only exists with light. And we know, because we can't see farther than 13.4 billion years, that light did not exist. Just because I can't comprehend the universe without time does not mean time existed before the universe began."

But time is a measurement. Time isn't matter. So confusing measuring the speed of light WITH time itself will not help. Does that mean Time existed before big bang?

time never existed, humans invented time to measure different things that occur throughout our lives (in a very simplistic way i explained this) as you said time is a measurement, its like asking did centimeters exist before the big bang? Well Sorta, their was things that COULD be measured in centimeters probably, but the concept is man made, just like their was things before humans existed that you could use time to measure, (how long the sun will come up/go down) but we didn't apply it yet. I know were your coming from but your question just doesn't make enough sence IMO because of the true meaning of tim
e.

[edit on 3-7-2010 by R2JEW2]

Time has always been there, just not observed. You can measure time by the movement of an object (rotation, etc.). If there is no movement, time is not measurable, but it is still there. You also need another variable, a living being to be able to perceive that time. If it is not observed, you might as well say it is not there.

reply to post by Phlynx


reply to post by R2JEW2


Time is measurement i.e, free flow of motion and energy exchange is what you're talking about. A measure is not magically gone just because what it's measuring is. Even if there was no one there to see time or no watch available doesn't mean time didn't existed then.

Originally posted by Phlynx
If there is no movement, time is not measurable, but it is still there.

So if it's still there doesn't it mean time existed then.

You also need another variable, a living being to be able to perceive that time. If it is not observed, you might as well say it is not there.

see this

Time doesn't stop for the watch frozen solid in an ice cube. It just seems like it doesn't for the watch.

This is what you call a loaded question.

The qualifier "first" requires time as an attribute and skews the scenario.

It is a very interesting question though.

Do centimeters exis? Does time exist? (these are questions to get you to think about why were even debating this)

Answer: The Universe! Time is relative and cannot exist outside of physical matter as it is physical matter that creates the mechanism upon which time is built.

Originally posted by kozmo
Answer: The Universe! Time is relative and cannot exist outside of physical matter as it is physical matter that creates the mechanism upon which time is built.

Which is odd. As time is a measurement. You are talking about things that can help TO measure time, not time itself.

You understand that a watch isn't actually time, right? That it measures a set amount of turns of a material device that is then displayed through a system upon its surface.

No actual time is flowing through it. Just as if that watch stopped, time keeps going so time does not have anything to do with physical matter.

[edit on 3-7-2010 by name pending]

Using the term "first", already implies that time is "first". But it wasn't, at least according to the various Big Bang theories.

According to the idea that the Universe "exploded" out of a singularity, both matter and time "simultaneously" are eternally emergent from that "point". That point, by definition, is beyond time, time doesn't apply "there". But then, also by definition, there is no "there" either. Welcome to the conundrum of cosmological thinking!

The creationist thinker might say that time was created WITH the Universe, but the fact is, matter, energy, space and time are all intimately "entangled". Actually, that's the word used often when dealing with reality at the quantum level.

You'll probably have a physicist here soon to explain it all so much better, but I'm not sure anything is ever satisfying, because our intuitions are just too mundane, compared to the reality beneath it all. No one is able to grasp in any real way what is observed at the subatomic level (yet?), and probably until then, people will just have to rely on their imaginations.

JR

Interesting question.

I always thought though that nothing existed before the singularity/big bang thing? No time or not anything? So you couldn't be outside of it, watching?

Now you've got me thinking.


[color=C6AEC7]Things like this make my head hurt, but I still like reading about them.




[edit on 3-7-2010 by tappy]

Time is not a form of measurement.

Time is the medium which makes all other forms of measurement Possible.

Our (human) perception of Time is relative, but Time, itself, is an Absolute, at least as far as its "cosmological essence" is concerned.

Without Time, the Universe, as we perceive it, and even as we currently conceive of it in our physics, could not exist.

Furthermore, the "cosmological essence" of Time, of which I refer to, is not relayed by the mechanism on your wrist. The Time of which I speak is a fundemental, and most importantly, Idivisable element of not just the physical universe, but of the structure which allows both the universe and The Universe to exist.


In this context, Time is not the linear experience we are all so familiar with and, indeed, dependent upon. In the context of which I am speaking, Time is a whole, without the (human) constraints of Past, Present, or Future.


In this context, Time is the omnipresent NOW.


Always and forever.

If you sat in the void outside the singular point or swirling mass that existed before creation

Therein lies the flaw. There was NOTHING before the Big Bang, not even a "void", for there to be space must mean there was something physical occupying that area. Afterall darkness is just a absence of Light even in the Vacuum of space.

The Big Bang contemporary can't be seen as a explosion from the Outside, as by the theory, there was no "outside"

time does not exist without the Universe..............

However you want to perceive the time......

I myself think the Universe would not exist without life.....

For it seems its design has a important degree to our lives.............

Yet perhaps we would not exist without the universe, and we need the universe for life........



great now I have a headache....

Time does not exist , in and of itself .
Time and space are one , and of , the same .
There is no time , without space , and there is no space without time .
Neither exist anywhere other than in our feeble understanding of the terms 'now' and 'is' .

There is nothing other than just 'being' .

S&F simply because it is a topic that I enjoy seeing both sides of the debate . This question will hopefully generate some critical thinking and commentary .



[edit on 3-7-2010 by okbmd]

without space, time cannot exist.

Without complex components to create within the space, the process of time will not nor does not exist, for nothing moves, nothing is nothing.

So far , I've starred every post on this thread .

So far , everyone has been right . There is no wrong answer to this question .

double dip .

[edit on 3-7-2010 by okbmd]

Time is the ENERGY, to run the universe...

time doesnt exist, only now exists, yesterday doesnt exist but it did, and tomorrow doesnt exist but it will, and before the universe was born something else was existing in its place, so time and the universe weren't first, somet else was